Talk:United Kingdom

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Former good article United Kingdom was one of the Geography and places good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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English is NOT Official[edit]

The United Kingdom, like the United States, does not have an official language. It has only a national language. Notwithstanding English is the common language of the British government, certain actions must still performed in the Norman language in order for them to be official - as when the Queen gives rubber stamp approval to an act of Parliament with the words, "La Reine le Veult." She doesn't do that for fun; she does it because it's required. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.162.218.153 (talkcontribs) 17:08, 12 April 2015‎ (UTC)

yes, this needs changing — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.220.1.206 (talk) 16:02, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
The article states that "The UK's de facto official language is English". The key term here is de facto; the article's not saying that English is the official language according to law. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:20, 22 April 2015 (UTC)
In the article itself yes, but the infobox says the official language is English. This needs changing. Ljgua124 (talk) 03:32, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
Why? It's not incorrect. Rob984 (talk) 08:29, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
It *IS* incorrect. The UK has never established an official language. If members of Parliament from Wales wish to address Parliament in Welsh, they have every legal right to do so AND to be heard (notwithstanding most of the other members will not understand them). The infobox should simply say "National Language." 2601:645:C300:16DD:2D99:63E1:D6EB:9718 (talk) 12:55, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
Yes because Welsh (as well as English) is an official language in Wales. The infobox correctly states English is the only official language of the whole UK. Welsh is an official regional language, while Scots, Ulster Scots, Cornish, Scottish Gaelic and Irish are recognised regional languages. Currently, the fact that Welsh is an official regional language is not stated in the infobox, so maybe it could be changed to:
Official national language English
Official regional language Welsh
Recognised regional languages


Scots, Ulster Scots,
Cornish,
Scottish Gaelic, Irish
or
National language English
Official languages English, Welsh
Recognised regional languages


Scots, Ulster Scots,
Cornish,
Scottish Gaelic, Irish
I don't really care. Wales covers only 5% of the population so possibly would be undue weight. However there is no reason to remove English as an official language.
Rob984 (talk) 15:58, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

UNOCHA map[edit]

Great Britain UNOCHA.png

I've reverted the addition of the UNOCHA map to the infobox - see right - because I think it's wrong and misleading. The error, I think, is in referring to the "United Kingdom of Great Britain"... and, separately, to "Northern Ireland". My understanding is that the "United Kingdom" is of "Great Britain and Northern Ireland". In my view, the map should not be included unless it is corrected (and, even then, I'm not convinced it's necessary). Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:21, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

I agree, it really won't do as it stands. -- Alarics (talk) 17:29, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
Agreed. Even if corrected I don't think it should be added. What does it add to have it in the article given the other maps we already have? These UNOCHA maps seem to have been spammed across WP which makes me uneasy about them. DeCausa (talk) 17:57, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

I added the image as it's informative. It shows many of the major cities of the UK as well as other neighbouring countries. With regards to Northern Ireland, I don't think it is misleading as it clearly states in the blue heading the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. SantiagoFrancoRamos (talk) 20:24, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

The reference to the "United Kingdom of Great Britain" is incorrect. Such an entity does not exist. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:26, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
Yes, but the map also includes the text "United Kingdom of Great Britain", which doesn't exist. The map in the administrative divisions section does the job of showing where major cities are. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:29, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

This map looks better and the map showing cities in administrative divisions looks comparable to the ones made in the 1990s. I see the error in the labelling of the island and would be able to change it to Great Britain instead. SantiagoFrancoRamos (talk) 20:37, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

It doesn't look better; it's poor quality and is not wanted. In the face of three editors posting here that your map is not wanted you still added back in. That's disruptive. Don't do it again. DeCausa (talk) 20:47, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
I'm inclined the agree that the administrative divisions map isn't the best - it's a bit crowded, for one - but I don't think this new map is the one to replace it. We can find better, I'm sure. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:49, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
It's a location map so it can be easily modified. Problem is it is trying to do too much. It was intended to go in the infobox and therefore:
  • be small enough to go in the infobox
  • show the UK in respect to nearby countries
  • show the largest cities in the UK
  • show the countries of the UK
  • show the capitals of the countries of the UK
As far as I can tell, most editors don't want another map in the infobox. I added it to the body because there wasn't one previously.
Anyway, to replace it we could have two maps: one showing the four countries and their capitals in the Administrative divisions section; and another showing the largest cities in the Demographics section.
Rob984 (talk) 21:51, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
That would be great, Rob984. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:56, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 August 2015[edit]

Under Politics - Government it says that elections are called by the monarch, and are subject to the Parliament Acts. However this is no longer the case since the introduction of the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011. PepperMintTea1967 (talk) 23:27, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

I agree. Note though that the monarch may still be able to call elections. In Canada, which had a similar law, the governor-general called an early election in 2011. Also, the next sentence says, "a new election must be called no later than five years after the previous general election." But I do not think that is true. Parliament dissolves 5 years following an election, but there was nothing mandating elections, although typically they would be called promptly near or at the end of Parliament's mandate. TFD (talk) 16:53, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
Actually, section 1 of the 2011 Act says that the election has to happen on the 1st Thursday in May in the 5th year after the last election (although the prime minister can alter the electiin date by 2 months) Section 3 says that disolution has to happen 17 days earlier than the election day mandated by section 1. DeCausa (talk) 17:04, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Oxbridge in the education section[edit]

I think it's enough to leave just information of history there as this is far less controversial than rankings'. THE (comprising both global main and reputation league tables) doesn't represent all the major rankings we have (ARWU, QS, US News). To me, it's a bit biased to just mention one of them. In dialogue with Biomedicinal 12:55, 11 September 2015‎ (UTC)

My problem is that we had a previous discussion here about avoiding just mentioning Oxford and Cambridge. Is there any way we can use these rankings to indicate there is more to UK universities than the ones we have had since the thirteenth century?--SabreBD (talk) 16:08, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

I think Oxbridge has significance as they're the two oldest universities in English-speaking world. I personally don't prefer mentioning rankings, which can vary dramatically from publisher to publisher. If they're really required, we can add something like "UK has the second most tertiary institutions ranked among the top 100 on a number of league tables" which is pretty consistent in the ones I cited above. In dialogue with Biomedicinal 15:39, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Including the First Ministers of their respective devolved legislatures on the Infobox[edit]

I believe that the First Ministers of the devolved nations (Scotland, NI, and Wales) should be included in the infobox below Prime Minister.

See Infobox right:

A flag featuring both cross and saltire in red, white and blue Coat of arms containing shield and crown in centre, flanked by lion and unicorn
Flag Royal coat of arms[nb 1]
Anthem: "God Save the Queen"[nb 2]
Two islands to the north-west of continental Europe. Highlighted are the larger island and the north-eastern fifth of the smaller island to the west.
Location of the  United Kingdom  (dark green)

– in Europe  (green & dark grey)
– in the European Union  (green)

Capital
and largest city
London
51°30′N 0°7′W / 51.500°N 0.117°W / 51.500; -0.117
Official language
and national language
English
Recognised regional
languages[nb 3]
Ethnic groups (2011)
Demonym
Government Unitary parliamentary constitutional monarchy
 -  Monarch Elizabeth II
 -  Prime Minister David Cameron
 -  First Ministers:
(in Scotland)
(in Northern Ireland)

(in Wales)

Nicola Sturgeon
Arlene Foster
Martin McGuinness
Carwyn Jones
Legislature Parliament
 -  Upper house House of Lords
 -  Lower house House of Commons
History
 -  Acts of Union of England and Scotland 1 May 1707 
 -  Acts of Union of Great Britain and Ireland 1 January 1801 
 -  Irish Free State Constitution Act 5 December 1922 
 -  EEC accession[nb 4] 1 January 1973 
Area
 -  Total 242,495 km2[3] (80th)
93,628 sq mi
 -  Water (%) 1.34
Population
 -  2014 estimate 64,511,000[4] (22nd)
 -  2011 census 63,181,775[5] (22nd)
 -  Density 255.6/km2 (51st)
661.9/sq mi
GDP (PPP) 2014 estimate
 -  Total $2.549 trillion (10th)
 -  Per capita $39,510[4] (28th)
GDP (nominal) 2014 estimate
 -  Total $2.945 trillion (5th)
 -  Per capita $45,653[4] (19th)
Gini (2012) positive decrease 32.8[6]
medium · 33rd
HDI (2013) Steady 0.892[7]
very high · 14th
Currency Pound sterling (£) (GBP)
Time zone GMT (UTC​)
 -  Summer (DST) BST (UTC+1)
Date format dd/mm/yyyy (AD)
Drives on the left
Calling code +44
ISO 3166 code GB
Internet TLD .uk

Thunderstorm008 (talk) 15:16, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Do any comparable country articles include this kind of material in their infoboxes, do you know? I ask because I've edited the Bosnia and Herzegovina article a lot and it doesn't list sub-national leaders despite the country being highly decentralised, but I'm unaware of what the norm is. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:08, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
I've just checked Canada, which is a featured article, and it doesn't list the premier of Quebec. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:18, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
I don't think we should - infobox bloat. Johnbod (talk) 19:15, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
Unnecessary, per MOS:INFOBOX - the infobox only exists to "summarise.. key features of the page's subject.." The subject of the article is the UK as a whole, not the devolved legislatures. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:43, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
Indeed. Speaking of which, it is surely highly misleading to include languages like Cornish and Ulster Scots so prominently as "officially recognised". This may be technically correct, but will give (for example) Indians and Spaniards completely the wrong idea. Try using them in legal proceedings. Only Welsh should be mentioned. Johnbod (talk) 15:18, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
Well it's not "highly misleading". Loads of people in Scotland report they speak Scots (more than any foreign language). It also says "recognised", not "official", although Welsh could have it's own section "Official regional languages". While Scottish Gaelic is spoken by a very small minority of the population, it is widely spoken across a large area. The Western Isles alone are pretty significant. Cornish, Irish and Ulster-Scots are almost extinct in the UK, but it would be difficult to exclude them while including the others as they are recognised. Rob984 (talk) 15:47, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
So it is highly misleading and WP:UNDUE to have them so prominently placed here then. Obviously they can go in the text somewhere way down where they belong, but to have information about the Cornish language halfway down the first screen of the article is wildly undue. It's not difficult to exclude them at all. Johnbod (talk) 16:10, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
True. I just mean there's no clear cut off. It would be difficult to exclude Scots but include Welsh. Or include Scots and Welsh, but not Scottish Gaelic. Or include Scots, Welsh, and Scottish Gaelic, but not Irish. Another option would be using a collapsible list for regional languages. Rob984 (talk) 16:41, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
Are there Scots language schools? Are all locally relevant government publications produced in Scots versions? It really isn't difficult at all. Johnbod (talk) 17:32, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
We could also add the percentages like for ethnic groups. Rob984 (talk) 16:42, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
More bloat. In a note maybe. Johnbod (talk) 17:32, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
Now I see from the link below (to the discussion above) that we have only had this nonsense for a couple of weeks, after one ISP proposed it. Time to remove it. Johnbod (talk) 18:14, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
Remove what? The regional languages have been listed in the infobox, quite correctly, for many years. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:11, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
Ok, I misread the section above. But this is not correct, it is UNDUE infobox bloat. Also, if your machine is running slowly, the ludicrous show/hide box with the name in all the languages displays for several seconds. Anyone from the UK knows that this is all nonsense, as the real actual speakers of non-native languages such as Urdu and Polish outnumber the speakers of all but Welsh many times - many thousands of times in the case of Cornish, and government policy in terms of the translation of notices etc rightly reflects this. The infobox treatment seems blatently discriminatory against non-native minority languages. Johnbod (talk) 20:50, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
Whatever the arguments for inclusion or otherwise in the infobox, unless you are implying that the stats are wrong about your "real actual speakers of non-native languages" your assertions above are incorrect and you might have checked them. Polish and Welsh are similar in number, both significantly more than Urdu with Scots outnumbering these three put together. Having no schools using a tongue as the main language and few official documents says something about lack of status, not existence. Mutt Lunker (talk) 22:34, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
Well if you count a few minor dialectal differences, fewer than in most English regional dialects, as making the Scots most Scots speak a different language, then I suppose they might. It is precisely official status we are talking about here. Johnbod (talk) 02:29, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
Yes, quite probably most Scots (outside the Highlands, though many in) speak Scots only to such a limited extent, hence 70% of them reporting in the census that they don't understand, speak, read or write it, despite that knowledge. Mutt Lunker (talk) 07:14, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
I believe they should not. Rob984 (talk) 22:17, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
Adding the Scottish premier etc. is excessive. Incidentally, is English the "official" language of the UK or the unofficial one? TFD (talk) 15:45, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
Huh? English is official according the the Government. Welsh and English are official in Wales according to Welsh law. Other are recognised regional languages under the Council of Europe's European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages, which the Government signed. Rob984 (talk) 15:52, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
There is a discussion on this issue above. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:34, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
Article 2 of the French constitution (translated into English) says, "The language of the Republic shall be French." What is the equivalent legislation in the United Kingdom? When did it come into effect in Cornwall, Wales, Ireland and Scotland. TFD (talk) 03:34, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
There isn't any, nor is there a written British constitution. Deal with it. You could look at the Act of Uniformity 1549, which provoked a rebellion in Cornwall, and similar moments, but there's no one easy answer. Johnbod (talk) 04:13, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
Don't add them. By comparison, can you image what the Canadian infobox would be like, if the 10 provincial premiers & 3 territorial premiers were added. What about the American infobox, with 50 state governors included. GoodDay (talk) 04:15, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ National Anthem, British Monarchy official website. Retrieved 16 November 2013.
  2. ^ "List of declarations made with respect to treaty No. 148". Council of Europe. Retrieved 12 December 2013. 
  3. ^ "Demographic Yearbook – Table 3: Population by sex, rate of population increase, surface area and density" (PDF). United Nations Statistics Division. 2012. Retrieved 9 August 2015. 
  4. ^ a b c "United Kingdom". International Monetary Fund. Retrieved 15 April 2015. 
  5. ^ "2011 UK censuses". Office for National Statistics. Retrieved 17 December 2012. 
  6. ^ "Gini coefficient of equivalised disposable income (source: SILC)". Eurostat Data Explorer. Retrieved 13 August 2013. 
  7. ^ "2014 Human Development Report" (PDF). 14 March 2013. pp. 22–25. Retrieved 27 July 2014. 


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