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Religion - Hinduism[edit]

According to Hindu-Buddhist philosophy, using pesticides in field crops cause many animals to be killed, probably more so than all meat eaters combined. Clearing large areas for crops also causes hardship to many animals who are displaced as a result of this. Being vegetarian does not mean that no animals have been killed in cultivating crops and any ethical arguments to support this perception does not hold up.[1]

Vegetarianism has also led to possible displacement of the Indus Valley civilization to the east (Bihar) and/or may have merged with an older settlement there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talkcontribs)


  1. ^ "To Cherish All Life [;". 1982. Retrieved October 1, 2014.

Why was the Lead section removed?[edit]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Vegetables are not static and have domestication before animals. Vegetarianism is eating plants and the article was improved opening with it.

Vegetarianism /vɛɪˈtɛəriənɪzəm/ is the art or science which teaches to cull, dispose, and modify for food productions of the vegetable kingdom, and thus the practice of abstaining from the consumption of meat (red meat, poultry, seafood, and the flesh of any other animal), and may also include abstention from by-products of animal slaughter.[1]

  1. ^ Horsell, William (1859). The Vegetarians Armed At All Points. London. p. 4.

Also its improper to open with what something is by what it isn't.

which teaches to cull, dispose, and modify for food productions of the vegetable kingdom, and thus the practice of abstaining from the consumption of meat is a non-sequitur. People can know how to eat vegetables and also still eat meat. The act of excluding certain foods from one's diet can only be described by what it is not. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:14, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

"the practice of abstaining"

  • Abstention: To hold oneself back.
  • Practice: Repetition of an activity to improve a skill.

Is there a more neutral description of not eating meat? I doubt vegetarians have to hold themselves back from eating meat nor are they improving their skill of not eating meat.

You're looking at the wrong definition. "Practice" in this sense is "A customary action, habit, or behaviour; a manner or routine." See wikt:practice. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:14, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
Eating meat is the routine, if it were the first diet there would be no life on the planet. Please address the my first comment.- (talk) 01:18, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
Your entire question is based on misunderstandings.
Vegetarians abstain from meat. Abstain can also mean "Refrain from (something or doing something); keep from doing." See wikt:abstain.
For vegetarians, eating things besides meat is their routine. For omnivores, eating both meat and vegetables is the routine.
Ian.thomson (talk) 01:20, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
Keep as in take something from? Holding oneself back reads difficult. Also it is improper to open with a negation. - (talk) 01:27, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
It is not improper to open with a negation in English. I'm saying this as a native speaker, who had a university reading level before finishing primary school, who has a degree in English, and whose career is teaching English.
The problem is not the sentence, the problem is your comprehension of English. You may have an easier time with the Simple English Wikipedia. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:34, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
Agreed. The tone is reads difficult. With herbivory being the first source of food for life on earth it does not require repetition, nor is it customary or habitual. Again if life was carnivorous first there would be no speciation (in technical terms there would only be one living creature). Eating meat is the habit since the nutrients attained are found in plants at a higher cost of digestion since carnivores must sift through their shared common ancestor. - (talk) 01:45, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
It read "The problem is the sentence" before, No practice nor abstention are involved in vegetarianism. Also it requires study of plants to grow plants that we like. It is more than rejection which is how it reads at the time of this comment: "is the practice of abstaining from the consumption of meat" Also why is meat split into subcategories? - (talk) 02:03, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
Propagating difficulty is dissuasive.
Example of explaining what is "A semi-vegetarian or flexitarian diet is one that is plant-based with the occasional inclusion of meat. - (talk) 02:33, 2 December 2018 (UTC)


Vegetarianism is a practice, you just don't know all the different uses of that word.
Vegetarians abstain from meat, you just don't understand what the word "abstain" means.
It's entirely possible for a vegetarian to know nothing about farming. All one has to do to be a vegetarian is to stop eating meat.
Ian.thomson (talk) 04:36, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
A Vegetarian may also know nothing about abstaining meat. Vegetarianism is foremost the consumption of vegetation. The philosophy that goes into eating meat precedes anything vegetarianism has come up with. - (talk) 15:18, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
You remain way too confident in continually mistaken assumptions.
No, lots of people eat both meat and vegetables and they're not vegetarian. Eating meat and eating vegetables are not mutually exclusive. Being a vegetarian and eating meat are mutually exclusive.
The majority of people who eat meat have no philosophy behind it, they just do it. Ian.thomson (talk) 15:33, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
Herbivorism predates eating meat. There is philosophy for eating our ancestors. There's barely any, if any at all, for eating plants. The article lead is very confusing. My udnerstanding of abstinence is difficulty, self discipline. This is not what Vegetarianism is; again we were herbivorous first. It is our tendency. - (talk) 15:41, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
Philosophers have rarely commented on eating animals, except to delineate which ones to not eat.
The problem is not the article, it is your comprehension. Go read simple:Vegetarianism instead, as that is probably more on your level. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:02, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
The opening sentence reads difficulty, specialty, effort. Practice and abstinence are sided. Vegetarianism is eating plants. While maintaining this diet, there are cultures that have observed behaviors of carnivore societies that led to them extending philosophy, like equality and fairness in treatment, instead of "I don't care what that monkey is up to." For a child researching vegetarianism, it does not supportive to read this authoritative article like it takes effort, practice, discipline, nor that they should adhere to the extremities of its philosophy - (talk) 16:11, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
It reads difficultly to you. It does not read difficultly to native speakers, nor to second language speakers who are willing to learn the different meanings of words. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:16, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
What is meant by "you." What does that "you" mean to you?
from US National Library of Medicine "A vegetarian diet focuses on plants for food." - (talk) 16:28, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Vegetarianism /vɛɪˈtɛəriənɪzəm/ is the science or art of raising and consuming advantageous culinary and medicinal plants for humans,[1] with philosophies extending into the abstinence of the the consumption of animal flesh (red meat, poultry, seafood, and may also include abstention from by-products of animal slaughter.[2][3][4][5]

Vegetarianism is a derivative of herbivory. It is food raised by humans agriculturally, where philosophy grew out of a response to human carnivore practice. Humans abstained from their herbivorous tendency. The science of raising foods that are preferential for humans is vegetarianism, or else vegetarians would know to walk outside and eat leaves off a tree or sticks on the ground. Above I've written the lead again which should explain what vegetarianism is before a facet of what it is not. - (talk) 20:52, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

  1. ^ Horsell, William (1859). The Vegetarians Armed At All Points. London. p. 4.
  2. ^ "What is a vegetarian?". Vegetarian Society. Archived from the original on March 18, 2018. Retrieved March 18, 2018.
    A vegetarian is someone who lives on a diet of grains, pulses, legumes, nuts, seeds, vegetables, fruits, fungi, algae, yeast and/or some other non-animal-based foods (e.g. salt) with, or without, dairy products, honey and/or eggs. A vegetarian does not eat foods that consist of, or have been produced with the aid of products consisting of or created from, any part of the body of a living or dead animal. This includes meat, poultry, fish, shellfish*, insects, by-products of slaughter** or any food made with processing aids created from these.
  3. ^ "FAQ: Gelatin". IVU World Vegfest. International Vegetarian Union. March 8, 2013. Archived from the original on April 3, 2014. Retrieved March 18, 2018.
     'Kosher Gelatin Marshmallows: Glatt Kosher and "OU-Pareve",' an article that appeared in Kashrus Magazine, explains the distinctions. A quote from the article is as follows: '...since the gelatin product is from hides or bones—not real flesh—and has undergone such significant changes, it is no longer considered 'fleishig' (meat) but 'pareve', and can be eaten with dairy products.' [...] Rennet is like gelatin in the sense that it's a common food additive but the foods containing it are often considered vegetarian.
  4. ^ "Why Avoid Hidden Animal Ingredients?". North American Vegetarian Society. Archived from the original on March 18, 2018. Retrieved March 18, 2018.
    Surprisingly, some people who consider themselves vegetarian continue to consume products that contain remains of slaughtered animals such as gelatin (made from ground-up skin and bones, found in Jell-O, supplement capsules, and photographic film) and rennet (made from the lining of calves' stomachs, used to coagulate hard cheese). Some of these people may be unaware that these hidden animal ingredients even exist. Others know about them but feel that they are just minor components of a product, and that their presence is therefore not important. [...] Many people who do not eat meat for ethical reasons do use animal by-products that are obtained while the animals are still alive. Dairy is a good example, as many vegetarians who consume it rationalize their behavior by pointing out that cows are not killed in order to provide humans with this particular by-product.
  5. ^ Forrest, Jamie (December 18, 2007). "Is Cheese Vegetarian?". Serious Cheese. Serious Eats. Archived from the original on March 18, 2018. Retrieved March 18, 2018. Some vegetarians are OK eating cheeses made with animal rennet, but many will seek out ones made with vegetarian rennet, especially since the latter are quite prevalent nowadays.

Request for Comment[edit]

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
This is going nowhere, and is an inappropriate use of the WP:RFC process. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:08, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Why does the lead sentence for the article Vegetarianism begin non-neutrally? Why does it lack information on what it is in totality, instead addressing its philosophy? (talk) 22:38, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

1. Herbivory is the first diet. Multicellular life evolved plants first and they are the first that made land fall. Locomotive life ate herbivorously first as evidenced by studying fossils.

2.If carnivorism existed first there would be no animal speciation.

3. The article reads "abstain from..." which implies conscious action against tendency, akin to the biological imperative of reproduction that monks or nuns practice, fighting against the tendency to reproduce. Herbivory is tendency and thus carnivores abstain from eating vegetation.

4. Vegetarianism is art and science, meeting the preference of humans who harness plants via agriculture for medicinal and culinary preference. Philosophies grew out of witnessing carnivore and cannibal culture. Vegetarianism diet is a derivative of herbivory. Otherwise vegetarians would eat leaves and sticks from trees.

5. Vegetarianism /vɛdʒɪˈtɛəriənɪzəm/ is the practice of abstaining from the consumption of meat (red meat, poultry, seafood, and the flesh of any other animal), and may also include abstention from by-products of animal slaughter. To open with the article with implicity difficulty is offputting and we know what meat and it should not split up by our own definition of carnivorism is. A shark is carnivorous because we've seen it eat meat. - (talk) 22:38, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

What is your brief and neutral statement? Also, see WP:RFCBEFORE. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 23:24, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
Added after the lead. - (talk) 23:40, 2 December 2018 (UTC)
The lead does not begin non-neutrally. And seeing your arguments in the section above and seeing how this RfC is formatted, I will refrain from debating you unless necessary. I suggest you read the archives about the lead and why it is the way it is. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 07:01, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Abstinence in non-neutral, similarly with practice. Both are implicit of discipline and learning. Vegetarians are not taking Karate lessons or Chastity oaths. Additionally Vegetarianism is preferential because it is an integration of herbivory. It is the preparation of desirable vegetation and is therefore scientific and an art form. This precludes any philosophy stemming from observance of carnivore cultures that vegetarian societies have extended from their own wellnesss, the opening sentence and subsequent paragraphs focus on the philosophy of vegetarianism which should be a section of it and not the primary focus. Certainly the vegetables have to be made and supplied in order for these opinions and observations to exist and be functional in mental facets lest vegetarians simply walk outside and eat fallen leaves and roughage. It is non neutral and forces readers to consider philosophy before simplicity.

Vegetarianism integrates behavior of herbivory and requires human preparation of crops deemed advantageous for cultural, culinary and medicinal purposes.

This is not an appropriate place for this conversation. This also isn't an appropriate use of an RfC. NickCT (talk) 17:00, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
  • Where's the appropriate place? - (talk) 21:34, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
Not on Wikipedia. Ian.thomson (talk) 21:47, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.