Talk:Venice

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Motto of Venice[edit]

I just came across this page -- it is excellent.

However, what I was looking for (an incription on a statute of a lion holding a book) was not included. I did find this on another web page and think that it would be useful to add to this web page.

Best wishes,

John Reindl October 31, 2009

The motto of Venice (Pax – Evan, Tibi – Geli, Mar – Sta, Ce – Meus) is the traditional shortened version of the Latin phrase “Pax tibi, Marce, Evangelista meus. Hic requiescet corpus tuum,” which translates to “Peace to you, Mark, my Evangelist. Here your body shall rest.” According to Venetian tradition, the blessing was spoken by an angel to Saint Mark during his visit to Venice and justified the Venetian theft of the Saint’s body from Alexandria. The image of the Lion with an inscribed book has appeared in countless locations throughout Venice over the past millennium and is the emblem and landmark of Venice.

Reference: http://95.110.194.207/CatalogoRenaissance/catalogo/renaissance/pdf/low/eng/LOT%2032.pdf, accessed October 31, 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.135.73.110 (talk) 23:34, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

"Acquisition of the relics of St. Mark the Evangelist"[edit]

"In 828, the new city's prestige was raised by the acquisition of the claimed relics of St. Mark the Evangelist from Alexandria, which were placed in the new basilica."

Could you please be more precise with the verb "acquisition": was it a purchase or a robbery or something else? These relics are very important to the city and tourists so I believe this information should be more specific. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.109.123.11 (talk) 14:44, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Venice in Veneto[edit]

According to Venice page in Veneto, it says Venice is Venesia in Veneto language. However, here in English page, it is written as Venexia, in French page, it's Veneszia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aquablue5 (talkcontribs) 17:08, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Services[edit]

I am curious how services like water, sewerage, electricity, fire fighting and ambulances are provided in Venice. All of these things that many take for granted must present a particular challenge in a city where many of the "streets" are waterways. I think it would make a useful addition to the article if someone has access to that information. Silverchemist (talk) 18:13, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Geminated t?[edit]

The article currently claims that Venezia is pronounced [veˈnɛttsja], but I do not hear the geminated t. Come to that, I also don't really agree with the j, and I'm not convinced the two e's are different. I admit I'm not a native speaker. Where does this pronunciation come from? --Trovatore (talk) 21:06, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

I'm not a native speaker either, but I have removed the geminated t, for the simple reason that Italian writing is very close to Standard Italian pronunciation, so when they want to geminate sounds, they actually geminate them. As ts is z, tts would be zz of course, well known in the non-English-pronounced pizza; but never a single z. I didn't hear the geminated t in the audio example, either.--2001:A61:20D6:BA01:5DFE:7093:86E4:B74 (talk) 11:55, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Commune??[edit]

The word "commune" has a completely-different meaning in American and Canadian English - and probably in British English, too.
The word "commune" is grossly misused in this article.
We see problems like this often in articles that were written by Continental Europeans who do not have a good grasp on English. We see it also in words like "metropolis". In real English, a "metropolis" is a big urban area like London, Manchester, New York City, Los Angeles, Tokyo, Rio de Janiero, Sydney, and Bangkok. A metropolis is not a farming village somewhere. A farming village somewhere, or some similar place, might be a commune.98.67.106.90 (talk) 04:15, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Resources[edit]

There needs to be an section about resources.96.254.152.101 (talk) 14:29, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Jews lived under better conditions?[edit]

"Napoleon was seen as something of a liberator by the city's Jewish population, although it can be argued they had lived with fewer restrictions in Venice" Source? What arguments? Why? 108.29.193.124 (talk) 18:28, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Name(s) pronunciation[edit]

If I understand correctly, the article maintains that the form Venexia is pronunced [veˈnɛsja] with a voiceless sibilant. Actually, while /veˈnɛsja/ is the current spoken form of the name, the written form Venexia contained the voiceD sibilant X (the same as Eng. xylophone and today's Ven. xe) and thus most probably corresponded to an older pronunciation /veˈnɛzja/. This is also confirmed by its old Italian rendering Vinegia (with voiced g), which is completely parallel to the venetian word xogàtolo/zogàtolo that has been rendered as Giocattolo in Italian. As a matter of fact, near the older written form Venexia, which some people are reviving today, also a newer written form Venesia exists (with It. orthography Venessia), which renders the moder voiceless sibilant. All in all: old written form Venexia corresponds to old voiced pronunciation /veˈnɛzja/; written form Venesia corresponds to the current spoken form [veˈnɛsja]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.95.207.85 (talk) 17:37, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Still very unbalanced[edit]

As I pointed out already in 2010, this article is heavily biased and not helpful for readers. Nothing has changed, so I'm adding a POV tag. The problem is this.

  • For most of history, "Venice" meant the famous city in the lagoon, build on several islands connected by bridges and canals.
  • While the historic Venice, the city in the lagoon, was one of the larger in Europe, the same area today is barely a small town, it's population well below 60.000 and continuning to decrease.
  • To give the impression that "Venice", is still a city of considerable size, mainland areas such as Mestre and Marghera have been merged with historic Venice to create the modern Venice with almost 300.000 people, but almost all of whom live on the mainland in Mestre and Marghera, not in the historic city of Venice.
  • This article deals almost exclusively with "Venice on the islands" and mainly uses Mestre and Marghera to bolster the population from a small provincial town to a relatively large Italian city. This is confusing for the reader.

To deal with this, there are several possible solutions, all of which would give a less tilted impression.

  1. We reduce this article about the modern commune of Venice to deal only with the modern commune, and then redirect people to Mestre, Marghera and Venice to deal with the three cities making up the modern commune.
  2. We rewrite the current article to give proper weight to Mestre, Marghera. In the history section, it makes sense to focus on the city on the islands, but all the other sections of the article should focus to 75% on the mainland, and most of the pictures should be from the mainland parts of Venice. This is not a tourist ad, we should not big the most beautiful pictures but the most representative.

My preferred option would be the first, as I think that the modern commune deserves an article, and just like there are separate articles already on Mestre, Marghera, even though they are part of the modern commune, there should be an article on the modern town on the islands (what most people think of as Venice) instead of this current mix that only confuses readers. Jeppiz (talk) 12:07, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

@Jeppiz: Centro Storico is referred to by the majority of English WP:Reliable sources as Venice, and per WP:Commonname this article should be exclusively about the historic city in the lagoon. The municipality Comune di Venezia would have a separate article of its own. Firebrace (talk) 18:21, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
The historic center of a city is almost always most representative of it.--2001:A61:20D6:BA01:5DFE:7093:86E4:B74 (talk) 11:57, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

JMW Turner[edit]

Why no mention of Turner's works? his Venice paintings are celebrated.

Commune/Municipality[edit]

Is there any reason for the usage of the word *commune* in the article? It seems to be used as a translation of the Italian word *comune* (with only one m!), but the correct translation for that is, to the best of my knowledge, *municipality*. If there are no objections in the next 24h I will change all instances of the word *commune* to *municipality* DenisNardin (talk) 23:14, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Geography[edit]

Under the geography section, I added information regarding characteristics of the parishes in the city. There is very minimal information about these parishes in Wikipedia, I added updates. “Each parish exhibited unique characteristics but also belonged to an integrated network. The community chose its own patron saint, staged its own festivals, congregated around its own market center, constructed its own bell towers and developed its own customs.” Awisbar (talk) 21:24, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Economy[edit]

Under Economy, I added the reason why shipbuilding is done mainly in Mestre and Marghera. “Since World War II many Venetians have moved to Mestre and Marghera seeking employment as well as affordable housing.” Awisbar (talk) 21:25, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Chapter 2.1 "Origins"[edit]

in paragraph 3 the etymology of "doge" is explained. in paragraph 4 it is explained all over again.--dunnhaupt (talk) 20:26, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

Demographics - why 2009???[edit]

The lead provides 2014 population data but the Demographic section is stuck in 2009, with one fact about 2016. How can that make sense??

Why has this never been updated?? Peter K Burian (talk) 13:16, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

The Tourism section was out of date too. There has been so much media coverage - in the major European newspapers - of the problems (2016 and 2017) caused by too many visitors (especially day trippers from cruise ships) that it's surprising how little this article included. I have updated it without including any comments from lobby groups in order to maintain a Neutral Point of View. Peter K Burian (talk) 13:47, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, Neutrality is in Doubt![edit]

This city has so many problems. And yet, much of the article ignores them or glosses over them. I have revised the Tourism section and will do some work on the Economy as well.

e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/02/when-will-venice-sink-google ... Venice’s financial situation is dire: the town hall has a shortfall of tens of millions of euros in its operating budget, and its debts exceed €400m. In effect, the place is bankrupt. ... the churches and palazzi should continue to stand for many more decades. Long before the water overwhelms Venice, however, it could die of tourism. As short-stay rentals push the cost of living in Venice higher with every passing year, the native population is being driven out. Venice is becoming a ghost-city, a high-culture holiday resort. It’s in that sense that it’s really sinking – and fast.

The Neutrality is fine now, remove POV label[edit]

I believe we can remove this label now. I moderated the hype about Venice and added info about their many challenges so it no longer reads like PR Hype.

The neutrality of this article is disputed. Relevant discussion may be found on the talk page. Please do not remove this message until conditions to do so are met. (March 2016) (Learn how and when to remove this template message) Peter K Burian (talk) 14:42, 29 June 2017 (UTC)