Is there any reason this page should not either be the actual location of the article on, or a redirect to, Vancouver, British Columbia with a small disambiguation block at the top? Every link to this page is about the city in BC; it seems to be the natural direct link. --Brion
I removed several entries, such as the entire list of sports teams from Vancouver, since they are not serving any readers here on the dab page -- readers looking for a Vancouver sports team are unlikely to enter just "Vancouver" in the search box, and that list is hand;ed well by Vancouver#Sports and recreation and Sports in Vancouver. If needed, a "See also" entry for Sports in Vancouver could be added instead. See WP:MOSDAB for disambiguation page style guidelines. -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:06, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
What is the problem with modeling the Vancouver disambiguation after the Portland page? They represent comparable situations: Vancouver, WA and Portland, ME are the original cities with those names in North America, but newer cities have grown more prominent. Both cities should be given prominence on a disambiguation page. What's the problem with that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 06:47, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
As per that discussion, it is clear that the primary use is for the Canadian city, a fact which is easily demonstrated by a Google search on the term "Vancouver". --Ckatzchatspy 06:51, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
But why should it matter that the primary use is for a Canadian city? This is the DISAMBIGUATION PAGE. It exists for the very purpose of listing the options available under an ambiguous name like Vancouver. No doubt Portland, OR draws more google searches than Portland, ME, but so what? They're both fairly significant cities. So are Vancouver, BC and Vancouver, WA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 07:47, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Ckatz, please stop changing this. You have yet to articulate a reason why this should be the sole listing as to what Vancouver "is." As I pointed out, Portland, OR receives many more Google searches than Portland, ME, but both are still listed (and Vancouver, WA is significantly more populated than Portland, ME). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 01:43, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
Now you're making a real argument! Bravo! But your argument is premised on incorrect information:
Typing "portland" in google gets you 36.1 million results for the oregon one. "isle of portland" nets you a mere 249,000 results. portland, me gets you 4.2 million results. So Portland, OR's closest competitor is about 1/9 as noteworthy by this criteria. By comparison, vancouver washington nets 7.4 million results; vancouver, bc gets you 16.2 million, a difference of just over 2X in favor of Canada's Vancouver.
Even if you compared only generic vancouver (121 million) to vancouver, wa and assumed that EVERY generic vancouver search result was for the Canadian one (an obviously incorrect assumption) you would get a difference of about 16X in favor of Vancouver, BC.
If you accepted the same premise about generic portland, you would compare 126 million to 4.2, which means the Oregon one would be about 30 times more common. So by any measure, Vancouver should be done like Portland; the case is even stronger for it than Portland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 06:54, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
- The following is an essay by User:Mkdw. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
|This page is an essay.
It contains the advice
or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors. Essays are not Wikipedia policies or guidelines
. Some essays represent widespread norms; others only represent minority viewpoints.
The issue regarding Vancouver's name space landing on the Canadian city versus a disambiguation page due to its shared name with the United States city Vancouver, Washington arises frequently. In this page is a summary and collection of arguments, facts, and details surrounding the circumstances of "why Vancouver is not a disambiguation page".
- Copied from Wikipedia United States Naming Convention
The canonical form for cities in the United States is [[City, State]] (the "comma convention"). Those cities that need additional disambiguation include their county or parish (for example Elgin, Lancaster County, South Carolina and Elgin, Kershaw County, South Carolina). If more than one city, town, or census-designated place within the same county has the same name, specify the type of local government unit in parentheses before the comma (e.g., Poughkeepsie (city), New York and Poughkeepsie (town), New York, but not "Poughkeepsie, New York (city)"). Three unincorporated communities bear two states' names due to their peculiar locations across a state line: Glenrio, New Mexico and Texas, Freedom, Idaho and Wyoming, and Ray, Indiana and Michigan.
Cities listed in the AP Stylebook as not requiring the state modifier may have their articles named [[City]] provided they are the primary topic for that name. The cities listed by the AP are Atlanta, Baltimore, Boston, Chicago, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Dallas, Denver, Detroit, Honolulu, Houston, Indianapolis, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Miami, Milwaukee, Minneapolis, New Orleans, New York City, Oklahoma City, Philadelphia, Phoenix, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Salt Lake City, San Antonio, San Diego, San Francisco, Seattle and Washington. No other American city may have its article named [[City]]. Proposals to move any of the above-listed cities are initiated per the instructions at Wikipedia:Requested moves, and should be announced on the talk page of these guidelines.
A United States city's article should never be titled "city, country" (e.g., "Detroit, United States") or "city, state, country" (e.g., "Kansas City, Missouri, USA").
- Copied from the Wikipedia Canadian Style Guide & Naming Convention
- Population and Google-hit comparisons between cities of the same name may be helpful in determining primary usage, but are not conclusive in isolation. For example, Hamilton and Windsor are larger than their namesakes in other countries, but for historical, political or cultural reasons they are both less internationally significant than at least one of their smaller namesakes, and thus do not qualify as primary usages. In one special case, Halifax Regional Municipality, the title is undisambiguated but located at the official name rather than the common "Halifax"; a separate subarticle on the pre-amalgamation city of Halifax is located at City of Halifax. In such cases, however, the plain title should normally be a dab page.
- Cities may also lose out as primary usage to non-city topics — for example, Regina and Prince Albert are both the largest cities of those names, but cannot be considered primary topics as both are overridden by their names' royal connotations.
- Disambiguation pages are not meant to serve as search indices for all Wikipedia articles which have a word in their titles — they are meant only to steer people to the correct choice among articles which could potentially have the same title. For instance, only articles which could potentially be given the title Toronto are to be evaluated when deciding whether that title should be a dab page or an article about the Canadian city. Topics such as Toronto Transit Commission, University of Toronto or Toronto Public Library, which merely contain the word Toronto in a longer name, are not to be considered when making such a decision, as they cannot validly be moved to the plain title "Toronto". A comprehensive article about the city would already include links to these topics anyway.
- Further page moves are permitted. However, a discussion should take place on the article's talk page before a move is implemented, so that we have documented proof that people have put adequate research into the uniqueness or importance of the topic. Do not move an article arbitrarily if this input has not been solicited on the talk page, and do not assume that a name is unique just because another article doesn't already exist at the plain title. Also note that the discussion should take place on the article's talk page, not at WP:NC, which is primarily for discussion about the general aspects of naming conventions. It is also common practice that the discussion be listed under the "Requested moves and mergers" section at WP:CWNB.
- In most cases, an article is a candidate for such a page move if "City" already exists on Wikipedia as a redirect to "City, Province". An article may also be a candidate for such a page move if "City" is a blank redlink. As some confirmation may be needed that a name is actually unique, however, always propose a page move for discussion first as neither of these circumstances is sufficient to justify an arbitrary renaming.
For cities which do not qualify for undisambiguated titles, the correct title format is [[City, Province/Territory]] (the "comma convention"). For the territories, please note that the correct forms are "City, Yukon" (not "City, Yukon Territory") and "City, Nunavut" (not "City, Nunavut Territory"), but "City, Northwest Territories". For the easternmost province, the proper form is "City, Newfoundland and Labrador". Localities that need further disambiguation beyond the province or territory include their county, municipality or parish. (e.g. Armstrong, Thunder Bay District, Ontario, due to the need to disambiguate it from the Armstrong, Ontario in Timiskaming District — as the one in Timiskaming is an incorporated municipality, it gets title precedence.)
A Canadian city's article, however, should never be titled simply "city, Canada" (e.g "Halifax, Canada"), although it is permissible to create a title of this type as a redirect to the properly titled article. Similarly, a title that uses the province's two-letter postal abbreviation should never be the primary article title, although creating a redirect is permitted. You may also create redirects from documentably common misspellings such as "Winnepeg", "Ottowa", "St. Catherine's" or "Iqualuit", although it is not necessary to anticipate every conceivable misspelling that could possibly arise.
Dedicated city categories should always be named with the same title format as the city's main article. That is, if the article is at Toronto, then use "Toronto" rather than "Toronto, Ontario" in category names, but if it's at Regina, Saskatchewan, then name the related categories in the format "Regina, Saskatchewan" rather than "Regina".
A former geographic name, such as Berlin, Ontario, Fraserville, Quebec, Bytown or York, Upper Canada, should only have a separate article if there's something substantial that can be written about the history of that name — otherwise it should exist only as a redirect to the place's current name.
See also Wikipedia:Canadian wikipedians' notice board/Cities, an ongoing project to review which Canadian cities are likely or unlikely to qualify for page moves.
In 2006 the United States editors agreed to partially adopt the Geographic Naming Convention and many parts of the International Naming Convention. This initial discussion can be found here. Follow up and the implementation as well as the additional and final details can be found on the archive pages of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (settlements) and Wikipedia:Naming conventions.
In summary this allowed certain cities like San Diego, Los Angeles, and Boston (to name a few) to exclude the formula <city>, <state> and replace it with <city>, in the AP Stylebook format, if the place was the Primary topic. Canadian editors had already been using the International Naming Convention and had allowed the exclusion of having the province of Canada in the name of a city that was the 'Primary topic'.
Past dispute, on whether Vancouver should link to a disambiguation page or land on the Canadian city, has not been about the ease to the most number of editors, or the fact that the naming conventions exist, but rather if Vancouver (British Columbia) is notable enough to be a primary topic over Vancouver, Washington. What is certain is that this has been the subject of somewhat heated debate over years and will likely continue to do so in the future. Personal loyalty, bias, and overall pride for one's city has clouded the true objective of this Wikipedia -- creating a free encyclopedia. Accessibility is only a small part in the large picture.
Hit count and what links here
In January 2009, the article Vancouver (referring to Vancouver, British Columbia) was visited 136,415 times (an average of 4,400 hits per day), ranking it 968 most visited. The article was visited a total of 1,269,997 times in 2008.  Comparatively, the article Vancouver, Washington was visited 11,023 times (an average of 355 hits per day). The article was visited a total of 121,106 times in 2008. Factoring in the mishits (hits to the article that were intended for other Vancouver-related articles such as Vancouver, Washington or Vancouver Island) the numbers intended for Vancouver, British Columbia are still significantly greater than even the sum of all the articles that share the name and/or content involving the keyword "Vancouver". It was also noted that the redirect Vancouver, British Columbia was visited 8,203 times (an average of 264 hits per day) further contributing to the argument of most easy accessibility to Wikipedians.
- Wikipedia specifies this as the 1st method of determining a Primary topic for disambiguation pages.
Additionally, what links here reports a little under 1,000 English Wikipedia page links to Vancouver, Washington. These include talk pages, templates, signatures, user boxes, redirects, and more. Articles about regions in and around Washington state and articles about US naval ships were among the highest in appearance (just over 50%). The article Vancouver has over 8,500 page links. Sports, biographies, and events were among the highest in appearance (just over 18%). Again the links intended for other Vancouver-related articles that were mistakenly linked were considered, and the article Vancouver, British Columbia with a little under 3,500 links was used as the offset factor.
- Wikipedia specifies this as the 2nd method of determining a Primary topic for disambiguation pages.
Vancouver (British Columbia) was the host city for Expo 86, the 2010 Winter Olympics, and 2010 Winter Paralympics. In January 2009, the article 2010 Winter Olympics was visited 44,861 times (an average of 1,447 hits per day). While the 2008 Summer Olympics were unprecedented, the article was visited 4,519,081 times in August, 2008 (an average of 150,636 times per day).  The article Beijing in the same month was visited 688,198 times (an average of 22,199 times per day). The expectations of the increasing popularity of Wikipedia as a research tool coupled with the popularity of the Olympics gave for strong support to not have Vancouver as a disambiguation page.
Notability of the Vancouvers
Facts about Vancouver: (as found on the WikiProject Vancouver)
- Vancouver is the largest city in British Columbia, Canada (2,116,581).
- Vancouver is Canada's third largest metropolitan centre.
- Vancouver has been consistently ranked among the top five "World's Most Livable Cities".
- Vancouver is North America's largest television production centre and third-largest film production centre.
- Vancouver is North America's second largest port (in tonnage & physical size - after New York).
- Vancouver is the 4th largest cruise ship terminus in the world.
- Vancouver contains both the wealthiest and most impoverished neighbourhoods in Canada.
- Vancouver became a featured article on November 22, 2006.
- Vancouver appeared on the Wikipedia Main Page as Today's featured article on February 8, 2007.
No WikiProject for Vancouver, Washington nor mention of it on the WikiProject Washington exists, though information about the city was readily available on the article itself. The city distinguishes itself with a population of 162,400. It seems to have had a rich history and association with the military (especially the navy) due to the number of articles about US naval ships that link to the main article. Possibly inaccurate, a resident of Vancouver, Washington described it on a major discussion as a suburb city to Portland, Oregon. Much like Richmond, British Columbia is to Metro Vancouver.
An unofficial vote closed by User:Tariqabjotu was done on the Talk:Vancouver (disambiguation). The vote ended on August, 27, 2006 resulting in a 20 - 1 decision not to request a move. A link to notify editors was placed on the Canadian Wikipedians' notice board (the Canadian focal point for all naming convention conflicts and implementation) as well as Wikipedia Naming Conventions (the United States and main Wikipedia focal point for all naming conventions, conflicts, and implementation).
A second vote, supervised by Wikipedia Administrator User:JHunterJ, 3 years later, and the most recent was taken at Wikipedia_talk:Disambiguation/Archive_28#Vancouver_versus_Vancouver.2C_Washington. Messages were posted to members of the following to participate.
The voted ended on February 10, 2009 resulting in a 20 - 1 decision not to move the article Vancouver to Vancouver, British Columbia (or another name) and make Vancouver a disambiguation page.
A google test based upon link usage has Vancouver (British Columbia) listed on the top 11 search results. The 12th spot is the City of Vancouver, Washington, and then the next 20 results are Vancouver, BC related. While Google tests cannot be definitive and generally not solely used to decide WP:N especially on WP:AfD, it is commonly used as an argumentative point.
- Wikipedia specifies this as the 3rd method of determining a Primary topic for disambiguation pages.
Article talk pages
Welcome to Wikipedia Bureaucracy. As a resident of Vancouver, Canada, I of course have my own biases and this essay is far from perfect. I simply did the best I could to logically rationalize, support, and present my argument in a way that not only reflects what the rest of Wikipedia is doing, that we're following convention, but also by readership accessibility.
I was discussing the pros and cons with a fellow editor about why disambiguation pages exist and for the sheer consistency and fairness make every shared name link first to a disambiguation page. After all, not everyone wants to go to just one article. Then came the analogies. On a dusty road a pedestrian can cross it whenever they like. Some more busy streets have pedestrian controlled crosswalks. The number of cars moving down the street might significantly outnumber the pedestrian wanting to cross the road but at some point they need to cross, so we accommodate them (insert one disambiguation page). Perhaps its an intersection with 2 busy roads and many pedestrians, the majority of them all moving in one direction, but we have lights. Now imagine a highway. An overhead walkway is more inconvenient, but it defeats the purpose of having a highway if you put stops in every step of the way. In the end it works out for some greater good.
The fact is this is the way we all live our lives in this society of ours. There are fast lanes, and slower traffic keeps right. Highways and walkways, lineups and NEXUS card lineups. All for the purpose of making our travels that much more quick. We have naturally brought that chaotic organization with us to Wikipedia. Not everyone wins, but no one really loses. The entire internet has been based upon clicking links. The average number of times a person clicks is between 450 - 1,500 in a day -- what is 1 more?
- ^ Goldstein, Norm (2004). "Stylebook, section D: datelines". The Associated Press Stylebook and Briefing on Media Law (39th ed.). New York: Basic Books/Associated Press. pp. p.66. ISBN 9780465004881.
- ^ a b Vancouver Hit Count - Stats.Grok.Se
- ^ Vancouver 2008 Hit Count - Stats.Grok.Se
- ^ Vancouver, Washington Hit Count - Stats.Grok.Se
- ^ Vancouver, Washington 2008 Hit Count - Stats.Grok.Se
- ^ Vancouver, British Columbia Hit Count - Stats.Grok.Se
- ^ Vancouver, Washington - What links here
- ^ Vancouver - What links here
- ^ Vancouver, British Columbia - What links here
- ^ 2010 Winter Olympics - Stats.Grok.Se
- ^ 2008 Summer Olympics - Stats.Grok.Se
- ^ Beijing - Stats.Grok.Se
- ^ Stats.Grok.se February & Stats.Grok.se March 2010 In the end, the page 2010 Winter Olympics was viewed 2,951,950 times in the month of February 2010, and 579,620 in March 2010.
- ^ Google: Vancouver - Google test on February 9, 2009.
- ^ "A comparison of muscular activity during single and double mouse clicks". Department of Product and Production Development/Human Factors Engineering, Chalmers University of Technology, 412 96, Goteborg, Sweden. 2009.
- The above essay is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
I'm conducting a new survey since the last was done 3 years ago (an editors lifetime on Wikipedia) at 2009 Vancouver Vs. Vancouver, Washington Survey. Your input would be most appreciated. Mkdwtalk 21:23, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
This talk page is full of discussions about the location of this disambiguation page. All of them amount to a debate about whether there is a primary topic for "vancouver", or if there is in fact no primary topic and the disambiguation page should be at the page name Vancouver. For what it's worth, this is being discussed more generally on Wikipedia talk:Requested moves#Precedent?. Compared to other examples there, the page view ratio of Vancouver (disambiguation) vs Vancouver supports the argument that the article now at the page name Vancouver is the primary topic. For September 2010 the page views ratio was 1519/173135 = 0.9%. That is low. 22.214.171.124 (talk) 03:27, 4 October 2010 (UTC)