Talk:Venice

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Italy (Rated C-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Italy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles on Italy on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Cities (Rated C-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Cities, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of cities, towns and various other settlements on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Middle Ages (Rated C-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Middle Ages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject World Heritage Sites (Rated C-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject World Heritage Sites, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of World Heritage Sites on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
Checklist icon
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

Europe and North America?[edit]

Under the heading UNESCO World Heritage Site the region is Europe and North America, can someone explain to me why that would be the case. What has Venice got to do with North America? FFMG (talk) 11:43, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

They are both in the Western world. The article, World Heritage Site, gives a brief background to it. SilkTork *YES! 23:16, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Motto of Venice[edit]

I just came across this page -- it is excellent.

However, what I was looking for (an incription on a statute of a lion holding a book) was not included. I did find this on another web page and think that it would be useful to add to this web page.

Best wishes,

John Reindl October 31, 2009

The motto of Venice (Pax – Evan, Tibi – Geli, Mar – Sta, Ce – Meus) is the traditional shortened version of the Latin phrase “Pax tibi, Marce, Evangelista meus. Hic requiescet corpus tuum,” which translates to “Peace to you, Mark, my Evangelist. Here your body shall rest.” According to Venetian tradition, the blessing was spoken by an angel to Saint Mark during his visit to Venice and justified the Venetian theft of the Saint’s body from Alexandria. The image of the Lion with an inscribed book has appeared in countless locations throughout Venice over the past millennium and is the emblem and landmark of Venice.

Reference: http://95.110.194.207/CatalogoRenaissance/catalogo/renaissance/pdf/low/eng/LOT%2032.pdf, accessed October 31, 2009 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.135.73.110 (talk) 23:34, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

I think you're reading that wrong. The motto is just 'Pax tibi, Marce, Evangelista meus', the 'Pax - Evan ...' version you quoted probably results from reading to motto without recognizing that it's in multiple columns. blahaccountblah (talk) 22:05, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

18th Century naval activities:[edit]

The Venetian navy was both active and highly effective throughout the 18th century and the Arsenal of Veniice was the envy of ALL the naval powers of Europe. Venice was the only mercantile power in the Mediterranian which refused to pay off the North African pirates. Instead, VENICE USED FORCE until the North African pirates returned ships, crews, AND cargos. Venice also siezed moneys to pay for their expeditions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.92.4.183 (talk) 04:02, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Very unbalanced[edit]

The city of Venice, the subject of this article, consists of a few frazioni, including: Centro Storico, Mestre and Marghera. This article deals exclusively with one frazione, Centro Storico, and uses Mestre and Marghera only to inflate the number of inhabitants. I'm the first to admit that Centro Storico has the most interesting history by miles, not to mention the vast majority of sights. However, that's still not a reason to focus exclusively on Centro Storico. Given that the vast majority of inhabitants in the city live in other frazioni, there's no reason why the sections on transportation, on culture, on geography and on economy should focus exclusively on only this frazione. At times the article even contradicts itself, saying things such as "The city is divided into six areas or "sestiere", thereby implying that the city is only the Centro Storico. The article needs a complete rewrite, not just a few inserted sentences about other frazioni. Alternatively, we could have a separate article on the centro storico, just like we have articles on Mestre and Marghera. What we should not have is a confusing mix between the whole city and only the centro storico. Unfortunately, that confusing mix is precisely what this article is at the moment, taking a POV that treats Venice as nothing else than the centro storico.Jeppiz (talk) 10:08, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

"Acquisition of the relics of St. Mark the Evangelist"[edit]

"In 828, the new city's prestige was raised by the acquisition of the claimed relics of St. Mark the Evangelist from Alexandria, which were placed in the new basilica."

Could you please be more precise with the verb "acquisition": was it a purchase or a robbery or something else? These relics are very important to the city and tourists so I believe this information should be more specific. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.109.123.11 (talk) 14:44, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

About # 1.5 Modern age "After 1,070 years ..."[edit]

After 1,070 years, the Republic lost independence when Napoleon Bonaparte on 12 May 1797, conquered Venice during the First Coalition. ... (Under #1.5 Modern Age")

I have doubt on this "1070 years". I don't see anything mentioned in the article about the event happened 1070 years before 1797CE, which is 727 CE. The sentence neither seems suggesting after "the year 1070", or "the 1070s". I've checked the Italian Version which the similar paragraph says

Nel XVIII secolo Venezia fu tra le città più raffinate d'Europa, con una forte influenza sull'arte, l'architettura e la letteratura del tempo, ma questo non era che un segno del suo inesorabile tramonto. Dopo oltre 1000 anni d'indipendenza, il 12 maggio 1797 il doge Ludovico Manin e il Maggior Consiglio vennero costretti da Napoleone ad abdicare, per proclamare il "Governo Provvisorio della Municipalità di Venezia".

Although I do not understand Italian, Internet translator says

In the eighteenth century Venice was one of the finest cities in Europe, with a strong influence on art, architecture and literature of the time, but this was not a sign of his relentless sun. After more than 1000 years of independence, May 12, 1797, the Doge Ludovico Manin and the Great Council were forced Napoleon to abdicate, to proclaim the "Provisional Government of the Municipality of Venice."

It seems that the 1070 here should be corrected into "After 1100 years,", which suggests Venice gained independence in 697 CE.

Any responses?--Cnchina (talk) 09:38, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

I've checked through the revision history of Venice in both English version and Italian Version. Surprisingly this error has been passed on for such a long time since 27 October 2001 by User:Tsja with edition summary of "date surrender to Napoleon", while the Italian Version started to have the text 1070 only since 3 gen 2004 by Pietro "storia(history)".

Tsja's edition says

It was an independent city state for 1070 years until conquered by Napoleon Bonaparte on May 12, 1797.

it was an expansion from the previous version

It was an independent city state until conquered by Napoleon Bonaparte.

Apparently neither text came with reference, thus I would question this time duration of 1070 years strongly, and I change it into 1100 years. --Cnchina (talk) 10:38, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Tide and Life Section - Readibility, Style and Content[edit]

The following paragraph needs considerable work:

Tide and Life in Venice
Sometimes the Tide reachs levels which causes difficulties for the residents. With very high tide the sea water floods sidewalks and ground floor of buildings, and boats do not pass under the bridge (blocking of public transport, etc.) With very low tide, motorboats can not move (public transport, ambulance, firemen vehicles, taxi, etc.). For this, the Tide Forecast in Venice has an office that plays an important role, because the accuracy of prediction is very important. Today anyone can see the tide forecast in web site of Venice City Hall.
Numerous typographical, grammatical and readibility issues exist in this single section alone. I would rewrite it but the entire article seems to be under review, so I figured it better to leave it to those of you actively maintaining the page. 94.169.109.112 (talk) 18:08, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
I agree that the above section, as quoted here, is a mess of poor English.98.67.106.90 (talk) 03:55, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

The Doges[edit]

It's funny how this article equates doges with dukes, when the article on doges specifically says they are not the same. Since I don't know which is which, I won't change anything. Anyone ?204.44.0.4 (talk) 19:57, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Act of vandalism[edit]

I have spoted the following sentence ˝Connections with the Latin verb 'venire' (to come) or (Slo)venia are fanciful.˝ This (Slo) doesnt belong here so I think it`s vandalism so it should be removed. If anyone disaggres with me plese explain me what the hell does it mean. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.72.117.79 (talk) 20:03, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Venice in Veneto[edit]

According to Venice page in Veneto, it says Venice is Venesia in Veneto language. However, here in English page, it is written as Venexia, in French page, it's Veneszia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aquablue5 (talkcontribs) 17:08, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

German elink relevant?[edit]

I have no intention of edit warring about an elink I cannot read in an article that I don't edit other than by accident, but regarding this, I don't see how a non-English, German article is of relevance as an elink (not even a ref). Could somebody explain it, and in particular, how is it better than English links? I'd understand if we linked to some Italian websites here, but German...? If there was a good Chinese or Polish portal of Venice, we would include them here, too? They belong on German, Chinese, or Polish Wikipedias, not here. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 15:22, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I had Google translate the article and despite the rather literal aspect of the translation it is a very good source of information on Venice, particulary the history. Ideally it could be reworded and paraphased to a degree and actually inputted into the English article then used as the source. Until then I would not be too concerned about it remaining as an e-link. As an aside, from what I gather the author of the work is/was a Wikipedia editor. Saffron Blaze (talk) 18:49, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Wood for piles[edit]

In English Wikipedia (Venice):Wood for piles was cut in the most western part of today's Slovenia, resulting in the barren land in a region today called Kras, in two regions of Croatia, Lika and Gorski kotar (resulting in the barren slopes of Velebit) and south of Montenegro. What are the sources of this info?

In Russian Wikipedia (Венеция): Венеция построена на сваях из российской лиственницы (Venice is built on piles of Russian larch) (source: http://en.civilg8.ru/priority/energy/2054.php) . --Владимир Шеляпин (talk) 07:16, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

The mention of "barren land" in Kras as a result of building Venice is in conflict with the Wikipedia articla on Kras, which says: "Although much of the wood for the closely spaced piles that support the island city of Venice, Italy came from this region, Venice carefully managed the Karst forests as a reserve for naval timber. The most radical deforestation occurred in the mid-nineteenth century due to clear-cutting by local farmers and conversion of the land into pastures for sheep". So, which one is it? 85.218.29.220 (talk) 17:27, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

Wood does not turn to stone when underwater for long periods of time. the following extract describes what happens. In all wood, after long periods in wet soil, peat bogs, and marine sites, bacterial action causes a degradation of cell wall components. In general, water-soluble substances, such as starch and sugar, are the first to be leached from waterlogged wood, along with mineral salts, coloring agents, tanning matters, and other bonding materials. In time, through hydrolysis, cellulose in the cell walls disintegrates, leaving only a lignin network to support the wood. Even the lignin will break down over a long period of time. As a result of the disintegration of cellulose and lignin, spaces between the cells and molecules increase, and the wood becomes more porous and permeable to water. All of the deteriorated elements of the wood, including all cell cavities and intermolecular spaces, are filled with water. The remaining lignin structure of wood cells and the absorbed water preserves the shape of the wood. The loss of the finer cellulose tissue does not cause much alteration in the gross volume of wood, but the porosity is increased, and the wood absorbs water like a sponge. A waterlogged wooden object will retain its shape as long as it is kept wet. If the wood is exposed to air, the excess water evaporates, and the resulting surface tension forces of the evaporating water cause the weakened cell walls to collapse, creating considerable shrinkage and distortion.[1]

Under the section "Foundations" I am deleting the second sentence of this paragraph: "Submerged by water, in oxygen-poor conditions, wood does not decay as rapidly as on the surface. It is petrified as a result of the constant flow of mineral-rich water around and through it, so that it becomes a stonelike structure." It is not true. Petrification is a process of fossilization that takes many thousands of years.
As a side note, in Boston, Mass., which has a lot of similar construction, as a result of preventing sea water from repeatedly flowing into the old sewer tunnels for reasons of sanitation, thereby lowering the water table under the city, old wood piles have been exposed to oxygen and are rotting away, causing damage to the buildings above. Huw Powell (talk) 23:24, 3 February 2013 (UTC)
I agree about the wood. It takes hundreds of thousands of years for wood - or nearly anything else - to fossilize or petrify. The idea that there is petrified wood underneath Venice is ludicrous.98.67.106.90 (talk) 04:02, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Nickname[edit]

The Serenissima — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.148.130.241 (talk) 13:06, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Describing Venice[edit]

I have just intervened with the ridiculous understatement of the first sentence.

Venice is a city in northern Italy known for its tourism and its industry.

No. Most definitely not the right way to describe Venice.

  • "Venice is a city in northern Italy renowned for the beauty of its natural setting, its architecture and its artworks."

This is what Venice is known (renowned) for.

  • Now, I know that there are people out there in Wiki who know the MOS backwards and will jump up and down and say "You can't say it's beautiful,
I am not saying that it is beautiful. There is no value judgement involved in this. I am stating that it is renowned for its beauty ie. people think it is beautiful, believe it to be beautiful, perceive it as beautiful and visit because of that opinion.
It is the renown of this beauty that makes Venice famous, not tourism and industry. Tourism is the result, not a factor in itself. Tourism doesn't describe Venice, any more than it describes London or Bangkok or Las Vegas.
  • The Wikipedia Manual of Style cautions against the use of "Peacock words" such as "famous", "important", and "beautiful", "influential" and "unique". This is necessary, because otherwise every person who writes about a film star, a painting or a place would describe it as "beautiful", and everyone who writes about a notable person would describe them as "famous". And everyone who writes about anything at all out of the usual would describe it as "unique".
But this does not mean that the words cannot be used, with appropriate reference.
eg. "In Mythology, Helen of Troy was regarded as the most beautiful woman in the world."
"The Ceiling of the Sistine Chapel was the most influential work of art of the High Renaissance"
"The fame of the sculptor Phidias made him an almost legendary figure."
"La Sagrada Familia is unique among the world's churches for its architectural style"
In each one of these cases understanding the beauty, the fame, the uniqueness or the extraordinary degree of influence that the subject had, is essential to understanding the subject itself. If you don't say that Helen of Troy was the most beautiful woman on earth, then you don't fully understand the legend. If you don't know that Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel Ceiling changed the face of painting forever, then you don't understand its significance. If you are not told that Sagrada Familia is "unique", then you might not put it on your bucket list.
  • Here are some more "one offs" in the world, that need to be treated as such:
  1. The Taj Mahal
  2. Leonardo da Vinci
  3. St Peter's Basilica
  4. Mecca
  5. Elvis Presley
In the case of each of these subjects, there is nothing else that equals their unique quality, their position in the world, or the enormous fame that they have.
In each one of these cases, the amount of fame that they generate or the unique position that they hold in human consciousness goes far beyond that which is merely "notable enough for an article on Wikipedia".
Venice falls into this category.
Venice is not "just another city".
Venice is absolutely unique for the combination of things that it represents. It is unique in a way that London and Paris and Barcelona and New York and even Rome are not.
So the first line of that description must say far far more than "known for its tourism and industry". So is Wollongong. So is Blackpool. So is Manila.
  • The point is that the Wiki policy is meant to contain the use of such words as "beautiful" and "famous" for those occasions when it is actually appropriate to use them.
Writing about "Venice" is one of those occasions.

Amandajm (talk) 02:50, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

  • Comment I agree with the sentiment that Venice is known for more than just tourism even if it is becoming the world most expensive theme park, but I don't think I would have ever used the phrase "beautiful natural setting" to describe Venice. Venice is certainly extraordinary for the canal setting but it is hardly natural. I think your word unique is more appropriate, but somehow misses the mark in that it is the architecture in that particular setting that creates the mood that is uniquely Venice. Saffron Blaze (talk) 10:12, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
I agree. I removed the word "natural". The "setting" is part of Venice, natural or not. The light, the reflections the mist etc. Amandajm (talk) 10:19, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

After the great water balloon fight on 1453?[edit]

The following sentence, in the second paragraph really doesn't make sense. "After the great water balloon fight on 1453 also known as il aqua balonio vinice was completely drenched in water, thanks to the french ambassidor who took the water back with him to france the city was able to thrive with boat production and production of nice knives." Can someone clarify it's meaning or source? Nkatz22 (talk) 22:35, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

File:Venice Boats replace vans and cars 2008.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion[edit]

Image-x-generic.svg

An image used in this article, File:Venice Boats replace vans and cars 2008.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion for the following reason: All Wikipedia files with unknown copyright status

What should I do?

Don't panic; you should have time to contest the deletion (although please review deletion guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.

  • If the image is non-free then you may need to provide a fair use rationale
  • If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale, then it cannot be uploaded or used.
  • If the image has already been deleted you may want to try Deletion Review

This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 13:28, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

LANGUAGES[edit]

the section titled language gives a lot of confusion. venice , like milan , genova... is italophone and all the population speaks italian as native language. however , apart from italian, the majority of the population ( like in milan ) speaks venetian as its dialect. it is different from bolzano, where there are two distinct linguistic groups. i am from venice.

Services[edit]

I am curious how services like water, sewerage, electricity, fire fighting and ambulances are provided in Venice. All of these things that many take for granted must present a particular challenge in a city where many of the "streets" are waterways. I think it would make a useful addition to the article if someone has access to that information. Silverchemist (talk) 18:13, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Geminated t?[edit]

The article currently claims that Venezia is pronounced [veˈnɛttsja], but I do not hear the geminated t. Come to that, I also don't really agree with the j, and I'm not convinced the two e's are different. I admit I'm not a native speaker. Where does this pronunciation come from? --Trovatore (talk) 21:06, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Commune??[edit]

The word "commune" has a completely-different meaning in American and Canadian English - and probably in British English, too.
The word "commune" is grossly misused in this article.
We see problems like this often in articles that were written by Continental Europeans who do not have a good grasp on English. We see it also in words like "metropolis". In real English, a "metropolis" is a big urban area like London, Manchester, New York City, Los Angeles, Tokyo, Rio de Janiero, Sydney, and Bangkok. A metropolis is not a farming village somewhere. A farming village somewhere, or some similar place, might be a commune.98.67.106.90 (talk) 04:15, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Resources[edit]

There needs to be an section about resources.96.254.152.101 (talk) 14:29, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Jews lived under better conditions?[edit]

"Napoleon was seen as something of a liberator by the city's Jewish population, although it can be argued they had lived with fewer restrictions in Venice" Source? What arguments? Why? 108.29.193.124 (talk) 18:28, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Name(s) pronunciation[edit]

If I understand correctly, the article maintains that the form Venexia is pronunced [veˈnɛsja] with a voiceless sibilant.

Actually, while /veˈnɛsja/ is the current spoken form of the name, the written form Venexia contained the voiceD sibilant X (the same as Eng. xylophone and today's Ven. xe) and thus most probably corresponded to an older pronunciation /veˈnɛzja/. This is also confirmed by its old Italian rendering Vinegia (with voiced g), which is completely parallel to the venetian word xogàtolo/zogàtolo that has been rendered as Giocattolo in Italian. As a matter of fact, near the older written form Venexia, which some people are reviving today, also a newer written form Venesia exists (with It. orthography Venessia), which renders the moder voiceless sibilant. All in all: old written form Venexia corresponds to old voiced pronunciation /veˈnɛzja/; written form Venesia corresponds to the current spoken form [veˈnɛsja]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.95.207.85 (talk) 17:37, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

  1. ^ http://nautarch.tamu.edu/CRL/conservationmanual/File6.htm,