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- 1. Siemowit lived befor Rurik
- 2. Gallus Anonymus was a chronicler
- 3. "There is a debate over how Rurik came to control Novgorod" and "Even though Rurik was probably legendary.." (see Rurik)
--Emax 23:56, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Siemowit probably never existed. The article on Rurik will be re-written soon. But Siemowit and Rurik have nothing to do with this article. The only significant fact is that veche was the most important political institution of Rus. In Poland, it was remembered primarily through legends. --Ghirlandajo 7:22, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- "Siemowit probably never existed" - like Rurik. :) Siemowit is considered as legendary Piast prince, because no sources mentioned him from outside of Poland (only the chronicle of Gallus Anonymus).--Emax 12:32, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Dear Emax, please be so kind to avoid emotions lest your national pride darken your eyes. Your Siemowit is as legendary as Rurik and Polish paragraph does not contain any dates. So, as i mentioned, mixing legends with facts is a worse thing to do. Besides, in article's structure we are trying to follow it's name sequence (if you noticed it is called Veche/Wiec not vice versa. I would insist on puttin 'Rus' part first. No offence. maqs 08:58, Dec 27, 2004 (UTC)
- "if you noticed it is called Veche/Wiec not vice versa" - because the article was created by "Mark from Moscow" :) --Emax 12:32, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
- But the Piasts were already historical rulers since Mieszko I (c. 935-992) and its disputed how the legendary Rurik came to control of Novgorod (a Viking chosen by Slavs on a Wiec, sounds not really realistic)... You said, "mixing legends with facts is a worse thing to do" :) Ok, its not important to me, lets stop this discussion--Emax 14:13, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
A bold question
Sorry for being bold and I hope I will not assault anyone's sentiments - and this is just curiosity I myself don`t know much about the veche nor the pronunciation of Russian - but here goes: does any Russian / Slavic author suggest that the word 'veche' might be related to Finnish / Karelian 'väki' (meaning crowd, folk)? Just a thought since Baltic-Finnic seems to have been spoken in Novgorod... Clarifer (talk) 14:49, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
A bold answer
Yes, it is a direct copy of Finnish (all Finno Ugrians, including also Karelians) kerejät / käräjät which was from ancient times (c.1000 - 600 BC) to provide justice for free men. Every free man had a justice or right to call käräjät to solve the problems what he had with another participant. Also called: vapaan miehen oikeus (free men´s justice). The käräjäoikeus was chosed from members of käräjäväki (justice folk / volk), who participated in käräjät which might be called also a public meeting of village, heimo, or people. Usually the levels were: kyläkäräjät (village justice), heimokäräjät (tribal justice), kansankäräjät (people justice) etc. The place where justice was dealed was Käräjäpaikka. The whole system was adopted in the laws of the trading town Uuslinna / Uuskaupunki (Novgorod) (see: Endangered people In Imperial Russia; The Votes) and only later, when they formed the majority of the population of Novgorod, claimed by the Russians to be their own system. However, the lowest level of justice system in Finland is still called Käräjäoikeus (Käräjä justice) where there are the three members (two maallikkotuomari (unprofessional) and one professional judge. In case that the members do not agree of their judgement they vote and if the non-professional members vote against the professional judge their view is prevailing in the judgement of Käräjäoikeus. If the perticipant is not satisfied to the judgement of the Käräjäoikeus he / she can complain of the judgement and the case go further to Hovioikeus (Court / Hov / Hof / Dvor Justice). The three, six, or nine (depending the size of Käräjät), members usually set down on käräjäkivi (stones). At the beginning of käräjät the Käräjäpeace (Justice peace) was declared by the elders. If one broke this eternal memoried rule he was senected to death without mercy. Usually the members (3) of käräjätuomarit (käräjä judges) were selected among the elders who had long time experience to deal the justice on right way. I believe this practice was uncommon to the people who were under the local Ruhtinaz (Knjäz) who contolled, ruled, and doomed as he liked. The system of tribal elders was totally unknown to the Slavonic tribes who had always been ruled by the ruler, not by themselves in practice. They have always admired powerful personal rulers to rule themself and were used to be ruled. The words valvoa (control), hallita, (adminstrate), and vallita (rule) are all poison to Finno Ugrian ears, even today. In Finland there exist still jokamiehen oikeus (everymen justice) to walk, talk, fish, even hunt in state owned land (today of course with hunting permission) and move freely in outside the neighbour´s eye watched area, even if the estate land or farm is owned by another. Totally uncommon to all Slavic people outside those now living in Siberia.
When looking the offical name of Republic of Finland in native language it is Suomen Tasavalta (Finland´s Equalpower), quite unique naming compared to Indo-European Republic / Respublika.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 17:25, 22 August 2008 (UTC)