Talk:United Baltic Duchy

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No source published gives a name like "United Baltic Duchy" to this attempt to establish such a state. The article needs some attention.--Termer 00:58, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

This book makes a reference [1]. I have a copy of this boeok at home, so I will try to clean uo the article a bit tonight. Martintg 02:33, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

That's the thing Martintg, the "United Baltic Duchy" was nothing more than a proposal by Mecklenburg. Citation from the book you mentioned: p.48 ...but later an alternative proposal was advanced for a United Baltic Duchy under Duke Adolf Friedrich of Mecklenburg.' Shortly, the only reason the article doesn't have the hoax tag attached to it is because there was an attempt to set up a Baltic Duchy that was proclaimed by 35 Germans, 13 Estonians and 10 Latvians that later was attempted again by the Baltische Landeswehr...etc. But to call this a former country is as far out as a former country "Kingdom of Livonia". the "Kingdom of Livonia" at least existed in the minds of Magnus of Holstein and Ivan IV a bit more than this proposal...--Termer 07:00, 15 November 2007 (UTC).

PS. I'd rename this article: Baltic Duchy and go from there- a state proclaimed by 35 Germans, 13 Estonians and 10 Latvians during the WWI in German occupied Riga, Latvia on April 12, 1918 with Kaiser William II and later Adolf Friedrich of Mecklenburg as duke. A proposal for creating a United Baltic Duchy was forwarded by Mecklenburg...-> German revolution -the end of WWI , another attemt by Baltische Landeswehr during the Estonian War of Independence and Latvian War of Independence etc.--Termer 07:16, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it was never recognised as a real country, I don't think even the Kaiser recognised it at the time, it was just an action of some Baltic Germans to keep their top status. So I agree article needs a bit of rework. I found one other reference for "United Baltic Duchy" here [2], so probably the name is okay. Martintg 20:31, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Termer, think! Kaiser recognized sovereignty, Regency goverment was formed - and you still claim that the country never existed? Your attitude about this article puzzles me. Anchorite (talk) 14:13, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

REAnchorite: Kaiser recognized sovereignty? Really?, please provide a source that says so and I'd be happy to call this proposed state a former country. So far the only states acknowledged by the Kaiser in the area during the German occupation were proclaimed Duchy of Courland (Herzogtum Kurland) and the Baltic State duchy (Baltischer Staat). The duchies never united and no United Baltic Duchy was ever formed, the proposal made in the end of the WWI remained to be a proposal, nothing more. --Termer (talk) 18:38, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

PS. even the the Duchy of Courland (Herzogtum Kurland) and Baltic State duchy (Baltischer Staat) can't be called former countries since these were proclaimed vassal states of Germany in the German occupied territory during the WWI. A former country, as far as I'm concerned would be anything that has been at least recognized de jure and de facto as a sovereign state by somebody else than an effective occupying power at the territory.--Termer (talk) 18:51, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

The recognition document is well known in Estonia. Is this not published in memoirs by Eduard von Dellingshausen? Civis (talk) 11:55, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Just a note. Adding fake infoboxes to the article is going to make it into being from the series of Principality of Estland. Please also see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Principality of Estland. Thanks--Termer (talk) 05:00, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, should we remove the "Former countries WikiProject" from the talk page to avoid further insertions of this "Former country infobox" to the article?... since such a country like "United Baltic Duchy" never existed!--Termer (talk) 10:07, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Former Countries[edit]

This article is in the scope of WikiProject Former Countries. The project deals with all types of former political entities from empires and established former countries to proposed states and provisional governments. The infobox is part of the project and does not confer any status to the article, it is there to present information about the political entity. Any information which is not correct should be removed from the infobox, but removing the infobox based on personal opinion is not the way to go. -- Domino theory (talk) 10:13, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Since all the information is incorrect, the infobox is going to be removed. please feel free to provide any source that would back up any of those facts about "the political entity". The political entity didn't make it further than a verbal proposal. I'm going to cite the only source word by word as a reference if necessary. Thanks!--Termer (talk) 10:20, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

The infobox should only contain such information that is already verified in the text of the article. The same conditions applies to all work on Wikipedia, if it can not be supported by sources it should be disputed, and I take it that you are already familiar with that process. As you in no doubt are aware there is need of a comprehensive review of many similar articles relating to Estonia, and the Baltic region in general, and I look forward to see the articles that actually belongs here being improved. Cheers! -- Domino theory (talk) 10:44, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

The infobox should only contain such information that is already verified in the text of the article? that has been exactly the reason why I've been removing the infobox!--Termer (talk) 10:54, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Anything that is in the article can also be used in the infobox. Is that unclear? -- Domino theory (talk) 11:10, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok, got it, you must have never read the article or the infobox? United Baltic Duchy was an idea, never a state or a country that existed in reality. The declared Duchy of Courland and Semigallia (1918) and Baltic State duchy + the former Autonomous Governorate of Estonia that had declared independence right before the German occupation never were united into the Baltic Duchy. What has happened here most likely, somebody has mixed up the Baltic Duchy declared in Riga on March 3, 1918 with the proposal to create the United Duchy. Looking back to the history of the article, the beginning is actually factual and says it all there is to say about the subject. [3]--Termer (talk) 16:38, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

PS. The best joke in the article is that it claims ...nominally recognized as a sovereign state by Kaiser William II only on September 22, 1918 at the time when the idea of the United Baltic Duchy was only forwarded On November 5th, 1918, a temporary Regency Council was created of a Diet (General Provincial Assembly) for the former Baltic German provinces of Courland, Livonia and Estland, i.e. today's Latvia and Estonia, as the first step of forging a united "Baltic Duchy" under German aegis.--Termer (talk) 16:48, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

PPS. Do I need to point out that after the proposal to create such a United Duchy on November 5th the German Revolution and the defeat of Germany in the World War I followed right after. But still someone has managed to make the idea that lasted less than a month in the heads of about 10 people a "former country" on WP.--Termer (talk) 16:48, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

That's right, the United Baltic Duchy was no state at all, there was no capital, no borders, no flag, no parliament, no courts, no civil servants - it was just a proposal which failed. That's why the Infobox Former Country makes no sense in this article, because is suggests there have been some kind of state. I will remove it again. --Otberg (talk) 18:45, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

The other client states[edit]

During the World War I the German State helped to create or created on the former territory of Russia next client, puppet, or satellite, but nominally independent states:

Merry Christmas!

--Kidsunited (talk) 00:27, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Just making a note of this that Kidsunited has been identified as another sock of well known sockpuppet master Bloomfield whose strange agenda on WP has been creating articles about bogus states and their rulers. The pattern fits the edits done on United Baltic Duchy, a proposed state that never existed in reality, either as a client, puppet, satellite, or nominally independent state. Since the sources provided in the article are clear about it: The territories were under direct German military administration during the entire occupation until the power was handed over by the German Military to the national governments of Latvia and Estonia. There is nothing more to it. Merry Christmas!--Termer (talk) 04:44, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

The major problem with the infobox currently is that Courland was occupied in 1915, Estonia and Livonia in 1918. But the infobox only allows to have one year listed. Therefore it's currently 1915 even though it might be misleading. Any ideas are welcome. Thanks!--Termer (talk) 07:49, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Yea, military occupation for Estonia, that existed only one day before the occupation, and only on the paper, and the occupants didn't know the state exists. But for the United Baltic Duchy it wasn't an occupation, but a help (or intervention) by a friendly ally (Germany).--62.65.217.97 (talk) 14:18, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
I played with the infobox, it's too clever for its own good (reusing information multiple time). It looks like all that is possible (that is reliable) is to put in the widest date range (earliest occupied, last unoccupied) and then deal with sequences of events in the article lead. —PētersV (talk) 05:52, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Here is an idea for the infobox, since Duchy of Courland and Semigallia (1918) also suffers from the same problems like the article here used to be. The best would be to limit this for German Administered Estonia, Livonia in WWI (1918) and make the other one German Administered Courland in WWI (1915-1918)--Termer (talk) 20:15, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

There's probably sufficient difference in circumstances to split to separate articles. Any thoughts on where to pull this all together? —PētersV (talk) 20:43, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, since it was all pulled together after the Republic of Latvia and Estonia were established, there might be no reasons to pull together the proclaimed Duchy of Courland and the proclaimed Baltic Duchy in Livonia, Estonia under the German Occupation in WWI.--Termer (talk) 22:37, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

62.65...., Kidsunited, et al.[edit]

I'm quite tired of people edit warring by identifying reputable editors (in this case Termer) as committing "vandalism" when reverting edits of (euphemistically speaking) poor if not misguided editorial content. Since 62.65.* and blocked Kidsunited all appear to emanate from the same place, wholesale changes as have been done (and properly reverted) from those users/locations will simply continue to all be reverted as disruptive edits by a blocked user. If that's not sufficient, then I'll tag the article to request it be protected. —PētersV (talk) 05:18, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

P.S. The United Baltic Duchy a real country? Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania puppet states of the Germans? These are patently ridiculous contentions that might make for fascinating table talk, but not encyclopedia content. —PētersV (talk) 05:31, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Germans occupied the territory of Russia, not Latvia, because Latvia didn't exist before the occupation. And they occupied Estonia, but they didn't know Estonia exists because Estonia was proclaimed only one day earlier and nobody said them Estonia exists.
So they occupied the territory of Russia (and Estonia) and created the United Baltic Duchy, like for example Americans occupied Iraq and created the puppet Iraq which exists there now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.65.212.225 (talk) 21:08, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Oh please! As I said, interesting table talk and here with historically irrelevant and inaccurate comparisons (Baltics to Iraq) but not an encyclopedia article. I've requested page protection since you insist on continuing your conduct. —PētersV (talk) 21:13, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi PētersV, I don't think there would be any reasons to react to trolling. Since the only thing that matters are what the published sources say in the article instead of opinions of a troll who's known for creating fake states on WP. Thanks!--Termer (talk) 22:17, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I just asked for semi-protect to prevent anonymous IP edits, no impact on established accounts. Feeding the troll is continuing to indulge having to revert the edits. :-) —PētersV (talk) 22:21, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Article semi-protected for 10 days. —PētersV (talk) 05:01, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


Grand Duchy of Livonia[edit]

It seems more common name for this article might be the Grand Duchy of Livonia. It's been atemted twice in history to create such a state. First after Livonian War and secnd time during and right after WWI.

I'm taking those over here until someone can get it veryified according to WP:RS.--Termer (talk) 20:28, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

(German: Vereinigtes Baltisches Herzogtum [citation needed], Latvian: Apvienotā Baltijas hercogiste [citation needed], Estonian: Ühendatud Balti Hertsogiriik [citation needed])

OK it seems that User:Bloomfield has become active again. The best perhaps would be to get rid of the infobox all together since the imagined state never had any authority or territorial control therefore we can't talk about a former country. The only authority there was Ober Ost that ruled the territories during the German occupation. And the citation needed tags have been up there long enough so it's time to get rid of those sections as well. The maps are nice though, just that none of them refer to the United Duchy. The UK had recognized the republic of Estonia de facto on May 3 1918 that was followed by the recognition of France on May 13 and Italy on May 29. See Encyclopaedia Britannica. Therefore if anything, the maps refer to undefined borders of Estonia and Latvia.--Termer (talk) 00:55, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
That is correct; the maps do not refer to this state that never existed in real. There is the same problem in the german article. --Otberg (talk) 09:04, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
It shouldn't be a surprise because once it's about User:Bloomfield we're dealing with a master-creator of hoax states see, Principality of Estland/Fürstenthüm Ehstland--Termer (talk) 15:49, 2 December 2008 (UTC)
It's really a shame to delete all the creativity put into these articles. Perhaps "List of Wikipedia hoax states" and we consolidate them all (edit-protected)? Then again I could always give them a home elsewhere on the Internet as Baltic historical humor. :-) Freely licensed, after all! -PētersV (talk) 02:21, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
But not such a shame for hoax to be reinserted! PetersV       TALK 06:12, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Wrong map![edit]

Why here is the map of Baltic governorates of Russia?--82.131.66.125 (talk) 13:09, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Familiar range of IP address, that's because the United Baltic Duchy never existed. PetersV       TALK 13:15, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
If the United Baltic Duchy never existed, so why here is the map of Baltic governorates of Russia?--82.131.66.125 (talk) 13:54, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps because there is no better available? By the way... You are very welcome to create an account. Talk/♥фĩłдωəß♥\Work 13:17, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
“Poland & The New Baltic States” map from a British atlas in 1920, showing still-undefined borders in the situation after the treaties of Brest and Versailles and before the Peace of Riga. The proposed United Baltic Duchy was to be located at the future territory of Latvia and Estonia covering the territory of the medieval Livonian Confederation
What about this? The map is published in 1920 but the situation on the map is of 1918.--82.131.66.125 (talk) 13:54, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
And here is the real situation in 1920:
Your map is "wrong", because it counterfeits to show the territory of the „Dutchy“. But the Dutchy never had a territory at all. The map of of the russian provinces just show the geography and the historical situation of this area before the war. Please stop to fake articles about estonian history across the wikipedias. --Otberg (talk) 13:57, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
The United Baltic Duchy were recognized as a sovereign state by emperor Wilhelm II in September 22, 1918. On November 5, 1918, a temporary Regency Council (Regentschaftsrat) for the new state led by Baron Adolf Pilar von Pilchau was formed. This mean the state really existed short time.--82.131.66.125 (talk) 14:15, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
No, there was no state at all. No elections, no parliament, no courts, no police, no army... The population even did not recognize the existance of this "state". --Otberg (talk) 14:23, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Otberg, think! Kaiser recognized sovereignty, Regency goverment was formed - and you still claim that the country never existed? And the army - Baltische Landeswehr - was formed in November 1918.--82.131.66.125 (talk) 14:39, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
You, who ever you are, think! Stop this nonsense of propagating a fake-state all over the different wikipedias. This state was just an curious attempt to establish a state, but it never existed in real. Willhelm talked a lot, which never had consequences in reality. --Otberg (talk) 14:58, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
(od) The Baltische Landeswehr were merely under Germany's direction, they then conveniently stayed on after being technically told to leave. None of that creates an actual state. PetersV       TALK 15:11, 1 May 2009 (UTC)