Talk:Valentine Penrose

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Citation needed?[edit]

User:Amortias has added the Citation needed tag to this sentence:

She also knew the surrealist poet André Breton[citation needed], and surrealist artists including Max Ernst and Joan Miró.

I feel that there is adequate citation in the reference at the end of the sentence.[1] This says of Roland Penrose:

There he met his first wife, the French poet Valentine Boué in 1924 and married her the following year. It was partly through her that he met the Surrealist poets André Breton and Paul Éluard who in turn introduced him to Max Ernst, Joan Miró and other members of the movement.

I assumed that if Roland Penrose met André Breton partly through Valentine Penrose, then Valentine Penrose must have known André Breton. If this reasoning is faulty then her knowing Max Ernst and Joan Miró also needs citation. Verbcatcher (talk) 15:44, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

On re-reading this quote, I realise that it says that it was Breton and Éluard that introduced Roland Penrose to Ernst and Miró. This does not mean that Valentine Penrose knew Ernst and Miró (although this seems probable). I will remove the reference to Ernst and Miró, but leave Breton and Éluard. I will leave the citation needed tag for now, pending a response here. Verbcatcher (talk) 15:49, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
Potentially including the citation reference by Breton may provide additional clarity - this should in turn allow the removal of the citation needed tag Amortias (T)(C) 16:22, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
I don't understand. I have cited the reference quoted above (http://www.rolandpenrose.co.uk/about.aspx?cat=1900). Are you suggesting citing something else? Please clarify. Verbcatcher (talk) 18:35, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Description of style[edit]

It would be valuable to quote a description of her poetic style. I found a good quote, but I don't want to include it without a reliable attribution:

Her sensuality and often daring eroticism, her celebration of feminism, her musical rhythm and surprising images make her poems all the more exquisite.

One website attributes this to Jean-Michel Place: [2], but I am doubtful. I think the quote come from from an article by Georgina Colville in a book edited by Jean-Michel Place. This article is referenced in the French Wikipedia article:

  • Geogiana Colvile Scandaleusement d'elles. Trente quatre femmes surréalistes, Jean-Michel Place, Paris 1999, pages 234 à 243, avec une photographie de l'artiste par Lee Miller et quatre collages réalisés pour le recueil Don des féminines.

We should not include a quotation without reliably crediting its author. Can anyone clarify this? Verbcatcher (talk) 22:40, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Additional unsourced material[edit]

The French Wikipedia article makes the following unsourced claims. It would be good to include these here with reliable references.

  • Her father was a colonel
  • She was influenced by a Spanish guru: Count Galarza de Santa Clara
  • In 1944 she joined the French army and served in Algeria
  • Additional publications

Verbcatcher (talk) 23:36, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

I have found a reliable reference for most of this. I will extend the article accordingly. Verbcatcher (talk) 00:21, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Military service[edit]

My most dependable reference (Dictionnaire littéraire des femmes de langue française) says:

De retour en Europe en 1940, Valentine Penrose sert quelque temps dans l’armée française[...]

This means that she served in The French Army in 1940, but I am not certain whether this is the Free French Army or the Army of the Armistice. Another source has her serving in Algeria. Verbcatcher (talk) 00:19, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

French Wikipedia has her serving in Algeria in 1944 (no reference). Verbcatcher (talk) 01:33, 12 May 2014 (UTC)