Talk:Vergina Sun/Archive 1

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Archive 1 Archive 2

CONSISTENCY, PLEASE!

Folks, we don't need the terms "Republic of Macedonia" and "FYRoM" used intermittently or interchangably in the same article. I don't have a side in this dispute. I think that FYROM, FYRoM, or whatever is very ambigious to most people without a specific interest in the disupute, which is the vast majority of readers of a general-interest encylopedia and should never be used without an antecedent somewhere in the article.

As I have no reason to back either side, I'm going to leave this as it is for the time being, but it needs to be fixed, one way or the other, soon, and if no one else does then I might.

Rlquall 14:53, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I agree - I've fixed it. -- ChrisO 18:10, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

How about we use the full name? Without resorting to cutting it in either way. Ergo, use the full "former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia" in every turn instead of "republic of Macedonia" or the, indeed ambiguous, FYROM? Sounds like a reasonable compromise to me. I will make it that way, please respond in this talk if you want to revert it to explain why. I will be checking it reasonably often the next few weeks. Thanks! Arathian (talk) 17:13, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Wiki isn´t propaganda platform!!!

See you http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/articles/?p=2

Flag of the Republic of Macedonia 1992-1995.svg

When independence was obtained in 1992, the flag of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia was retained until it was replaced with the flag with the so-called sun of Vergina.

The Vergina Sun was found on a gold larnax in the main burial chamber of Philip, located at Vergina, Imathia, Greece. The larnax (gold casket) which Andronikos identified as containing the remains of Philip II has a symbol of a sun or star on its lid, and this Vergina Sun has been adopted as a symbol of Greek Macedonia.[[1]]

Flag of Macedonia.svg


The Vergina Tombs - (The Hellenic Ministry of Culture) Museum in Greece [[2]]

The Present Flag adopted was adopted in 5 October 1995 and has been in use until now.


Meaning of the Flags - A Political Glimpse

The evolution of the FYROM flags stems from polical movements in the region. This is based chiefly on events that occurred in the 1940’s. As is evident, the idea of a “Macedonia” to these Slavic people came quite late, and most of us were alive when this occurred. This is quite obviously not the same people that fought with Alexander the Great. Those people lie South, in Macedonia Greece.

How the Idea Began: STALIN TO BULGARIAN DELEGATION (G. Dimitrov, V. Kolarov, T. Kostov) The Kremlin, 7 June 1946 Cultural autonomy must be granted to Pirin Macedonia within the framework of Bulgaria. Tito has shown himself more flexible than you - possibly because he lives in a multiethnic state and has had to give equal rights to the various peoples. Autonomy will be the first step towards the unification of Macedonia, but in view of the present situation there should be no hurry on this matter. Otherwise, in the eyes of the Macedonian people the whole mission of achieving Macedonian autonomy will remain with Tito and you will get the criticism. You seem to be afraid of Kimon Georgiev, you have involved yourselves too much with him and do not want to give autonomy to Pirin Macedonia. That a Macedonian consciousness has not yet developed among the population is of no account. No such consciousness existed in Belarus either when we proclaimed it a Soviet Republic. However, later it was shown that Belarusian people did in fact exist. …

Thank you! --Asteraki 17:32, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi Asteraki :-) The reason for which I've reverted your edits is very simple: rightly or wrongly, wikipedians have opted for RoM over FYROM, and so we have Republic of Macedonia, Macedonians (ethnic group), List of Macedonians, and not Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, etc. I can add that I do not disapprove this; personally, I wouldn't have problems if Switzerland decided to change its name in Tuscany (even if I would find it a bit queer ;-)) Aldux 18:19, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand why you've deleted the modern RoM flag - you've provided no explanation. The article discusses the change in flags, so it seems sensible to have a "before and after" comparison to illustrate the point. -- ChrisO 20:02, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
Didn't you know? Wikipedia is a propaganda platform. It's a massive game where players try to insert disinformation while eliminating the disinformation of players with opposing viewpoints. Farkas János (talk) 02:40, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Name issue again

It is bad enough that these edit wars exist; basic rules of civility dictate that you don't try to impose your view on articles that are about Greek topics. Doing so just invites others to do the same in articles that are purely about FYROMian topics such as cities, people, etc. This is an article about a Greek subject; in Greece "Macedonia" means a very specific thing, totally unrelated to FYROM. Respect that if you wish others to respect your subjects. This will go a long way towards promoting some calm between us here and in general. Walking into other people's home and staking claims only promotes hatred and perpetuates the problem. Sysin 14:09, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Sysin, neither I nor ChrisO are from the Balkans, and neither have any axe to grind regarding the article. If Greeks want to contribute to articles concerning the RoM, they are more than welcome; but Greeks cannot expect to have a special right for Greek subjects. As for FYROM, I repeat what I've already said on this same talk: RoM has been preferred to FYROM for the standard article, and so the other articles must also prefer RoM over FYROM. And please don't revert again, or you will violate the 3 reverts rule. Aldux 15:06, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Naming Policy

Naming conflict policy clearly states that "If the term "Cabindan" (i.e. RoM) is used in an article, the controversy should be mentioned and if necessary explained, with both sides' case being summarised". Sysin 19:04, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Is this edit war really needed? Apart from the fact that using the RoM name is humiliating to Greeks and that FYROM is found perfectly acceptable by the UN and EU, is there some special reason for insisting on using RoM? I'm just curious why using RoM is so important and using FYROM is so unacceptable. My point is that the other side (the Greek side) in this contrversy should be clearly menitoned (the footnotes). I see no reason for the RoM POV to be enforced (there's no way around this - the naming conflict guidelines) without appropriate links to the naming conflict. --Latinus (talk (el:)) 23:26, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
The reason for insisting on using RoM on articles about Greece is to provoke and annoy people. I don't see Greeks going to articles about cities people and objects in FYROM and forcing their view. The civilized thing to do is leave the other side's articles alone. Since some people won't act civilly, we should at least respect the rules and the rules are clear: If the term X is used in an article, the controversy should be mentioned and if necessary explained, with both sides' case being summarised (exact quote). There is nothing in the rules to justify the deletion of the footnote from the article. Sysin 07:39, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Sysin, believe me, neither I, nor ChrisO, nor Jonathunder, have any interest in annoying people. And as I said before, nobody of us is Greek-Macedonian-Bulgarian-Albanian-Turkish-Serbian: I'm Italian, Jonathunder is American, and ChrisO is British or American, I think. The point is that Greeks have no right to possess ANY article regarding Greece more than have Japanese. The same is obviously true for Roman and Italian articles; my being does not give me and my fellow countrymen a special right on those articles. The same is obviously true for RoM related articles: if Greek editors want to seriously help editing RoM articles, they're welcome, especially considering that many Macedonian nationalists are repeatedly trying to impose their views. As for the RoM/FYROM question, the point is that in wikipedia the choice for the main article has been Republic of Macedonia and not Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia; and it's a wikipedia rule that direct links are preferred to redirects. I think we should search consistency for the whole wikipedia, and not for national sections of it; or else, what's the sense of building an international encyclopedia? As for putting a note, I have nothing against this: but I would prefer that the explanation could be built so to go to one page, that concerning the Republic of Macedonia. I think somebody had already done this (the mark on all pages sent to the single endnote of RoM) but it appears Macedonian nationalists have removed it sometime. Aldux 12:31, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I co-wrote Wikipedia:Naming_conflict, and I wrote the disclaimer that you added to the article. The naming policy simply does not require the kind of tagging every mention of the RoM name that you're engaging in. You are clearly doing this for POV reasons, and your claim that the use of the name RoM is just "to annoy people" is bollocks. The naming conflict policy explains very clearly why the name is used. I find it odd that you're reading into the policy something that isn't there, while ignoring what is there. -- ChrisO 23:17, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Sigh - Sysin, just leave it, ασ' το. The flip side of what you're doing it that it seems like you're trying to make a point by tagging every mention of the RoM name. As long as the explanation of the policy is there, in its own section, it is extremely unlikely that a reader would not notice it. --Latinus (talk (el:)) 12:37, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, he's just playing silly POV games. -- ChrisO 23:17, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
ChrisO, shame on you. Since the policy proves you wrong (and you know it), you tried to edit the policy without any prior discussion or consensus. If you are determined to simply disregard the rules, simply say so and don't pretend otherwise. The rules as the are make no exceptions of the kind that you claim, and you know it. Sysin 19:15, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
The naming policy absolutely does not prove me wrong. I should know; I wrote it! Your interpretation of it is simply not correct, and the line that I added is a clarification of an existing guideline, not something new. As I've said on the policy's talk page, your interpretation would lead to ridiculous results, like having to discuss the China-Taiwan issue on every single page that mentioned the Republic of China (i.e. Taiwan) even in passing. -- ChrisO 19:28, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
You re-wrote it after the fact. Very few people would resort to doing something that low. And this is not "even in passing", this article is very relevant to the dispute. Sysin


Chris, by any objective reading of the policy, the footnote is presently permitted. You have proposed a change in the policy; fair enough. Please let's carry on a civilized discussion in the appropriate forum (there) instead of a silly rv war here. Sysin 23:22, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

trademarks and inaccuracies

The 16-ray sun is a trademark of Intersalonica since 1978 (or 1979). The Bank of Macedonia-Thrace had the 12-ray sun during the 1980s and not after 1992 as the article implies. talk to +MATIA 13:15, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

New flag not derivative of Vergina

I deleted the official flag of ROM/FYROM from this articel because when it was introduced in 1992 there was no indication from the parliament in Skopje or from the government that this was an adaptation of Vergina. There have never such been official claims from the government (to my knowledge). Therefore to make such claims are POV. I hope you take my point and agree to keep my edit. Thank you in advance for your generous cooperation, your concern for editoria accuracy and for your understanding. I am sure all our friends agree with this, if not, they will provide official evidence to the contrary. With all due respect and for the sake of accuracy please allow me to re-delete that particular flag.

  • There is also incomplete information regarding the first flag, it is not just the 'pre-1995 flag' but 'the official flag between 1992-1995'; that also needs correctinig. Politis 16:50, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
We've already passed through this, and I will simply repeat you the exact words that another editor, ChrisO, said a few months ago: "The article discusses the change in flags, so it seems sensible to have a "before and after" comparison to illustrate the point." --Aldux 16:59, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Chronology and official status of the blue flag

I have removed the sentence "Flags displaying the Vergina Sun in this fashion have been used since the 1980s", and I would prefer to revert the chronological representation of this whole chapter, as the blue flag came up only after the Slavic Macedonians adopted their flag, cf. Dorothea Schell, "Der Stern von Vergina als nationales Symbol in Griechenland" (in: Symbole: Zur Bedeutung der Zeichen in der Kultur, ed. by R. W. Brednich and H. Schmitt, Münster et al. 1997, pp. 298-307), p. 301:

"Bis zum Beginn der 1990er Jahre fand der Stern als historisches Emblem der altmakedonischen Dynastie vor allem unter Fachleuten Beachtung. Nach dem Parlamentsbeschluß der ehemaligen jugoslawischen Republik Makedonien im August 1992, eben diesen Stern auf rotem Grund als Staatsflagge einzuführen, ist er auch in Griechenland zum nationalen Symbol avanciert. Das Athener Parlament erklärte ihn – allerdings auf blauem Grund – im Februar 1993 zum Symbol der griechischen Republik."
"Until the beginning of the 1990s the star [i.e. the Vergina Sun, D. B.] as a historical emblem of the Old Macedonian dynasty was noted predominantly by specialists. After the decision of the parliament of the former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia in August 1992 to introduce just this star on a red field as the state flag it became a national symbol in Greece as well. In February 1993 the Athens parliament declared it – though in a blue field – to be a symbol of the Greek republic." (Translation and bold type mine.)

I have also replaced "state emblem" by "unofficial emblem", because on none of the official websites of the Macedonian peripheries (Central Macedonia, Western Macedonia and Eastern Macedonia and Thrace) can I find this emblem or an official flag regulation. Feel free to add such references if you know that the blue flag is the official emblem of any administrative unit anywhere in Greece.

See also the discussion at the German Wikipedia.

--Daniel Bunčić (German Wikipedia · talk) 12:34, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Here are more sources on the blue flag. Some quotes can be added in the article in regard to the status, date and origin. (Toci (talk) 20:27, 28 June 2008 (UTC))

The "Sun" has been also found in Ohrid in 2002 and other stuff

Let me point out the fact that this symbol (the 16-rayed sun) was also found in Ohrid, Republic of Macedonia or FYROM if you insist in 2002. Personally I own two museum certificated copies of:

1. one ceramic cup decorated with a relief of the sixteen-rayed sun on it
2. one hmm how should I call it, medallion perhaps? (the certificate says "application") with the 8th rayed sun inside. The material is stated as gold. forging.

I have uploaded the images of the cup and that thing on my photobucket account, the certificates in english are photographed too so you can read them. I think that pics of these artefacts should be added to the article too.

The link to my photobucket album is: http://s111.photobucket.com/albums/n138/vbb_wiki/sun/ it includes pics of (click on the links):

the ceramic cup,

the ceramic again

that application

the application closeup (a bit blurry)

and the stamp on the certificate incl. email adress of the institution.

Also one unusual thing. How come that sun appears on the printed pamphlets of VMRO from the 1890s? check the corners of the papers and u can see the "suns" in the following image: CLICK HERE

Some form of а sun also appears on the flag of the Macedonian colony in St. Petersburg from 1914 together with a somewhat mythological depiction of Alexander's horse Bucefalus, check the pic HERE. The text says: United and Independent Macedonia. This flag can also be seen in the Museum of Macedonia in Skopje and it is presented on the website of the State Archives.

Also, one related trivia. Few years ago one historian from Republic of Macedonia claimed on a TV interview that the creators of the Coat of arms of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia (check the pic here) knew about the 16 ray sun back then after the WWII so that's why they've placed an 16-ray sun on it. His explanation was something like this: on the coat of arms itself you can only see the 8 sun rays shining from the top of the mountain (count them), but the remaining 8 are logically behind that mountain (as they are in a circle around the sun). Ok, this was nothing academic and it is not a veryfible source but anyway.

And one more thing. I just personally wonder why is this symbol called "the star of Vergina"? First of all Vergina itself is just an ordinary village, not ancient at all, while the archeological site is The Royal tombs of Aegae right? Then it is said that the symbol is discovered for the first time in 1977, I gave u some examples that it may have appeared much earlier. Also I think I remember seeing it (in some form maybe 8th rayed, dont remember exactly) in the movie Alexander the Great starring Richard Burton from the 1950s (on the shields of the fighters). Check the movie if u can.

I think that SOME of this stuff that I presented should be taken into account (of course those supported by reliable sources)

--Vbb-sk-mk 12:29, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

and some info on the institution that excavated those artefacts:
Institute for Protection of Cultural Monuments and the National Museum
"Boro Sain" 10, Ohrid
Tel.: + 389 46 262 498
The framework of this institution incorporates several departments: archaeology, history, ethnology, Slav architecture, history of art, and contemporary arts. It also has its own library, and a photo-preparatory laboratory. The essential part of its activities is the depot which give a shelter to approximately 800 icons dating from the period between XII and XIX century. The most representative ones were relocated in the Galley of Icons. The Institute current activities involve reconstruction and restoration of Samuel's Fortress, The Classical Theatre and St. Clement's Church of St. Pantaleimon at Plaosnik and earlier complete reconstruction of the Robevs House. Today the house contains an archaeological display, exhibition of articles from the Robevs household, artwork of the Ohrid Woodcarving School and archeological excavations of Ohrid and its vicinity.
zimohrid@mt.net.mk
Contact: Pasko Kuzman
--Vbb-sk-mk 13:19, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

What are you trying to say, dear Vbb-sk-mk, by showing those items with 'stars'? That the Greeks were in Ohrid over 2,000 year ago? That is a well known fact. Historically speaking, the impact of the 1977 discovery is that, it was assossiated with Philip of Macedon, father of Alexander the Great. The Greeks were delighted to find such a relic of one of their greatest ruling dinasties, and the world briefly held its breath. By 1984 it was already used by Greeks as a symbol of the historical province of Macedonia (Μακεδονία). When the 'Vergina star' was briefly adopted in 1992, by the new, ex-Yugoslav republic, the decision had very little to do with the desires of Skopje, but just about everything to do with the lobbying of Australilan Slav Macedonians from Greece. President Gligorov, an experienced politician, saw it as a useful bargaining chip with Athens regarding the name issue. Perhaps you are influenced by the trend to re-invent history, to justify something with those pictures. But fortunately, the reality of the Vergina symbol and its usage, exists, and that historical reality belongs to all of us when we may need a reality-check. Politis 13:20, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Politis, be POLITE. Why such an angry reaction? Why these facts are so irritatting for you?
Who really ever mentioned Gligorov, the diaspora in Australia, the re-inventing of the history, the polar bears, the meaning of life? And frankly, your reply sounds like a populist political speech, and I must admit my favourite line is "and the world held its breath". And yes, you are not AT ALL BIASED in this case, right?
Now lets be serious: As everyone can see in the article, there ARE already other examples of same or similar "stars/suns" to that in Vergina, for example that one in Olympia or Kratovo right? Can you tell me please, why should I not be allowed to place my stuff in the article? I presented everything properly and in a civilized manner, with pics, info and even some trivia. Or I'm an Untermensch perhaps?
I want the readers to see these things, that was my main intention, not to bomb Athens of course. Why should these facts be hidden from the readers?
As you can see I didn't spread any nationalist propagandha like "we are the grandsons of Alexander" and all that. I just said what I said, people can read for themselves, they don't need your interventions. A fact is that the SUN can be found in so many places and it has been brought to the light of the day LONG before the exchavations in Vergina in 1977 by Andronikos. Now, it may sound trivial, but do check Richard Burton's movie too, why not? (don't worry it's not a "Skopyan" movie, its a Holywood classic). Seems that Vergina is perhaps just one place in a milion where that "sun" can be found. And who knows maybe its an universal ancient symbol for many countries? I mean check the article, there are several opinions on it's origin and meanings right? Some even say it's just a decoration, nothing to shout about. And some of the other exchavated "suns" may be even older than the one in Vergina. As I said it has been found in Ohrid and thats the fact which i think should be added there, it's for the readers and I dont care whether it was made by Greeks or Swedish or Tuvaluans or Martians. At least for that ceramic cup you must admitt, it's the same star as the one in Vergina, not just similar, its 100% SAME. Ohrid is not in central Antarctica but just a few kilometers from the greek border you can check everything yourself. And the food is inexpensive, unlike in Greece.

Regardless whether today's population in RoM/FYROM is related or not related to the Ancient Macedonians, let's put those well known disputes aside, the "star" has been found here too (in Ohrid by Pasko Kuzman) and also according to Wikipedia, in Kratovo too and maybe in many other places. Lets say for a moment that the population here is like you say- Slavic and completely unrelated to Ancient Macedonians. So what?
Todays' Egypt is predominatly Arabic, but that doesn't stop them from "selling Ancient Egypt" to the tourists right? What Arabs have incommon with the Pharao's? They don't care. Modern Mexico is spanish speaking and mostly catholic but that doesn't stop them from cashing in on the Aztech culture. Also Turkey is very rich with ancient Greek culture, then Italy with their Etruscian art and all. Anyway, these countries proudly celebrate the ancient culture found on their territories and they're doing it worldwide,they organize exhibitions, write books, make movies and what not. I see no reason why we are not allowed to use something that has been found here in a same way these other nations do. I dont say we should claim it as an "ethnic" symbol, cause that would cause disputes and all, but..dunno, to use it as something, in some way.

But there's one more thing that may be interesting. the albanian municipality of Liqenas or Pustec mostly inhabited by people who declare as Ethnic Macedonians and where the macedonian language came into officiall use, adopted the 16-ray sun as an official municipal flag and coat of arms.
CLICK HERE TO SEE IT --Vbb-sk-mk 16:23, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Of course 'Arab' Egyptians can sell Ancient Egypt in their brochures because they live across the same territories of Ancient Egypt. But for the tourist board in Skopje to sell Alexander the Great, etc, can seem like irredentism because those Alexandrine territories are in Greece (it could also be seen as free advertising for Greece). The point remains that it was the Vergina Star - and nothing else - that triggered the flag frenzy in Skopje. That is a fact and part of FYROM/ROM's history. What you present is intersting but it gains its importance with hindsight; you choose it because of Vergina. This article is about the Vergina Star; what you present are not 'the' VS. But please continue your research in that field, it enriches our knowledge of Greek history and its impact in the region, before the Slavic invasions and the impact of a Bulgarian civilisation in the central Balkans. Personally, I also find the history of FYROM/ROM very interesting and perhaps one day I may interst you in it, also ;-) Politis 17:13, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your statements. Really, thank you. Efharisto parapoli (without any cynicism!). At least, now people from around the world can finally see that wikipedia articles related to Macedonia are offten arogantly abused as personal PRIVATE WEBPAGES by a bunch of greek and/or bulgarian and/or albanian nationalists (mostly right-wing yuppie students who rarely have visited their motherlands). Almost any suggestion from Skopje is always being refused by default even if it's supported by somewhat reliable sources. They are refused "automatically" without any further exploration, and this is not a first time (eh long stories, I've experienced this already). A 12-rayed star found in some village in the middle of nowhere near Olympias is allright, OK, but a 16-ray sun found in Ohrid is not okay enough TO BE PRESENTED IN THE ARTICLE? What kind of justice is that? Double standards, well Orwell himself would congratulate you for this (shame he's dead). And look who's talking about RE-INVENTING THE HISTORY. You don't Re-invent it, but you INVENT IT. Let's say a third party observer (an ordinary internet surfer from the USA or Uk or Burma or whatever) comes to Wikipedia and he/she can read only what you and your mates are serving to them. Pure brainwashing. I would be ashamed for that really (if you have any sence of shame, which I doubt)
And let me remind you of one thing by the way, the refugees from Asia Minor, Pontus and Caucasus who were setled in Greek Macedonia in the mid 1920s after the Turkish-Greek war were also NEWCOMERS on the Ancient Macedonian soil. They were not an authentic population there, but still it's obvious for every normal human being on this stupid Planet that they are the loudest to defend the exclusive Greek right to use the "sun" symbol. While at the same time, a paradox, someone living in Ohrid for centuries (regardless of his/her ethnic backround) is not allowed to use it in any possible way. At least as a symbol of the "land" or a region or a municipality flag or something (not as an ethnic symbol, I never said that, cause it's disputable and Im not sure about it!). I explained you everything in a simple way (for dummies) without any nationalistic sentiments like "Alexander is ours bla-bla-bla, you greeks are dumb bla-bla" and all those well known rhetorics. Still you don't want to face the facts. After all Politis, who cares if the "sun" is made by Greeks or Martians as I said already, you really think that this whole planet is sleepless because of that? They "hold they breaths" and suffer every day because of Greece and the village of Vergina with one school, one restaurant and one newspaper kiosk (ok and one souvenir open-air shop) and many tractors wandering around? You are not ETHNO-CENTRIC aren't you, right? Noo, we are not BIASED here ;-) The fact is (again): the "sun" has been found here too like the pyramids and sphinks have been found in the modern arabic state of Egypt, like the Etruscian stuff has been found in modern Italy, like the Aborigional culture has been explored in Australia or whatever (milions of examples). Also you didn't explain me how this same "star" (or at least a SIMILAR star) has been found in Kratovo, a place so far away from Greece and not within the boundaries of Ancient Macedonia (I mean the historical boundaries according to the official historiography of Greece). It's a "Skopyan conspiracy" perhaps? (ah and how can we make any conspiracies when a huge amount of our economy has been already bought by Greece?! Ah Gligorov that cunning vixen)--Vbb-sk-mk 03:30, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I hope you are not underestimating former President Glogorov and his tactics to keep his state afloat during the violent break up of Yugoslavia. But my point remains. The representation of the stars you showed are small, decorative and incidental designs amongst hundreds of other designs. No one would have paid attention to them if it were not for the Vergian Star. If you are showing those other stars for stylistic purposes, to illustrate how they have been used, that is quite normal. But I have the impression that the statement being made is: the star was also discovered in 2002 in the region of Ohrid, therefore it can become a national symbol and flag.
  • As for the VMRO pamphlet, I see no VS symbol, but I do see the Bulgarian flag (top right hand corner); as for the decorative border, it is Greek.
  • Regarding the St. Petersburg flag, I see no Bucephalus or VS, but I do see a horse with a horn on its head: its name is Pegasus (Bucephalus was a real horse).
  • Also, the symbol of the sun is quite common since it was worshiped, and it can only be represented as a circle with rays. However, the VS is quite specific; going by the other samples I have seen here, then the VS should become the symbol of the entire world. By the way, aesthetically, the 16 ray VS is remarquably ugly, it is all spiky, more like an urchin than a sun - I am not surprised that no serious used it after Philip. Politis 14:26, 30 September 2006 (UTC)



I had to place a horizontal line cause it put things in order otherwise its hard to read everything.
No, Im not underestimating Gligorov at all, its just he is not the subject of my discussion here, its you that brought him in this party (just btw he is somehow important to Greece too as he granted asylum to Grilakis from the Greek inteligence service back in the early 1990s).
Doesnt matter, lets go on:

  • personally I still claim that this symbol (the exact "star/sun", not some similar one) was known far before 1977, unfortunately I CAN'T PROVE THAT at this particluar moment with serious academic sources according to wikipedia rules, instead I can only post pics found somewhere, so it remains just an interesting non-academic trivia at least somehow RELATED to the subject for now. I said for NOW. If i find aything related later i will gladly post it here. So, for now you can discard the VMRO pamphlet as it is not supported by any source, tho Im personally not blind and I can see it is actually "the thing", no matter of your personal judgement. no insult to you, but your personal opinion is that's not "the vergina star", I dont have to take it as an academic opinion (as you are not obliged to take all my opinions in the same way). yes it is the bulgarian flag, the ppl called themselves Bulgarians, Greeks, Martians and what not (depending on many factors, incl. among others: who payed more or whose gun was pointed into their heads) until Krste Misirkov spoke out for a first time about "Macedonian nation" in 1903 in his book "On the Macedonian matters".

Anyway consider it as a trivia for now.
btw an entrance gate of an old private house with those "suns" exists in Prilep too, but again this is not an academic info I just have seen a photo.

  • And that HORSE is not Pegasus but an Unicorn (cause the pegasuses have wings and they fly :) while unicorns logically -have a horn, single one to be exact:)), that horse on the flag was indeed meant to be a sort of mythical, artistic or whatver depiction of Bucephalus. Its not just my imagination or nationalistic blindness. Buchephalus means an ox head. Ox is basically a cow (ok a male cow whatever). I tried to search for some connection between Buchephalus and Unicorns and I found something which I cannot claim as a serious reliable source. But anyway it gives some "hint", it encourages further exploration of this subject (Buchephalus and the mythical Unicorns). Here is some website check it if u r interested:

Legends about Unicorns incl. Alexander the Great
About Alexander and The Unicorn
on the use of Unicorn horn in the medicine in the myths and beleifs, Alexander is mentioned too
about Alexander and there's a UNICORN too
Again ALEXANDER and UNICORNS and other stuff
AGAIN about Unicorns and Alexander again is mentioned
and again
and again
Academic or just charlatanism, these legends seem to be quite spreaded around!
From all this I give myself a freedom to draw a conclusion that there is something suspicious related between the REAL actual horse Bucephalus and the mythical UNICORNS. also I found somewhere that it was possible that the REAL Bucephalus use to wear "battle horns" (artificial ones made of metal or whatever in the battles).
Again, this is STILL nothing academic, but if we have placed the VMRO pamphlet in the "black zone", the story about St. Petersburg flag deserves a lil bit more attention as it may be true, so I would put it in some "gray zone" for now.

  • The only acceptable facts from everything I have presented is the disovery of the Ohrid sun (as I said: I think that SOME of these facts should be added to the article). The Ohrid story is definetly good enough to be mentuioned in the article in couple of sentences incl. a small thumbnail or two. Like: In 2002 during the archeological excavations in Ohrid few archeological artefacts with the 16 ray sun have been discovered bla-bla-bla. This will not be anything nationalistic, or irredentist or bla-bla, it would be just stating facts for the readers. I mean wikipedia exists for them in the first place? --Vbb-sk-mk 02:49, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I see no reason not to have a mention of the sort " The same symbol was found on artifacts uncovered in a dig in Ohrid in ... "etc.After all, this is irrelevant to the current political dispute.Ohrid was within the boundaries of the kingdom of Macedon. --Jsone 20:50, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

It's because there is no evidence that it is the same symbol. That is Vbb's opinion; we have no expert sources saying it's the same symbol, so saying so is WP:OR.--Tekleni 20:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

The only symbol which seems important to this discussion is the one on the cup.It seems to be very similar to the Vergina Sun, but I agree, it would be WP:OR to equate them.

The one on the "Application" is too amorphous to tell.

The one on the VMRO pamphlet could very well be the "points of the horizon" symbol (similar to a compass).Some of the ray's edges in that one seem to have some sort of "point" on their edges.

The "St. Petersburg" flag ( a quarter sun and a unicorn) could be representing just about anything, since both are very common symbols in vexillology, as is the rising sun of the old Yugoslavian coat of arms in socialist iconography.--Jsone 21:33, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

"Macedonian" municipality

Is there any independent evidence of a "Macedonian" municipality in Albania which uses that logo? A nationalist newspaper is not enough. //Dirak 19:05, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The photos in the newspaper are enough proof whether you agree with the newspaper or not Macedonia 17:20, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
My question is, should we include all organisations that use the Vergina sun? Perhaps the one's already there are enough (ergo, the Albanian municipality is best kept out). But I do not take position on the subject. Politis 21:03, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Remember that a municipality is not an "organization", it is a government institution Macedonia 17:23, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

There are no WP:RS sources. The Albanian government finds only about 4,500 "Macedonians" in the country; how come there are "Macedonian inhabited areas" and a whole municipality? Until there is an independent source confirming the claim, then it should not be included. According to Greek newpapers Bitola/Monastirion has a Greek majority; maybe we should rewrite all wikipedia articles accordingly. //Dirak 13:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Ugly symbol should be buried

On a personal note, I would like to state how ugly that symbol is (all prickly and complicated). No wonder it was never used after Vergina but left buried; the ancients had taste and they recognised a mistake when they saw one! Politis 11:05, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

The ROM flag?

Not that I have a problem with keeping it (give one a chance to gloat over how it's no longer their flag), but how exactly is it relevant? I am also concerned that the resulting effect the current wording has of implying that the current "stylized sun" is somehow related or a variety of the Vergina Sun. It's WP:OR. Thulium 20:17, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Not so - the current flag is discussed in the second-to-last paragraph of the article. You'll notice that it's reliably sourced and therefore isn't OR. -- ChrisO 20:30, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

please use the talk page more. thanks

I've restored the note "Parts of this article are based on Research by editors of the Greek Wikipedia." as needed by the GFDL (if I remember correctly ChrisO is aware of the details of that research too - WIPO etc). talk to ATIA 12:55, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I've reinserted and rewritted some stuff by wroten before by sysin. I must emphasize that I have not seen anyone (from what I've read) to suggest that the symbol was used in the wider Greek area before Alexander the Great, while it was indeed used in the kingdoms of the Diadochi. talk to ATIA 13:17, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

About symbols

I would like to stretch a couple of points concerning Vergina Sun. First of all I think that the way discussions are held are the result of the abuse of the symbol from both the greeks and the ethnic macedonians (slavic). All over the world there are symbols used as representation of solar, lunar, or any other natural phenomenon who was deified and workshipped by mankind due to the fact that there was no science to give an explanation concerning those phenomena. Solar cults have always been the most extensive system of worship, partucularly among the very developed philosophically societies those of Inkas, Aztecs,Mayas and of course Babylonians , Egyptians, and Greeks. The sun has been globally concidered to be an ultimum symbol of power and glory. The solar crown ,depicted in art as a ray diadem, was always concidered to be the diadem of the ancient gods. A current proof of this is the crown that the Statue of Liberty bears. This crown is a seven ray diadem worn by the personification of Liberty the cardinal virtue of the American republic. Louis IV bear the nick name Le Roi Soleil thus the Sun King. When the imperial cult was introduced in ancient Rome the Emperors start bearing the title INVICTUS, which was taken by the title of the Sun as Invictus Sol. Nonetheless different sun designs are found everywhere even among more barbarian ancient tribes like the thracians, Skythians, etc. The Vergina Sun is simply another solar symbol, abused and misused by two nations in their attempt to establish and/or legitimate their claims. The ethnic macedonians (Slavs) present it as a symbol of their nation and the unity and continuity of their history from antiquity till today. The Greeks are using it as a symbol of the ancient kingdom of macedon and of the ancient macedonians which they consider to be a greek tribe and part of greek history and heritage. So we find today Vergina Sun to be used in all sort of things. From a commercial trademark, to nationalist movements of both sides. Nonetheless with this misuse the authentical meaning of the Vergina Sun is simply long lost and forgotten. This Symbol was found curved on the so believed to be the golden royal larnax of Philip of Macedon. It was laid with reverence upon his resting place not because it was a national symbol but because it had another significance of which we cannot be sure. It might have been placed as a symbol of royalty demonstrating the royal status of the remainings in the larnax , it might be placed as a religious item in the same way that we use today the cross or the star of david or the crescent, it might be the symbol of the royal dynasty of argeaeds as is already suggested. Nonetheless we cannot be sure. If we really want to have a scientific approach we have to realise that the sun and its representations are archetype widely used by all mankind. Thery are not symbols of ancient nations but symbols of the relation between religious cults or persons of significance with the most important ancient deity: The SunItaliotis 16:39, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Makedonsko Sonce's claims

The only source for the Albanian municipality is a nationalist magazine. NO ONE else seems to have heard of it (go through google).--PBD55 22:28, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

ChrisO has kindly pointed to Wikipedia:Reliable sources. How exactly does Makedonsko Sonce qualify? Big claims are made, that an Albanian municipality is "predominantly ethnic Macedonian" requires reliable sources, not a magazine with an obvious conflict of interest. As for the emblem which no one else has heard of, considering that it is copyrighted, I think some impartial sources are needed.--PBD55 22:34, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

According to the reliable sources policy

Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.

Makedonsko Sonce qualifies??? Also Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Exceptional_claims_require_exceptional_sources and Wikipedia:Reliable_sources#Self-published_sources ChrisO are you serious?--PBD55 22:36, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I'm very serious - as a new user you obviously don't understand the way reliable sourcing works. MS is a print publication with editorial oversight (see [3]). This meets the standards set out in Wikipedia:Verifiability. The statement that Liqenas/Pustec is a centre of Macedonian population is supported by Hugh Poulton in Who Are the Macedonians?, p. 149, in which he refers to the Macedonian prime minister travelling there in June 1991 to meet local Macedonian community and political leaders. There's no good reason to dispute the source, and your personal disbelief in it certainly doesn't qualify. -- ChrisO 22:51, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm not disputing Hugh Poulton. That Slavs exist in Albania is official anyway according to their national census. I'm disputing "majority" in Liqenas and that this particular emblem is "official" and no impartial sources have been provided. The burden of proof is on those seeking to include the material. How come data on the Greek minority in Albania from Greek sources is not even allowed as "according to Greek sources", whereas here a claims of a source with a conflict of interest are presented as facts.--PBD55 23:02, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
The statement that the community uses the Vergina Sun symbol is also supported by this bulletin of 20 September 1995 from the Macedonian Information and Liaison Service (MILS), which includes a story about "16-POINTED SUN OFFICIAL SYMBOL OF MUNICIPALITY PUSTEC IN ALBANIA". According to this report of the Albanian Helsinki Committee, Liqenas/Pustec is the largest of nine villages along the border inhabited by Macedonians. This Council of Europe report speaks of the minority being concentrated in Liqenas. -- ChrisO 23:09, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
The star source: MILS is the registered international bureau of the Australian-Macedonian Society Inc, and is supported by the Ilinden Foundation*. Again it's not impartial and I'm not disputing the existence of the minority. Why not say something like "the ethnic Mac minority in Albania which is based in and around Liqenas (Pustec) has adopted the Vergina Sun as official emblem according to various ethnic Macedonian sources"?--PBD55 23:15, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I must say I'm partly with PBD here. For a supposedly official act of a public agency, a suitable reliable source would be an official publication by that agency or some other governmental agency of the state involved (Albania), or perhaps a report from a well-known international press agency. The crucial thing in WP:RS is: "with a reputation for fact-checking". We really don't know if that Macedonian journal has any such reputation. We also don't know what "official adoption as a symbol" means. Are villages in Albania even legally entitled to chose municipial coats of arms? Can they do so on their own authority? Has whatever was done in that village any legal bearing within the governmental system of the Albanian state? We don't know. I suggest we should reintroduce the passage, because it clearly is interesting, but with some hedging such as "it was reported that..." The sources are not reliable to the degree that we could simply state it as an undisputable fact.

That said, you both know that you're really lucky you're not blocked now, right? And, ChrisO, you really ought not to have used protection, that was very poor style. PBD's edits were clearly nothing like vandalism. Fut.Perf. 22:25, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Protected

I've protected this page. Work those content disputes out, if the dispute is settled before three days time, let me know. If edit warring continues after protection expires, I'll be userblocking to prevent disruption. Regards, Mercury 20:29, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Strange footnote

Why is there the footnote: "Parts of this article are based on Research by editors of the Greek Wikipedia." in this article? It was claimed above that it's for GFDL reasons, but I can't see anything on the Greek page linked to that looks like there was any substantial concrete chunks of text transferred (or translated) from there to here. If it's merely ideas and information that were collected there and then incorporated here, information as such is not copyrightable and therefore not an issue of the GFDL. Can we remove that note? Otherwise we'd have to add a note to every article saying: "based on discussion on the talk page". Fut.Perf. 22:48, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Georgi Kitov

I am removing the reference to Georgi Kitov! Georgi Kitov is a higly controversial character from Bulgaria and he is higly critisized in Bulgaria. I am quoting from the entry in wikipedia Georgi Kitov :

"Kitov's Bulgarian archaeologist colleagues do not approve of his methods. He rarely bothers to document or analyze the artifacts he finds. He began to publish his findings only after several other archaeologists criticized him in public. He excavated the digs in a hurried manner, using heavy machinery. In February 2001 National Archaeological Institute and Museum censured him for excavating sites without permission and took away his authorizations to lead expeditions for a year. Later the same year they expelled Kitov from his post as a Thracian section. Kitov claims that he works quickly to save the sites from looters. His connections with the head of the National Archaeological Institute allow him to have dozens of digging permissions at the same time.

Bulgarian police has also accused him of working with confessed looters. Kitov had founded his own archaeological non-profit association Thracian Expedition for Tomb Studies, that infringes on the Bulgarian law about archaeological excavations. He also works for Bulgarian Investment Fund that furnished armed guards for Golyamata Kosmatka and intends to develop the site for tourism."

Is this person considered a valid source?? He is at list controversial and higly critised!! The fact that he has been expeled from his post and his authorizations to lead expeditions for a year has been taken is a valid reason to remove the reference about his views. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seleukosa (talkcontribs) 11:36, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

I think he is realy controvercial, but even National Geographic acknowledged him! [4]Jingby (talk) 11:54, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Highly controversial characters are not used as Valid sources! National geographic refers to him as the archaeologists who discover the specific artifacts and the specific monuments in the pictures! I certainly don’t consider the reference as acknowledgement! Sliman is often cited as the archaeologist who discovered the tomb of Agamemnon but he did not found any tomb of Agamemnon or anything close to Agamemnon and his is not credited as a valid source even for his own excavations! Further more in the pictures of national geographic we can even see the controversial methods he uses!! ( Jesus!!! in pic 6 he uses heavy machinery!!! And he scans for gold!!!) I am still reverting unless there is any valid source that can link the Vergina star with Thrace. ( further more the National Geographic article is tittled as :"Bulgaria's Gold Rush". Not at all an acknowledgement but rather critical!!) Seleukosa (talk) 12:14, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

The star and its variations existed in Ancient Greece everywhere even before Macedon became powerfull.stars.You can find the symbol in other cultures as well in variation.Megistias (talk) 11:28, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Kitov's claims are comical.The star is not found only or at first in Phillips tomb it was everywhere in ancient GreeceThe sun burst360 BC,Ancient Athens.It just became important in our eyes because of its location in such a tomb.He is making claims likeOvcharovthat is claiming Orpheus as a BulgarianMegistias (talk) 11:44, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
The left jar is from the Louvre,Spartan 6th century bc.Spartan jar with sun burstMegistias (talk) 16:47, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Thespians too[5]BOIOTIA, Thespiai. Early-mid 4th century BC,star of eight rays withinMegistias (talk) 22:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
BOIOTIA, Orchomenos. 395-364 BC,Again [6]Megistias (talk) 23:33, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
[7]CRETE. Itanus. Ca. 425-380 BC. Kretans too before Macedon's ascend to power.Megistias (talk) 13:39, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
[8]Sicily,334 bc.Megistias (talk) 22:25, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
[9]THETIS RIDING HIPPOKAMPOS,425 - 401 BC,another oneMegistias (talk) 23:08, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Kitov is a questionable source-to say the least- as the above indicate and i am removing him.If anyone wants to put him back in mention the above finds and the fact that the star was present in other ancient Greeks long before the Macedon's used itMegistias (talk) 08:53, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

The meaning of Professor Kitov that the star was also a Thracian symbol is fact. I do not see why it have to be deleted! Jingby (talk) 12:00, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

He is unreliable and the Thracian star declaration in the End is his own nationalistic fantasy.Megistias (talk) 12:09, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
"(as well as in the Middle East and elsewhere"That includes any other usage.he should be removed as a questionable source.Megistias (talk) 12:11, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

How did yow this understand? Jingby (talk) 12:20, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Here too another star[10] ca 490 BC,Megistias (talk) 21:54, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
[11]

Terracotta krater,Greek, Attic, Geometric, ca. 750–735 B.C.Enlarge and lookMegistias (talk) 17:52, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Image warring

What the hell is going on? We are having a Red vs Blue war over which images of the sun (as if there weren't enough) belong in the article! What do these images prove? That both sides claim the symbol? We already knew that! The last three images should be removed as they serve no purpose but to fuel edit wars. BalkanFever 09:11, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree. --Tsourkpk (talk) 18:44, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Except you misinterpreted what I said. The last three should be removed. BalkanFever 23:22, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
The Vinica pic and the bowl should be removed in the same spirit. The bowl pic in particular is what started this whole mess, and the Vinica pic came soon afterward. The article was just fine before Ireland101 stirred the hornet's nest, and I think the article should be restored to its consensus version. --Tsourkpk (talk) 23:35, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


Intro:Image shows the Vergina Sun. Should stay.

Interpretations: One was found in Greece, one was found in the Republic of Macedonia. This leads to different interpretations of the symbol. Both should stay.

Modern usage: Is used in the flag of Greek Macedonia. Was used in the flag of the Republic of Macedonia. Important in expression of identity. Both flags stay. Two more images show how the symbol is used in both places. Both stay. Sugar packet, stamp, and coin are redundant. Removed.

It is that simple. BalkanFever 23:43, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

The golden larnax is arguably the most significant manifestation of the Vergina Sun. The bowl is an unremarkable artifact of trivial archeological significance. So what if it was found on the FYROM side of the border? The border between Greece and the former Yugoslavia is aribtrarily drawn and is irrelevant to ancient history. I wonder if you would insist on including the bowl pic if the border between Greece and Yugoslavia had been drawn 15 km to the north of its current path, or if Philip had founded Heraclea Lyncestis 15 km to the south. Simlar artifacts have also been found in Bulgaria, and probably any other country that Alexander conquered. Are we to include an example of the Vergina Sun from each and every country where it was found? As such, the bowl pic is completely redundant and should be removed. --Tsourkpk (talk) 00:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
The bowl is ugly too.Megistias (talk) 00:08, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
The flag of Greek Macedonia is ugly. So what? BalkanFever 00:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
You mean the flag that looks exactly like RoM's 92-95 one, except with a blue background? I guess RoM -did- change it for aesthetic reasons after all. Sorry, just kidding; carry on. 3rdAlcove (talk) 00:54, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
The bowl is black and lacks any aesthetics or artistic expression worthy of note.And the Greek flag is just fine.Megistias (talk) 00:51, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
The image of the flag with the European flag and Greek flag is not fine. You have to click on the image to see the flag, and even then, one can only see three dark lines on a blue background. Where are the aesthetics? BalkanFever 03:17, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
The symbol is found all over the mediterrenean up to India and even before the ascend of macedon to power all over Greece.Megistias (talk) 23:33, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree with BalkanFever, the image of the Greek flag is invisible to the eye. It needs to be removed. Ireland101 (talk) 05:03, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Dont worry i ll take a new good photo of it soon.Megistias (talk) 12:16, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Having had a look at the image myself, I agree that it doesn't depict the flag at all clearly. I've had a look on the usual sources (Flickr etc) for an image of a Greek Macedonian flag but haven't found anything usable. If you can find or create a better quality image, please do so. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:39, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Proposed section-Gallery of paragraph

I propose we show the usage of the symbol by other Greeks prior to the Greek kingdom of macedon's ascend.This for example is already in wiki[12]Megistias (talk) 09:07, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I propose we show the usage of the star found in other countries, such as Afghanistan, India, Iran and Republic of Macedonia. BalkanFever 09:51, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Only for the ancient world Greeks which are the issue here.Megistias (talk) 09:53, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
?BalkanFever 10:02, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Greek artifacts are found all over several countries of Europe the mediterannean the middle east,northern africa and India.About 30-50 countries.What "?".This is about the antiquity.Megistias (talk) 10:05, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Antiquity is exactly the point here. There are no Modern Greek artifacts in any of those countries. There are, however, Ancient artifacts (specifically the Vergina sun) because of Alexander's empire. BalkanFever 10:16, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
The discussion is not about modern Greek art.Megistias (talk) 10:18, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
So why can't we include images of the Vergina sun (an ANCIENT symbol) found in other places in the world? BalkanFever 11:19, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
This has been resolved and putting it into 50 countries isnt plausible.The part on modern usage is big enough.Megistias (talk) 11:23, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
But it's not modern usage - they are ancient artifacts. Indians and Persians don't use the symbol today. But artifacts have been dug up showing the symbol. BalkanFever 11:27, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
What don't you understand? Ancient usage was of the Greeks and through Greek conquest the symbol spread in many ancient areas and the archaeological finds are in tens of modern countries now.And your desire for FYROM is pretty irrelevant and political since it has little to do with ancient macedon and more to do with Paeonia and Dardania.Megistias (talk) 11:31, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
From the article: "John Paul Adams cites its long-established use as a decorative element in Greek art (as well as in the Middle East and elsewhere)". That the sun motif has been used in Greek art is mentioned. No need for more pictures. 3rdAlcove (talk) 11:34, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
It's funny because Megistias wants to push his POV with a gallery of redundant pictures, but then he states that my (equally redundant) suggestion is useless. BalkanFever 11:38, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Poor little you. In any case, Megistias, if you have any sources stating that the sun motif spread from (southern) Greece to Macedon and then, via Alexander's conquests, to those areas but didn't exist there before, show them. 3rdAlcove (talk) 11:51, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
You do realise I don't actually care that my suggestion wa refused - I'm just pointing out POV pushing. BalkanFever 12:03, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Yep your pov pushing FYROM is redundant and you twisted my words from the start FeverMegistias (talk) 12:07, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Stop being silly, Megistias. BalkanFever is absolutely right (in all his carelessness). Now, what about those sources? 3rdAlcove (talk) 12:13, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
This was my proposal from the start and what still is."the usage of the symbol by other Greeks prior to the Greek kingdom of macedon"Megistias (talk) 12:16, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Oh oh, I see now. Sorry, I didn't notice the "Greek kingdom" part. I think we shouldn't make definitive statements though (NPOV and aaall that), so I'll have to agree with BalkanFever. The current pics are fine. 3rdAlcove (talk) 12:21, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I think it is important to show am example of the symbol prior to its usage in Macedon, and to show that it is in fact an older symbol that is frequently used in ancient Greek art. This goes to the heart of the question of how old the symbol is and what is its provenance. This has nothing to do with examples of the symbol found in other countries as a result of Alexander's conquest. That debate has been settled I think. --Tsourkpk (talk) 22:41, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
But -what- is its provenance? The article itself states that it has been found in ancient Thrace and the Middle East. Has a specific population/area/etc. been identified as the origin of the symbol or is it 'universal'? Can we really tell from where the Macedonians adopted it (Greeks or not) or even if the Greeks didn't adopt it themselves? In any case, this article mentions that it's widespread in Greek art and the other wiki articles explain the affiliations of the ancient Macedonians (as well as the modern ethnic ones). 3rdAlcove (talk) 12:39, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

1993?

Sorry BF, but I had to delete your "since 1993" addition. According to the article, that is when the Hellenic Parliament "passed a bill designating the Vergina Sun as an official Greek national symbol". That doesn't mean the individual peripheries didn't use the flag before then. In any case, the date needs to be sourced. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 15:48, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

OK. Look at the above section "Chronology an official status of the blue flag". BalkanFever 01:17, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

New flag photos

Choose which you will use fellas
Flags
Flags

Megistias (talk) 10:21, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Just a question - why is the flag transparent? BalkanFever 10:47, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Well the EU flag is as well and many new Greek flags look transparent too.Its the synthetic material i guess.Megistias (talk) 10:49, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
These are really recent, the flags are half-mast because of Archbishop Christodoulos death.--   Avg    20:48, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Yep ,are you in Greece as well?!Megistias (talk) 22:06, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Don't need to, I have a TV :-) --   Avg    22:43, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Second image looks better. Nice job Megistias! El Greco(talk) 01:31, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Animated Meaning of Vergina Sun

Hey all, I found a beautiful .gif that shows the analysis of the 16 lines of the Vergina Sun the 4 Elements -Fire, Air, Water, Earth and the 12 Greek Gods (Olympians)-Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Ares, Hermes, Hephaestus, Aphrodite, Athena, Apollo, Artemis, Hestia and their classification-male/female/celestial/water etc.
VerginaSun4Elements12GreekGods.gif
what do you think? I think it would be appropriate to be included in the "Interpretations of the symbol" section, as the explanation about the Twelve Greek Gods connection to the Vergina Sun is poor non-existent.DefendEurope (talk) 04:31, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

This doesn't look like a sourced, fair-use or free image. BalkanFever 07:56, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
DefendEurope, you said you "found" this image. Where? If you didn't make it yourself, it's most likely not free. As for the content, if you want to present this as an analysis of what the symbol meant, that would have to be sourced to reliable literature. Fut.Perf. 08:02, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

on Olympia

in 2nd paragraph, article reads: ``Another version of the Vergina Sun, with 12 rays, was found on the larnax of Olympias. I suspect you refer to the second larnax found in the royal tomb. If yes, I think this requires a correction because even if the majority view that the tomb is Philipp's is correct, then the second larnax would contain the bones of Philipp's second wife -- not Olympias. would be good if someone could doublecheck. cheers hary —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hpapachristou (talkcontribs) 09:16, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Vergina Sun missing or inaccurate INFORMATION

1) The article states the tomb was Philip II's, but the Tomb the Vergina Sun was found in did not belong to Philip II, the father of Alexander the Great, it was Alexander the Great's BROTHER. http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/macedon/ Maktruth (talk) 01:36, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

2) The article states that Greeks have been using the symbol of the Vergina Sun before it was found in the tomb, please provide sources for this. Maktruth (talk) 01:36, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

3) The Vergina Sun was used internationally before it was "found" in Greece. In the 1956 film "Alexander The Great" the Vergina Sun can be found on the main actor,Richard Burton, and the Macedonian soldiers shields. (main source: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0048937/) http://www.imdb.com/media/rm475633920/tt0048937 Maktruth (talk) 01:36, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

4) The article fails to state the Vergina Sun is also found in the Republic of Macedonia, and its presence is not exclusive to Greece. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Ohrid_Ancient_macedonian_sun_symbol_ceramics1.jpg Maktruth (talk) 01:36, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Please add this information into the article Maktruth (talk) 03:56, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
  • 1)Perhaps
  • 2)There are sources for this in the article and the symbol was used by Greeks many centuries ago
  • 3)Irrelevant(movie!) the sun was found in Greece and was before 1956.Its a symbol used by Ancient Greeks.
  • 4)The sun was Ancient Greek and other peoples had similar symbolism.(Rom)was Paeonian and Dardanian land not Macedonian meaning Ancient Greek land.

Megistias (talk) 08:17, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

1) Not perhaps, it's true. Maktruth (talk) 05:40, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
2) I am not stating if it were used by Greeks many CENTURIES AGO, sources are needed that show Greeks in Macedonia (Greek Macedonians) have been using the symbol from 1913-Vergina Sun finding. Maktruth (talk) 05:40, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
3) I was using the movie as an example to simply point out the hypocricy that the Vergina Sun was "Found" at Vergina. You simply prove my point that it was found long before hand and has been used internationally.Maktruth (talk) 05:40, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
4)If other people had similar symbolism to the point where it looks identical, then that states it is not exclusive, but the symbol was used by international cultures. Republic of Macedonia included ancient Macedonian land within it, please learn of the boundaries of ancient Macedonia and even realize Phillip II established Ohrid. Maktruth (talk) 05:40, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
Philip II was the father of Alexander the Great. Don't lecture others if even something that basic escapes your knowledge. --Tsourkpk (talk) 06:24, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

The Vergina Sun was also discovered a few years ago in the town of Kratovo, Republic of Macedonia. The interesting and perhaps confusing thing about it is that the location where Kratovo is situated in did not belong to the Ancient Kingdom of Macedon, but is located in the borders of todays Republic of Macedonia/Region of Macedonia. The archaeologists said it has 8 sun rays instead of 16 and that it could be a more original and older symbol of the ancient Macedonians, kind of like a prototype of the Vergina Sun. I think that perhaps this fact shoud be part of the article, too. Cukiger (talk) 16:41, 23 April 2008 (UTC)


That is just your own speculation and original research. The Kratovo artifact does not look anything like the Vergina Sun. --Tsourkpk (talk) 19:04, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

What speculation? I've written down only facts and gave an option, not my own opinion on anything. Have you seen it? It is just like the Vergina Sun, but only with 8 rays. Cukiger (talk) 04:46, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

That is a ridiculous argument. The Vergina Sun is defined as having 16 rays, so any symbol that has a different number of rays is not a Vergina Sun. I could say that the NATO emblem "is just like the Vergina sun but with only 4 rays". The "Kratovo Sun" a different symbol, period. If you're so fond of it, maybe you can create an article called Kratovo Sun and talk about it there all you want. This is the article on the Vergina Sun, not the article on the Vergina sun and things that look similar but with only eight rays". --Tsourkpk (talk) 05:39, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

"The archaeologists said it has 8 sun rays instead of 16 and that it could be a more original and older symbol of the ancient Macedonians, kind of like a prototype of the Vergina Sun."Cukiger (talk) 22:35, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Thracians are included in the article already.Megistias (talk) 22:42, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
The archaeologists? Which archaeologists? Which journal did "they" publish it in? By all means include it in the article if you can quote that from a reliable source. --Tsourkpk (talk) 22:52, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
(rom) is in Paeonian and Dardanian territory so Thracians are included already.Megistias (talk) 22:56, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

John Shea the psychologist

Remove John Shea he is a psychologist.
John Shea john shea.
  • Research Areas:

Psychological factors that affect health, especially immune functions, allergies and cancer Support groups for cancer patients Personality factors as predictors of hypnotic talent, and the use of hypnosis for bodily change Human sexuality My PhD work at the University of Queensland was in the area of attachment behaviour in children. Following four years as a tutor at the University of Queensland, I went to the University of Papua New Guinea for seven years. Here I studied a variety of issues of concern to such a developing country, in particular questions about cognitive development and the measurement of cognitive skills. I joined the University of Newcastle in 1979 and continued my interests in applied areas of psychology, teaching and researching in the areas of child development, human sexuality, and health. My applied interests were reflected also in my work as a practising psychologist during this period. For more than 25 years now I have worked as a consulting psychologist, and am a fellow and immediate past president of the Australian College of Practising Consulting Psychologists (ACPCP). Ongoing involvement with the practice of psychology includes work with Psychology Private Australia, the peak body of private practising psychologists in Australia.

  • Being specialized in 'attachment behaviour in children' makes you a qualified 'historian'? No.
  • Also the symbol was used in Byzantium as well and its Greek in general not just ancient Greek.Megistias (talk) 05:20, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
And Peter Hill quoted through Shea states that the symbol was Ancient Greek as well.To what point is he mentioned?(And through Shea as well.)Megistias (talk) 12:54, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Virgin sun is belong to Republic of Macedonia not to Greece!They stolen from Macedonia!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.205.43.201 (talk) 02:49, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Inaccurate article information

  • The article states that Greeks have been using the symbol of the Vergina Sun before it was found in the tomb, please provide sources for this (that is, Greeks were using the Sun from 1913-finding)
  • The Vergina Sun was used internationally before it was "found" in Greece. In the 1956 film "Alexander The Great" the Vergina Sun can be found on the main actor,Richard Burton, and the Macedonian soldiers shields. How can something be found when it has obviously been already used in the past?

Just because it was found in a modern country doesn't mean that the people who live there built/did it. For example Aghia Sophia is found in modern day Turkey but it isn't Turkish for gods sake. 62.1.223.84 (talk) 14:57, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Flag of the Macedonian minority in Serbia and Montenegro.gif

The image Image:Flag of the Macedonian minority in Serbia and Montenegro.gif is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

  • That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
  • That this article is linked to from the image description page.

The following images also have this problem:

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --07:10, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Use of the old state flag by ethnic Macedonians

Zakronian, do we even have to 'prove' (ref) the usage of the old flag by them? I think it's obvious.. Cukiger (talk) 22:49, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Not to me, i mean look at the samples i have at my disposal, userpages here or the nationalist rallies reported in press reports etc. I see it only linked with extreme views about Greek and regional heritage belonging to and stolen from ethnic Macedonians. And by default linking the use of a primarily ancient Greek symbol (fact) to a moderate ethnic Macedonian position (supposedly representing the majority of ethnic Macedonians) needs sourcing. I personally adopt the view that the flag was used for political reasons, as an exchange option for later diplomatic negotiations with Greece and because at the time of independence the state needed and promoted nationalistic propaganda to strengthen the ethnic consciousness, i mean you had the Albanians from one side ready to claim a part and the Bulgarians waiting to incorporate the rest (and later the Greek reaction to feed your nationalism), perfectly understandable. But given that its use started as part of the government's endorsement of direct claims/links on ancient heritage and irredentism (something that's not the screaming case anymore) i'd like to see some proof about current general use. If you can establish a consensus without sources with other editors then ignore my objections, not the usual suspects of course..--Zakronian (talk) 01:11, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Capitalization

Is there any reason why the article should be titled Vergina Sun rather than Vergina sun? "Sun" here doesn't appear to be a proper noun. --Amble (talk) 01:06, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

That is how many, perhaps most, of the sources that refer to it title it. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:15, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
OK, I suppose that's reason enough. It gives the appearance, though, that "Sun" is inheriting the capitalization of "Vergina." --Amble (talk) 01:28, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
Not really... I think it would have to be considered as a multi-word proper noun, where the capitalisation applies to the whole noun (i.e. "Vergina Sun"), rather like "Second Amendment" or "National Assembly". -- ChrisO (talk) 01:33, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Intellectual Property of Greece

Who removed this part? Bring it back on. I don't know how to do that myself so .. :P —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.1.143.1 (talk) 10:42, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Use in RoM prior to 1992

Macedonia has used a stylized version of the Vergina Sun prior to 1992, has it not ? Hxseek (talk) 04:33, 27 July 2009 (UTC)


The use of this symbol in Greek religious Icons, furniture, interior decoration, exterior Church decoration for the over the last 1500 years?

Why is this not mentioned? Who gains from hiding this fact? The symbol was never lost and rediscovered. It has been in constant use in the Greek religious world especially since its conception. Also the star was never purely ancient macedonian anyway. I cannot believe how this article has been hijacked. Scary article. I spose if it is edited we will see FYROM editors here quicker that rats fleeing a burning ship? Is there anyone honest left on Wiki? http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w45/chrisphilipou/VirginMotherEleusaRussia14thcentury.jpg


—Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.29.178 (talk) 19:04, 8 September 2009 (UTC) 

Yes, the solar motif is common amongst many Indo-Europeans, incl Thracians, Paeonians, Sarmatians. So all eastern Europeasn are entitle to it then ? Hxseek (talk) 09:45, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Not quite the same as the "Vergina Sun" though... :) A Macedonian, a Greek. (talk) 15:39, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

Occupant of the larnax with 12-point star

As comment 26 indicates, the reference to the larnax with 12-point star presumably refers to the larnax in the ante-chamber, which contained the cremains of the occupant's wife, a young woman. This must have been either the young Thracian princess Meda - who may have felt obliged to join her husband on the pyre -- suttee -- or Cleopatra, murdered soon after Philip's death, or if the main larnax contains the remains of Philip Arrhidaeus - rather less likely - than the small larnax must contain the bones of his wife Eurydice. It cannot possibly have been that of Olympias, who, famously, was never buried - see Wikipedia article. I have therefore amended the text accordingly.

Mens Sana (talk) 13:32, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Old comments

What does "Vergina" mean? Can we see a representation? Even a link to one on the Net? -- Zoe 01:25, 21 March 2003‎ (UTC)

Vergina is a small town in the Greek province of Macedonia that in 1991 had a population of 1255 people. Ancient ruins at the town's area were discovered during the mid-19th centurie. A systematic archaelogical excavation started on 1937. It was discovered that the ruins belonged to the ancient city of Aiges. Settled around 1000 BC, it served as the earliest capital of the Kingdom of Macedon from the 7th century BC to the late 5th Century BC. The city continued to be the religious center of the Kingdom and it was traditional for the marriages of the royal familie to be celebrated there. It was also the traditional burial site of the Macedonian Kings, with the exception of Alexander the Great. Many of the royal graves have been excavated and research continues. It is unknown when the city was abandoned but ancient sources last mention it as captured by the Celtic mercenaries of the King of Heperus on 274 BC.

It is considered one of Greece's most important archaelogical sites and the findings, including the symbol, have been named afterr the nearby modern town. Judging from my personal visit there a few years ago , it is an interesting place for those interested in the past User:Dimadick — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.16.225.54 (talk) 08:04, 18 May 2003‎ (UTC)

Star of Vergina

"It originated from the vergina tombs on a golden casket from the tomb of Philip, father of Alexander The Great. But this archaeological find had already long been a part of Greek identity - causing a massive diplomatic row""


"Similar abuses occurred during the Balkans conflicts following Yugoslavia's break-up - not just in Macedonia, but throughout the region, argued Stasa Babic of Belgrade University"


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3372117.stm

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Philhellenism (talkcontribs) 00:26, 13 December 2006‎ (UTC)

I like how 99% of Wikipedia has articles with greek words with (greek: 'greek word') and this nothing.

It's obviously attacked by Slavic Macedonian propaganda. --fs 16:48, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

One problem is that, as far as I am aware, the ancient name for the symbol is unknown, so putting in a modern Greek name (or that of any language besides English) would be an irrelevance. DoubleDoubleDouble (talk) 20:38, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

"supposed continuity"

My edit requesting a citation for the claim that there is only a "supposed" (that is, believed but with little or no evidence) continuity between ancient Macedonia and modern Greek culture has been reverted. The reason given was that the assertion of continuity is well-attested in the sources provided. I'm a bit confused, as my citation needed tag wasn't for the assertion of continuity, but for the claim that it was a supposition (that is, a belief that has little to no evidence). I'm not sure which sources were meant, but I haven't been able to find any evidence in the small sample of the 41 footnotes I checked that says the claim is merely "supposed," or that it is the most widely held viewpoint in the field, or that its suppositional nature is well-known enough to not need a citation. Perhaps someone with more knowledge on this than me could shed some light. Running From Zombies (talk) 08:16, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

"Copyright" section should be titled "Trademark"

It's discussing a trademark on the Vergina Sun design, not a copyright on anything. --Larry (talk) 05:23, 2 April 2014 (UTC)