# Talk:University of Maine/Archive 1

## Naming

The University of Maine is just that. It is not "at Orono". That is an attempted political move over the years by certain factions to destabilize/minimize the importance of the state's land grant college and primary university. Since the use of it is disapproved of by the university itself, and also not the proper name (unlike University of Nebraska-Lincoln where it's used, and also unlike University of Alabama at Tuscaloosa where it's technically correct but not used) I'm removing it so the article is NPOV on that issue. --Sturmde 20:15, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

A note to those reading this for the talk page first time. Wikipedia's changed a lot in 4 years, but through those years, there still is this attempt to turn UMaine into something it's not. The relevant State of Maine statute clearly defines UMaine as the University of Maine in Title 20-A: EDUCATION Part 5: POST-SECONDARY EDUCATION Chapter 411: UNIVERSITY OF MAINE §10901-A. University of Maine System: http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/Statutes/20-A/title20-Asec10901-A.html --Sturmde (talk) 12:51, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Well you can think it's political manuvering if you like; but I'm from and grew up in the area and the majority of people I knew (who could care less about university politics) always refer to it as the University of Maine at Orono. Strangely enough the most vocal opponents of the "at Orono" part seem to not even be FROM Maine.

• I dunno... I've lived here all my life and there's no "at Orono" in my book. - NightThree 12:40, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
• I'm also a Mainer and a student at the university, and it is The University of Maine. I think a lot of the confusion comes from people changing the phrase 'at Maine' (compare 'at Cambridge') to 'at Orono' to make their meaning more clear. Reffering to the university by the town it inhabits might also be common beacause there's very little else in Orono. Grimm
• Since it was "the University of Maine at Orono" officially for many years until the mid-1980s when it was changed back, it's reasonable to understand why people still call it that. I'm a lifelong Mainer from Bangor and virtually everyone I know calls it "the University of Maine" or "UMO." I still call it UMO, regardless of whether it's correct. It was always UMO when I was young, until I was about 17, so I guess it's burned in. I also recall only realizing it was no longer officially UMO about six or seven years ago. Just hadn't occurred to me. Anyway, whether the hurt prides at the University like it or not, it really IS the University of Maine, which really IS in Orono, and some folks are just always going to call it that, at least for awhile. But the debate here seems to be whether or not "at Orono" belongs in the name. It doesn't matter; the article is entitled "University of Maine" because that's the official, legal name of the school, and the stories of when it was changed to "University of Maine at Orono" and when it was changed back are covered. We've successfully reported all the facts behind it, so I suspect it's a moot point. [That being said, the raging egos of those who couldn't handle being called "...at Orono" because of some silly pride issue is, at least amusing... but surprising that they whined enough to get it changed back!] Indy 18:25, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I must say the University of Maine isn't just at Orono there are other campuses located in Maine. For example in Presque Isle, Augusta, Machias, Fort Kent, and Farmington

Those are campuses of the Universtiy of Maine System, but not part of the University of Maine. DAF 05:04, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. It is "the University of Maine" or abbreviated "UMaine." Much like "The Ohio State University." UMaine is the flagship campus of the University of Maine System, and as such, it is acknowledged officially as the University of Maine. For conversation sake you could say, "I attend the University of Maine, which is located in Orono, ME." But referencing it as UMO will get you odd looks while on the campus. Ventric 23:10, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

## Self-promotion as an alumni

There is nothing worse on a university or college page than self-promotion as a recent graduate of the institution. I wish people would stop adding that they graduated with a degree in business administration and acting like they are notable alums. Ventric 00:10, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

## Fair use rationale for Image:UMaineseal.png

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Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 04:33, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

## Mike Buck

The Mike Buck link on this page goes to the wrong Mike Buck. Anyway we can fix this? Perhaps someone could get a Mike Buck (footballer) article up and running? 83.100.221.38 (talk) 08:26, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

## Neutral Point of View (from WP:NPOV)

The following four paragraphs quote from WP:NPOV. The first sentence of the article does not conform to this standard. If you don't want me to rewrite it, please do it yourself.

"The neutral point of view is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject: it neither endorses nor discourages viewpoints. Articles should provide background on who believes what and why, and which view is more popular; detailed articles might also contain evaluations of each viewpoint, but must studiously refrain from taking sides."
"When we discuss an opinion, we attribute the opinion to someone and discuss the fact that they have this opinion. For instance, rather than asserting that "The Beatles were the greatest band ever", locate a source such as Rolling Stone magazine and say: "Rolling Stone said that the Beatles were the greatest band ever", and include a reference to the issue in which that statement was made. Likewise, the statement "Most people from Liverpool believe that the Beatles were the greatest band ever" can be made if it can be supported by references to a particular survey; a claim such as "The Beatles had many songs that made the UK Singles Chart" can also be made, because it is verifiable as fact. The first statement asserts a personal opinion; the second asserts the fact that an opinion exists and attributes it to reliable sources. [The second statement is appropriate for Wikipedia]."
"Sometimes, a potentially biased statement can be reframed into a neutral statement by attributing or substantiating it. For instance, "John Doe is the best baseball player" is, by itself, merely an expression of opinion. One way to make it suitable for Wikipedia is to change it into a statement about someone whose opinion it is: "John Doe's baseball skills have been praised by baseball insiders such as Al Kaline and Joe Torre," as long as those statements are correct and can be verified. The goal here is to attribute the opinion to some subject-matter expert, rather than to merely state it as true."
"Where a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinions, inappropriate tone can be introduced through the way in which facts are selected, presented, or organized. Neutral articles are written with a tone that provides an unbiased, accurate, and proportionate representation of all positions included in the article. The tone of Wikipedia articles should be impartial, neither endorsing nor rejecting a particular point of view."

If you don't fix it, somebody else will. And please refer to the statement at the foot of every editing page: "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed for profit by others, do not submit it." Mervyn Emrys (talk) 17:14, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

## Threats

From WP:Stalking: "Threatening another person is considered harassment. This may include threats to harm another person, to disrupt their work on Wikipedia, or to otherwise hurt them."

Legal threats are considered a special case, with their own settled policy. Users who make legal threats will typically be blocked from editing indefinitely. So don't threaten people!" Mervyn Emrys (talk) 17:22, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

## Links for use in documentation of flagship universities and UMaine, flagship of the UMS

<under construction>

USA Today lists UMaine specifically as a flagship university.

2006 charting of the 75 flagships' tuitions: http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-08-30-tuition-survey_x.htm

Bangor Daily News (many many references, just a few here)

2009 Editorial by Dr. Dianne Hoff, chair of UMaine's Faculty Senate, who wouldn't use the word "flagship" if it weren't accurate: http://www.bangordailynews.com/detail/98956.html

From UMS--the statewide University of Maine System (maine.edu) (note: not The University of Maine umaine.edu)

The state System office calls the University of Maine its flagship university, repeatedly viz.
2003, after Chancellor of the System's remarks and the --30-- mark, a note to editors: "NOTE TO EDITORS AND REPORTERS: Please remember that a difference exists between the University of Maine and the University of Maine System. The University of Maine is a single institution, located in Orono, and is the flagship institution of the seven-member University of Maine System. The University of Maine System is the administrative and coordinating organization that oversees all seven universities and other related entities." http://www.maine.edu/news/bulletins/old/stateurelease.html
2004, chair of the System Board of Trustees: http://www.maine.edu/news/bulletins/old/presidentialsearches.html
2004 Chancellor of the System calls UMaine the flagship: http://www.maine.edu/news/bulletins/old/stateurelease.html
2009 Currently the System refers to UMaine as its flagship:

http://www.maine.edu/prospective/univ-maine.php

Various from maine.gov, the official site of the State of Maine:

Since 1968 The State of Maine refers to its land grant as "Since 1968 it has served as the flagship university within the state's University of Maine System. http://www.maine.gov/education/highered/Directory/University%20of%20Maine.htm
2008 Tardy visits flagship. http://www.maine.gov/legis/house_gop/news/tardyfellow.htm

Countless pages at Umaine.edu, but take note of the University's own editorial style guide, and the University's symbol of 3 sails... (as on a flagship, eh?)

http://www.umaine.edu/relations/documents/Style_Guide06.pdf

On the issues of flagship universities, and most land-grants and chief system campuses being flagship universites, note the following:

Current President of the Association of American Universities (AAU), former President of the University of Texas at Austin, Chancellor of the University of California, Berkeley, Dr. Robert Berdahl clearly defines flagship universities. (And note, states can have more than one.) http://cio.chance.berkeley.edu/chancellor/sp/flagship.htm

From Lobbying for Higher Education: How Colleges and Universities Influence Federal Policy Constance Ewing Cook, Vanderbilt University Press, 1998. ISBN 0826513174, 9780826513175 See especially these pages viewable online at Google books (others viewable in the book itself.) Flagships are specific:

USA Today lists flagship universities.

2006 charting of the 75 flagships' tuitions: http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-08-30-tuition-survey_x.htm

All of the above are --Sturmde (talk) 01:10, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

One seems to be going to great lengths to document something about which I don't think there is a documentation issue. The issue, as I see it, is how one handles a POV statement in an article. WP:NPOV as quoted in a previous section is quite specific about that. Why not save oneself a great deal of effort (as User:Coppertwig]] suggested above) and simply state it in the article as provided in WP:NPOV? It would save one a great deal of time and avoid WP:Point. Mervyn Emrys (talk) 03:47, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
I'm just adding related links in my spare time as I have a chance to research. Your argument seems a straw argument in that you insist that UMaine being referred to as the flagship university of the University of Maine System isn't NPOV. There is ample evidence that the System (not POV, since the System oversees UMaine) itself refers to UMaine as the flagship university, that newspapers local and national (definitely NPOV) refer to it as the flagship university, that the State of Maine (certainly NPOV) refers to it as the flagship university, that UC (Berkeley) Chancellor Dr. Berdahl (all NPOV) and others in academia refer to universities such as UMaine as flagship universities. So, what your argument really is, is that UMaine is NOT a flagship university, that it's just an opinion. IF it's just an opinion, it's in contrast only to your opinion. And what's your authority (in the WP sense, not the 'right' sense) to your opinion? I've yet to see you provide one reference OTHER than your opinion, that UMaine is not a flagship university. --Sturmde (talk) 12:44, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Well, at this point I think one is just going round and round in a circle, and arguing with User:Coppertwig where she says above:
The change she suggests is not great, and does not detract from the article at all, so might be a useful way to resolve this issue so we can all move on to more productive editing in this article or elsewhere. How you spend your time is up to you, of course. Just a suggestion, trying to be helpful and constructive. Mervyn Emrys (talk) 15:44, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Coppertwig, I'm not following your comment on the 3rd footnote issue. Maine.gov is the State of Maine, the government based in Augusta. It isn't the University of Maine System at maine.edu which is headquartered in Bangor. It isn't the University of Maine at umaine.edu. The State of Maine is a third party to the University of Maine. These are three different entities. --Sturmde (talk) 17:17, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

## Promotional hype

This article reads like the advertising promotional hype a school puts out to attract admissions applications, not like an encyclopedia article. The exceedingly long list of degrees should be deleted entire, and a reasonable attempt should be made to avoid replicating the entire university catalog at this location. It is inappropriate, unimaginative, and overly pretentious. I'm removing the reference to "flagship" from the lead because it is a gross self-promotional violation of WP:NPOV. Orono is simply a university, not a ship of any kind, and its proponents should have the grace to restrain themselves from inflicting their self-important POV on the rest of the world (except perhaps at football games). Mervyn Emrys (talk) 02:57, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

See University of Toronto approach, listing colleges but not degrees. Mervyn Emrys (talk) 21:10, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

The designation of UMaine as the "flagship" university was done by the legislature of the State of Maine. I guess that it's factual means nothing to you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.111.163.179 (talk) 13:24, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Please sign your edits, per Wikipedia policy, or you may be banned from editing here. Designated by the Legislature or not, it is not fact but POV hype. Matters not who said it. Orono can say what it wants in its promotional brochures, but Wikipedia articles must be WP:NPOV. Mervyn Emrys (talk) 23:52, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
Unless a statement is added to the effect that "According to so and so, Orono is the "flagship university" it is still POV and not permitted by Wikipedia policies, reliable source or not. How you say it is important. You cannot state it as fact in Wikipedia if it is POV. Mervyn Emrys (talk) 14:09, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
I don't think there's a policy that says you have to sign your posts; I think it's just a guideline. Users are not expected to read all the policies and guidelines before contributing, but are encouraged to be bold and go ahead and edit. I doubt someone would be banned if the only thing they did wrong was not sign their posts; certainly not when they're relatively new to the project. When one has been on the project for longer, there's more of an expectation that one will have spent some time reading the policies and guidelines, but usually when one violates a policy or guideline, others gently inform one so one can correct one's course. It's best not to mention banning when doing so, per WP:BITE. Coppertwig (talk) 11:51, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

WP:LAME ccwaters (talk) 14:30, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Mervyn, please see the article flagship university. You've already shown yourself to not understand the concept of a "flagship university" based on your own comments above about ships. You're out of your element. If you continue to adjust the article without showing any links or documentation that it's "hype", you're the one imposing YOUR POV. UMaine is legally a flagship university, and designated the flagship university of the University of Maine System. It's described as a flagship university in published collegiate reviews that are independently written. There are other flagship universities in each university system in the United States. Examples include the University of Missouri, the University of Alabama, Georgia Tech University, the University of Georgia, the University of Texas, the University of Illinois, Penn State University,... --Sturmde (talk) 19:58, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Nonsense. Wikipedia defines POV, not me. It's all promotional hype, no matter which university does it. And suggesting people are ignorant, don't understand, or are "out of their element" also violates WP:Civility, not to mention being somewhat offensive, so please watch your step. Arrogance is not valued here, and there is a strong populist anti-intellectual strain in Wikipedia that may not work in your favor if you really get into it with somebody here. Mervyn Emrys (talk) 02:29, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Mr. Mervyn Emrys: I do believe accusing others of being ungentlemanly/unladylike when you have already told people previous here "you will be banned", and taking a comment that you don't seem to understand the meaning of "flagship university" as a personal assault, and when your comments here have now crossed into general threatening with "watch your step" is why ccwaters has already pointed out WP:LAME to you. Is the chancellor of the University of California, a/k/a "Berkeley" a sufficient enough authority for you? http://cio.chance.berkeley.edu/chancellor/sp/flagship.htm I think Dr. Berhdahl's scholarship is enough for almost any fair-minded Wikipedian. Are you actively erasing the term "flagship" from all the universities cited in USA Today's 2006 list? http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-08-30-tuition-survey_x.htm Are you writing Dr. Berhdahl, the legislators of Maine, University Systems around the US, USA Today, the Morrill Act overseers at the US Department of Education, the College Guide authors and threatening them to remove the word "flagship" lest you ban them from Wikipedia? All I can say is one (not "you") should be careful when starting an edit war with folks who also have free electrons by the yottamole. --Sturmde (talk) 14:35, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
Whether ONE does any of the things described above is immaterial. ONE must comply with Wikipedia policies despite what others do or do not do. Please see the relevant statement below. Are you threatening me, as appears to be the case in your final sentence? Perhaps you might wish to reconsider that statement, eh? Mervyn Emrys (talk) 17:18, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
PS: I never threatened to ban anybody for using the word "flagship," or anything. What I said above was: "Please sign your edits, per Wikipedia policy, or you may be banned from editing here." That is not a threat. I may be mistaken in my interpretation of the policy, or guideline, or whatever it is, but twisting my words, or putting words in my mouth that I did not use, will not help your case here. Mervyn Emrys (talk) 21:21, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Call it what you like. Nobody who reads this article (except you and your cronies) is likely to know what "the concept of a flagship university" is, and this article does not explain it. Few are likely to read any "published collegiate reviews" to find out either. Source it all you want, it still appears to be nothing by self-aggrandizing hype, without any explanation. There really are not that many members of your little in-group who read Wikipedia, you know. Mervyn Emrys (talk) 19:41, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
As is done at the Simple English projects, I think it's OK for a word or phrase to be used which readers may not be familiar with, when the word is wikilinked to an article which explains the word or phrase. Another function of such wikilinks can be to tell the reader which of several possible meanings is intended, when the reader may know of more than one meaning; and of course another function is just to help readers navigate around the encyclopedia. Coppertwig (talk) 11:45, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
I think the question here is, is a statement that a university is a "flagship university" a fact or an opinion? It could still be an opinion even if nobody disagrees with it, for example "stealing is wrong". I can see both sides of this issue. If "flagship university" means "a university that has been designated as a 'flagship university' by a relevant legislature" then it's a fact. If "flagship university" means "the most important university in the state" then it's an opinion, even if that opinion is generally agreed on and has been enacted by a legislature (didn't a state legislature once rule that ${\displaystyle \pi =3}$?) Per WP:ASF, Wikipedia asserts facts, and facts about opinions (e.g. "so-and-so says that X is a flagship university", as Mervyn Emrys suggests), but does not assert opinions as fact. Coppertwig (talk) 11:57, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
I'd argue the independence of the third footnote -- it's a Maine.gov link, not a Maine.edu link. If you delete it on the grounds that it isn't independent, how can you then say that you can credit the legislature, which would post its "opinion" on the same domain? (And I still haven't found a reference to support the legislature designating it, unfortunately...) --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 12:45, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Coppertwig, I think you're missing the point. Land-grant institutions that lead state university systems are flagship universities. Primary universities that lead state university systems are flagship universities. Some states have more than one flagship university. Check the USA Today listing elsewhere. Check the Berdahl speech at Texas A&M when it became an additional flagship university for the State of Texas. Many states with multiple national research universities have more than one. But Maine has only one national research university, only one land-grant-sea-grant-space-grant university, and since 1865 defined by law as the primary university of the State of Maine. That's UMaine. Where's any authority that "flagship is leading" or "flagship is arbitrary"? --Sturmde (talk) 12:57, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Hi, my link to WP:LAME was directed at this edit war in general. I hope you all read it and realized how ridiculous it is. If you think it was directed at you in particular, maybe you should stand back an look at the situation from a different angle. I apologize for not being clearer. That's all from me: please don't add any more faked warning templates to my talk page. ccwaters (talk) 16:16, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, I was wrong about the 3rd footnote. I mistakenly thought it was from the university.
I may be missing something. What does "lead" mean? If somebody is the president of the company, we can say that they're leading the company. Whether they're the president or not would be an objective fact. Do we have that sort of objective fact for universities? Does a state university system unambiguously have one leading "flagship" university? What does that mean? How do we know that? On the flagship university page it says it means the leading university. Well, when you say that a certain company is the leading company in its industry, that's generally a subjective statement. It could mean they have the biggest gross income, or the biggest profit, or the largest amount of production, or the best quality (according to whom?) product. So there isn't one unambigous leading company in an industry. It isn't like saying someone is the president of a company. If the position of flagship university is unambiguous: for example, if it's a position bestowed explicitly on the university by the state: then I suggest updating the flagship university article to explain this. For now, it just looks as if it's like the leading company in an industry: something that might be a matter of opinion.
I'm posting some web search results at Talk:flagship university and encouraging discussion there about the meaning of "flagship university". Apparently maybe "flagship university" can imply a university with some sort of special status conferred by the state; but that may be more in the past. Maybe nowadays universities don't tend to have that special status, and are just called "flagship university" more informally. I didn't find any sources that made the situation really clear. Some states have more than one flagship university. Coppertwig (talk) 17:58, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
I just added another reference to the lead, where it shows that the University of Maine System itself refers to UMaine as the flagship of the UMS. That's definitely not a matter of opinion. The State of Maine may have more than one flagship, but the UMS has only one, and that's UMaine.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:19, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Oudenting before the indents run off the page. Surely 'flagship' here has it's modern day meaning of 'this is the best one we have so take a look at it'. The University of Sales can equally well say that the Acme College of Cold Calling is it's primary college or its flagship college or its leading college. The words all have the same meaning, or lack of meaning. The*fact* is that the UoS says it. No statement is made as to whether or not the statement denotes any real world merit of the ACCC. That surely is for the article to explore.Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:12, 17 May 2009 (UTC)Sorry. Too many tabs open. This is in the wrong place.

## Pretentious, obnoxious POV

With reference to the above POV, claims that one is a "flagship university" should be made with attribution to the source, because they are mere opinion, not statements of fact. Moreover, such claims are pretentious and rather obnoxious within academe. According to Robert Berdahl, former University of California, Berkeley chancellor,

...those of us in "systems" of higher education are frequently actively discouraged from using the term "flagship" to refer to our campuses because it is seen as hurtful to the self-esteem of colleagues at other institutions in our systems. The use of the term is seen by some as elitist and boastful. It is viewed by many, in the context of the politics of higher education, as "politically incorrect." ... Only in the safe company of alumni is one permitted to use the term. [1]
1. ^ Robert M. Berdahl, Chancellor, University of California, Berkeley (1998-10-08). "The Future of Flagship Universities". Texas A&M University. Retrieved 2006-09-22.

Mervyn Emrys (talk) 23:42, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

The website of the University of Maine System, to which the University of Maine belongs, states clearly:
If UMaine calls itself the flagship of the UMS, that could arguably be POV. IF THE UNIVERSITY OF MAINE SYSTEM STATES THAT UMAINE IS ITS FLAGSHIP, THERE IS NOTHING TO DISCUSS.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 02:14, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Irrelevant who says it, it is still mere opinion, not fact. Putting large quotation marks around it does not change that. What is holy about the UMaine System Office? Orono Faculty Senate would like to see it abolished. Mervyn Emrys (talk) 13:54, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
Could you provide some examples of your claims about an Orono Faculty Senate? What is that organization? Could you please document some of this? You wish to maintain privacy, yet you suggest you have inside information. That's a conflict of interest, isn't it? 130.111.163.179 (talk) 21:27, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
It is not inside information, and there is no conflict of interest. Be careful about making unfounded or speculative accusations here, please. Like other universities, University of Maine at Orono has a Faculty Senate. Earlier this year the Orono Faculty Senate passed a resolution in response to a report by the UMS Chancellor entitled “New Challenges, New Directions: Achieving Long Term Financial Sustainability,” which suggested the Orono campus could perform some tasks better than the System Office, and questioned its usefulness. This is all public information. Mervyn Emrys (talk) 23:20, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Um, what is this "University of Maine at Orono" you mention? Seems a bit strange that you just used that terminology. Are you using that on purpose? If so, the intent of that usage seems to be elitist, and insulting.216.220.226.172 (talk) 02:26, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

To be consistant with WP:NPOV (in section above), an appropriate prose-attribution for this issue in this article would look like this:

The University of Maine, established in 1865, is often referred to as the flagship university of the University of Maine System. ref:“USA TODAY's 2006 College Tuition & Fees Survey.” USA TODAY. (Accessed May 13, 2009). http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2006-08-30-tuition-survey_x.htm

Now, what is the big deal about saying it this way, which is consistent with what User:Coppertwig and I have suggested all along? Mervyn Emrys (talk) 01:39, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Will you please quit pushing your own POV here, Mervyn? I don't know what it is you have against UMaine, but I'm getting sick and tired of repeating that if it is properly referenced that the UMS has designated UMaine as its flagship, then it is NOT POV to state that outright.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 11:01, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Now I'm really confused. If my pushing WP:NPOV is considered pushing my POV, is "up" really "down?" All one need do is read the above statement on WP:NPOV to figure out the appropriate way to attribute the statement. Citing UMS is virtually the same as citing UMaine, because UMaine is a subsidiary of UMS. They are merely different parts of the very same organization, so in effect it is citing oneself (but this is not a biography of a living person...). At least my proposal above cites a third party reliable source. Thank you for posting the RfC, and for adding sources to the article in some places where it needed them. Can you add some more? Must be lots of them in Bangor Daily News. They really improve the content and interest of the article. Mervyn Emrys (talk) 16:06, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Sarek mumbles something vaguely obscene about the BDN and the state of its online archives.--16:36, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
Sarek, I have no problem with a statement that the university "has been designated" as the flagship by the UMS, if that can be referenced. Do we have a reference for that? (Sorry if it's been shown to me before. I don't remember.) However, I'm not convinced that stating outright that it "is" the flagship is a fact rather than an opinion. Coppertwig (talk) 23:42, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
The reference that's already on the sentence is the one that says it's the flagship--see if you can interpret it the way you suggest above.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 00:59, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
I don't see a way to do that. As I understand it, it's the web page of the University of Maine, stating that it's the flagship university. (Have I got that right?) Based on that, we could say something like "The University of Maine states that it is the flagship university" or "The University of Maine calls itself the flagship university". Although, for something like that, properly there should be a third-party source to even be able to mention it, I suppose. (The Maine University System would be a perfectly good source, in my opinion, for a statement that it has designated UM the flagship; but the University of Maine itself would not.) Weren't there three sources earlier, or am I thinking of a different university? Coppertwig (talk) 01:30, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
No, that's the website of the University of Maine System. Confusing, I know... http://www.maine.edu is the UMS, and http://www.umaine.edu is the University of Maine.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 01:49, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
However, information about each campus that is presented on the "parent" home page of the University of Maine System was actually prepared by personnel at each individual campus, so it is in effect, UMaine describing itself, with no other attribution. There is no statement there saying "UMaine has been designated the flagship of the Unversity of Maine System." Mervyn Emrys (talk) 15:12, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
"actually prepared by personnel at each individual campus"[citation needed]--SarekOfVulcanExtra (talk) 16:47, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
Sorry about that!!! I made the same mistake twice. I realized my mistake before I read your message, Sarek. Yes, that's the website of the System, not of UMaine. Mervyn Emrys, how do you know who prepared the information? And surely the System would look over the information that they're hosting? By posting it, they're endorsing the statement, regardless of who originally wrote it. I would accept saying "designated as". How about "The website of the University of Maine System describes the University of Maine as its flagship university." (or same, but with "designates" instead of "describes".) It seems to me that that's indisputably true. Coppertwig (talk) 16:54, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
I've changed it to "The University of Maine, established in 1865, is named by the University of Maine System as its flagship university." I think that reads smoothly and satisfies, in my opinion, the need for prose attribution. Coppertwig (talk) 12:27, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
The Wikipedia articles for many universities currently simply state that they are flagship universities, but the Ohio State University page says "Ohio State has been officially designated as the flagship institution of the state's public system of higher education", which I think is more NPOV, more informative and more encyclopedic. (I haven't edited the page, but I've studied Number Theory for a short time at that institution, so I'm proud to see its page being the one to display the more encyclopedic version of the flagship sentence.) Coppertwig (talk) 13:02, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

## Editing conduct RFC

I've opened an RFC on Mervyn Emrys regarding his editing issues on this page.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:10, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

The RfC has been deleted by Jayvdb as uncertified. Coppertwig (talk) 02:08, 6 June 2009 (UTC)