Talk:Vatican City

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Former featured article candidate Vatican City is a former featured article candidate. Please view the links under Article milestones below to see why the nomination failed. For older candidates, please check the archive.
Article milestones
Date Process Result
February 3, 2005 Featured article candidate Not promoted
January 7, 2007 Peer review Reviewed
On this day... Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on February 11, 2005, February 11, 2006, February 11, 2007, February 11, 2008, and February 11, 2009.
Current status: Former featured article candidate
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Population by Gender[edit]

The article seems to contain neither of the substrings "wom" & "fem", and contains "male" only in connection with the Swiss Guard. I suggest that it should state the approximate numbers of male and female residents and citizens in the [authorised] population, even if the latter be zero. 94.30.84.71 (talk) 23:13, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Do you have a WP:RS that reports a census by sex? I don't. Student7 (talk) 22:12, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Women Suffrage[edit]

I reverted an edit about women suffrage at Vatican City. Vatican is a state ruled by an absolute monarch, and neither men nor women have the right to vote (actually, they have no political right at all). Morevoer, the author of the article makes a mistake when it cites as example the cardinals electing the Pope in the Conclave, since they are not Vatican citizens, unless they live in Rome or in Vatican City. Alex2006 (talk) 06:00, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi, You undid my edit on voting in the Vatican City and I don't think your reasoning is correct. Your reasoning: "Vatican is a state ruled by an absolute monarch, and neither men nor women have the right to vote". This is false. See the Wikipedia page for Vatican City, it states "The politics of Vatican City takes place in an absolute elective monarchy" the key word being elective. The Cardinals do vote and elect the head of state, and Cardinals can only be men under the structure of the Catholic Church. Citizenship here is not the issue, since citizenship in Vatican City is not required for choosing it's head of state. The issue is that only men are allowed to vote in the election, while women are specifically banned. It is important to consider the Vatican City State as an internationally recognized independent state here. I would consider moving my edit to a different place in the page, but I do think it is important information that needs to be in the article and have already considered my placement carefully. I will wait for your response before reverting my edit. I appreciate you leaving your reason on my talk page so we can discuss what is best. Flessner89 (talkcontribs) 20:44, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
I think that you are mixing several things together. No election has ever taken place in Vatican City. The Pope's election by the Cardinals is the election of the bishop of Rome, who is the chief of the Holy See. It is the Holy See, through the figure of the Pope, which has full sovereignty above Vatican City. It is the Catholic (that is, universal) church which elects his chief, and this explains why the Vatican Citizenship is not an issue in this context. In fact, besides the few Cardinals living in Vatican city or in Rome, no Cardinal is a Vatican Citizen. But Vatican City is a state, altough of a very special type and with a limited sovereignty, and this is the context of this article. In this context, some women do live in the state, and we are interested to know whether they have voting right or no, exctly like italian women in Italy or American women in the U.S.. Well, the answer is no, but this has nothing to do with their Vatican citizenship. They cannot elect the Pope since they are not part of the church organization, which is an ecclesiastic organization made by men who are ordered priest (and then maybe reach the cardinalate). Anyway, exactly the same applies for the men who are Vatican Citizen and are not priests ("laici"). I repeat, here you are mixing contexts: your reasoning is: since the pope is elected by the cardinals and the cardinals are only men, then the women in Vatican City have no voting right. But no catholic woman wherever she lives in the world has voting right concerning any decisions inside the catholic church, not just the women living in Vatican city. And, as I wrote above, in Vatican neither men nor women have whatsoever rights. A second problem of your edit is the source: one sentence in an article on a newspaper about women rights in Saudi Arabia cannot be defined exactly as a RS to support your assertion, which is quite strong. Alex2006 (talk) 13:59, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

I attended the Good Friday Service at a popular and very busy Basilica in our Canadian city. There must have been about 900 people in attendance, many more than usual, as the church was filled and there were about 100 more in the lower chapel, faithful who were watching the Service on a screen.

It seemed to take as much time for veneration of the cross as it took for the rest of the Service. There is likely a very special significance to having just one cross venerated on Good Friday, in each church, but it seems logical and sensible to utilize, perhaps, three crosses, one for each isle and even a fourth in the lower chapel, and when there is such a large crowd in attendance. Also, parking in that particular area is a problem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.32.136.7 (talk) 02:00, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Link to Vatican telephone service[edit]

A link to the Vatican telephone service could be used in the communications section.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Fritzmann2002 (talkcontribs) 17:36, 10 April 2015‎

Latin in infobox[edit]

We have a note which explains that the Vatican City State uses Italian and the Holy See uses Latin. Sigehelmus is insisting on inserting Latin into the infobox header, trying to justify this with a note that states, "..this name is used in official documents by not just the Holy See (distinct from the Vatican City State), but in most official Church and Papal documents." As the note (and the editor) acknowledges that Latin is not used by the Vatican City, why is this relevant to the infobox? The Vatican City is distinct from the Holy See and the Roman Curia. Even with the note, this will be confusing for readers.

Can I have some clarification and/or agreement for removing the Latin name? -- HazhkTalk 10:49, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the discussion. :) I may have worded it wrong. Even though officially Latin is not used in the City-State in the same way as the Holy See, leaving only the Italian translation can also mislead readers to believe Italian, English, etc are only used there even in documents, and the average reader will still tend to confuse the two entities of the Vatican City State and Holy See together even after reading the article (even I do!). I believe the note therefore kills two birds with one stone with the clarification in a concise manner, and instead of removing it any help in clarity would be appreciated and help the article overall.--Sigehelmus (talk) 18:32, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
The reason I reverted your edit is because countless editors have attempted to insert "Latin" as an official language and push for the Latin name to be included in the lead. We already have a note concisely explaining that Latin is used by the Holy See ("the Vatican") but not the Vatican City State.
I feel your edits are even more confusing for readers, who may be wondering why we show a Latin name in the lead and then go on to explain that Latin is not an official language in the Vatican City. I understand why you are trying to include the Latin name, and I do not intend to personally criticise you - but this is an issue that has been raised many times and the clear consensus is to display only Italian as the official language (since Latin isn't an official language) and, as per the standard for country articles, only show names in the official language(s).--HazhkTalk 22:49, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
See, for example, some of the discussions in the archives of this talk page: Talk:Vatican_City/Archive_2. -- HazhkTalk 22:53, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
Hm, well in this case I believe that the Latin name does have a novel and notable use and is cited in these three links (two encyclopedia-like, one book, from simple web search):
http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/vatican.htm
http://www.sheppardsoftware.com/Europeweb/snapshot/Vatican.htm
https://books.google.com/books?id=Lzi4N-74QmAC&pg=PA718&lpg=PA718&dq=status+civitatis+vaticanae&source=bl&ots=H-KagM3iNK&sig=flCR4GA3u6y57NKyrYCwFVZYRI0&hl=en&sa=X&ei=POBbVfLXKbDnsATzqYDQCA&ved=0CB0Q6AEwADge#v=onepage&q=status%20civitatis%20vaticanae&f=false
Perhaps Wikipedia:COMPROMISE could apply here? :)--Sιgε |д・) 01:28, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
The sources you provide are obscure and not authoritative. Latin isn't an official language, so the Latin name should not be displayed prominantly in the lead or infobox. I don't see what can be compromised on here. -- HazhkTalk 16:40, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
Hmm, obscure? Well there are political entities that do not have an official language for a particular language that show translations in at least the main body, such as Lombardy. Also there are many that have none at all that rely on de facto languages such as America itself. I would say the Vatican City does have a de facto reliance as Latin, as the nation often works syncretically with the Holy See as one body. What I mean by compromise maybe is that the infobox translation be removed, but kept in the main? After all, Latin is a confusing language and the City State is oft-referred as Status Civitatis Vaticanae in Papal documents.--Sιgε |д・) 18:57, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps a compromise could be creating an "etymology" or "name" section (a section commonly found in other country articles) telling the reader why the state is named the 'Vatican City' and explaining that the official name is in Italian yet Catholic Church documents also use Latin. It would be an expansion of the note you added. It's a confusing situation, since the Vatican City State is legally distinct from the Holy See/Catholic Church, yet inseparable linked at the same time. -- HazhkTalk 16:49, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
That sounds good! Try that so I know what you're talking about, seems interesting.--Sιgε |д・) 17:31, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
I've started the section. You may want to expand the second paragraph. -- HazhkTalk 19:23, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
Eh, I just did some minor work for now and removed the Latin name from the infobox. Is that OK? I need to look up ome more information to see if I can add anything else to the section.--Sιgε |д・) 21:31, 23 May 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, I lived at least 30 years in Italy, I have been several times in Vatican in contact with the administrative offices and it is really strange to me that Latin is not considered official language. Any official document is in Latin, also in the administrative offices. Instead there is no one saying that Italian is official too. So I suggest to do what is done in the Italian article where Latin and Italian are considered official languages. In addition I have not understood the difference between Holy See and Vatican City. I understood what you mean but the Vatican merges the religious hierarchy with the administrative one, the main body of the administration is the Roman Curia and the Roman Curia uses Latin. The two are the same, it's really strange to me to know that they have to be split. --Ilario (talk) 08:30, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Latin Language[edit]

Sorry, I add again Latin and Italian as done in every other articles in other languages in Wikipedia.

Vatican City has not an official language because it has not a constitution but the executive body publishes the law in the Acta Apostolicae sedis and these documents are in Italian and in Latin. It's sufficient to open some of them to find that both languages are used an example except when there is an international agreement. Please don't read a single page but scroll down the documents.

The same Pope uses Latin for official documents (for instance to nominate members of the ecclesiastic hierarchy or members of the administration) and the Pope is the head of state of the Vatican City. Benedict XVI resigned with this official document. Even if we consider them documents of the Holy See, they have a value also in the organization of the Vatican State.

I would add that the document considered as main source for Italian language as single official language has been substituted by December 31, 2008 with this new document, please read the abstract of this document.

Anyway I am an Italian speaker and I have not found any mention to use only Italian in the paragraph 2 of the Legge sulle fonti del diritto of 7 June 1929 neither in the seven paragraphs of the new Legge sulle fonti del diritto [[1].

It remains clear that at the moment the "Acta Apostolicae Sedis" continues to publish official documents in Italian and in Latin. --Ilario (talk) 09:37, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I came here at Ilario's suggestion. I'd say it is certainly true and not controversial that Latin continues to be an official language of the Catholic church and therefore of the Vatican.
Encyclicals and other public documents are in Latin, and are cited by their first Latin words (as they have been for centuries). The latest is Pope Francis's Lumen fidei. The text is available on the Vatican website in several languages -- the others are official languages of various countries, but Latin is in the list because it is an official language of the Vatican. As can be seen here, Lumen fidei is the title because these are the first words of the Latin text -- in ways like this Latin functions as the first official language of the Vatican. Another example: the choice of a new Pope is publicly announced in Latin (and not in Italian or other languages). Andrew Dalby 15:23, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
Please see the countless past discussions; the Holy See ("the Vatican") is distinct from the Vatican City, which is an independent state. Functions like the announcement of a new pope, or papal documents, or Vatican documents, are not directly related to the Vatican City. The Acta Apostolicae Sedis, like many other "Vatican" documents, is the official gazette of the Holy See/Vatican. Certainly the Catholic Church hierarchy and the Vatican City are inseparably linked, which is why Latin is so prevalent in the Vatican City and institutions based in the state, but this does not make Latin an official language. --Hazhk (talk) 00:32, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

File:Vatican City map EN.png to appear as POTD[edit]

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Vatican City map EN.png will be appearing as picture of the day on August 7, 2015. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2015-08-07. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page. Thanks! — Chris Woodrich (talk) 01:07, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Picture of the day
Map of Vatican City

A map of Vatican City (click for full resolution), highlighting notable buildings and the Vatican Gardens. The world's smallest independent state and the episcopal see of the Pope, Vatican City is entirely surrounded by the Italian city of Rome. As such, its geography is primarily urban and its climate similar to Italy's.

Map: Thoroe
ArchiveMore featured pictures...


External links modified[edit]

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Condoms/birth control[edit]

Can you buy condoms and birth control in Vatican City? 24.51.217.118 (talk) 00:53, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 September 2015[edit]

the current Official Website link (for Vatican City's English website) is incorrect, and presents the following error: "Not Found The requested object does not exist on this server. The link you followed is either outdated, inaccurate, or the server has been instructed not to let you have it." The correct website is: http://www.vaticanstate.va/content/vaticanstate/en.html Wishinoo (talk) 13:42, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done Changes have been made.- McMatter (talk)/(contrib) 14:16, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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Reichskonkordat[edit]

Um guys.... Anyone heard of a thing called the Reichskonkordat? 86.31.170.104 (talk) 21:14, 27 January 2016 (UTC)

Of course. The holy See, starting with that of Worms, has signed several treaties with European states. Usually they are signed with states having a strong Catholic component. Alex2006 (talk) 07:16, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

Walls[edit]

Searching "wall" gives 11 results for this article. Could we have a section or article that discusses the walls in more detail? Would this be more appropriate for Geography of Vatican City? I'm not sure if structures count as part of geography or not. It's only mentioned there once so there seems to be less to go on. 184.145.18.50 (talk) 23:37, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified[edit]

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