Talk:Victor Maghakian

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Saipan and Tinian[edit]

The article says both that Maghakian was so badly wounded on Saipan in June that he was discharged from the Marines, but also that he played a prominent role in the invasion of Tinian in July. This is obviously contradictory. Nick-D (talk) 10:01, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes I agree. However, I just reviewed the source and it wasn't Maghakian who got injured, but Carl Evans. I fixed the issue by removing the information. Unfortunately, now I am in a dilemma. I cannot find any information about Maghakian's role and duties in Saipan. But I know he actually got discharged in 1946. Proudbolsahye (talk) 20:18, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

His Awards[edit]

I'd suggest that several of those listed in the infobox should be removed as not notable and are cluttering the infobox. I'd propose removing the Navy-PUC, the NUC, the Good Conduct Medal, the American Defense Medal, and the Asiatic-Pacific Campaign medals from the infobox. Of course there is no established MOS on the subject, but those are rarely used within the infobox. On the otherhand, a couple of those I suppose I could envision a rational for them- A GCM is unusual for an Officer (though not that unusual for a mustang officer like himself). Likewise, 3 PUC's is a little unusual, and 7 campaign stars on a single campaign medal is also a little unusual, so I suppose I could see potential arguments for keeping those three, but I'm not sure such arguments would be persuasive enough. In any event, at least the NUC and American defense medal should probably be removed from the infobox.

The lead say's Having been awarded over two dozen medals, ... (emphasis added). Firstly, I don't think medals is the right word, since only 13 of those listed in the article are technically medals. Perhaps change it to "awards" or "military awards" or "medals and awards", or something similar.

Secondly, and far less important (this is more of a comment and future suggestion than anything that should be fixed), if it's "over two dozen" then some are missing from the article. Depending on how you count it, at most I count 23 or 24 awards listed in the article - though I suppose that "over 24 total" could easily enough be reached if including the marksmanship badges he has in the picture (it looks like an Expert Rifle Marksmanship Qualification Badge and a Basic Badge with 5 clasps). I also notice a ribbon in the picture not listed in the awards section - It looks like a Marine Corps Expeditionary Medal ribbon, but without a color version of the photo we can't be certaint. Going forward I'd suggest trying to find a source listing his full awards, or at least an ennumeration of how the "over 24" is calculated. Cheers, Gecko G (talk) 22:09, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

@Gecko G:
  1. You can fix the medals in the infobox however you deem appropriate. I trust your judgement on that.
  2. I'm fine with "medals and awards"
  3. You bring up a very good point. The best source for all his medals would be Demirjian but unfortunately this hasn't included all the medals per your observation. There's another picture of him here which may be of help for you. At any rate, I think it's safe to add the Expert Rifle Marksmanship Qualification Badge and Basic Badge with 5 clasps to the medal section. It pains me so much that we don't have a source for the Marine Corps Expeditionary Medal. It's best to judge not only by the badge itself but where the badge is positioned in accordance to its rank and relation to other badges. Also, the medal section should also be organized the way John Kizirian and George Juskalian is put together. Étienne Dolet (talk) 07:20, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
Étienne:
  1.  Done. I also used the plainlist template as recomended in the infobox documentation.
  2. I tried it but realised that the verb of that sentence is "awarded", so "awarded ... awards" is not right. It needs some other wording. Maybe "recieved ... medals and awards"?
  3. I wouldn't add the badges at this time, if ever, because A) The picture is not clear enough to be sure those are in-deed the correct one's, & B) If those are the right badges, those particular one's are common enough for Marines that I don't think they are usually listed on Wikipedia Biography articles (at least I've not seen it), beyond maybe a mention within the prose. Cheers, Gecko G (talk) 01:46, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
@Gecko G: I think his medals should be three columns and rows with the Navy Cross on the top just like how it is in the picture. Étienne Dolet (talk) 04:15, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
In the picture he has a different number of ribbons than in the article. The Marine Corps uniform reg's (at least the most recent version - I don't know about past versions) are a bit more restrictive with arranging the ribbons than some other services - With 12 ribbons the only two valid arrangements are 4/4/4 or 3/3/3/3. He could wear a 1/2/3/3/3 arrangement ONLY IF the first ribbon would otherwise be obscured by a lapel or collar in a 3/3/3/3 arrangement (and even then a 4/4/4 would be prefered). Since there's no lapel nor collar here, that's not a possibility. See PMCUB, Chapter 5, section 3, entries 5301.4 & .5. Cheers, Gecko G (talk) 03:00, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
@Gecko G: Okay, in light of your response here, I'm fine with leaving it as is for now. We may need a third-opinion on this though. Étienne Dolet (talk) 07:48, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

I knew something was still off on his awards display, and I finally figured out what it was that was bothering me- the Navy Presidential Unit Citation had the wrong kind of stars. It's not supposed to have the golden ​516 Award stars, despite the name, but rather bronze ​316 Service stars. Per SECNAVISNT 1650.1H §123.1, page 1-8:

"The larger size (5/16 inch for Naval personal decorations, and 3/16 inch for unit, campaign, service, and engagement awards, with the exception of the Navy "E" Ribbon) is worn on the suspension ribbon of the large medal, and service ribbon or ribbon bar, to denote subsequent awards received. ... With the exception of the Navy "E" Ribbon, for unit, campaign, service, and engagement (or battle star) awards, bronze and silver stars are used similarly."

So I've changed it. Cheers, Gecko G (talk) 15:48, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

@Gecko G: Thanks. I'm curious though, why is the Asian-Pacific Campaign Medal cited four times? Where did those citations belong originally? Étienne Dolet (talk) 06:24, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
Étienne- After a brief skim through the article history, it looks like you added those citations. You moved three of them from the Bronze Star to the AP-CM with your edit of 17 March 2013 at 13:59 [1] and and then you added the fourth with your edit of 28 March 2013 at 11:39 [2]. Looking at those specific references, I notice that the Rehart link is dead, two are not available online to check at the moment, and the one which is available online only mentions 5 campaign stars. Cheers, Gecko G (talk) 15:32, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
it looks like my local library has a copy of the Rehart source. I'll be going to the library on Tuesday after work, do you want me to check it? It's listed in the reference section so I can't check it out to bring home to read in depth, but I could look something up quickly. Gecko G (talk) 15:47, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
@Gecko G: That's great news! You know, I didn't uncover the Demirjian source until after I made this article. Like I said, that source is the most accurate and comprehensive when it comes to military bios and awards/decorations. Demirjian's source can also be verified with Tashjian's source that states he was awarded seven. Also, Mooradian source says "His honors included two Silver Stars, two Bronze Stars, two Purple Hearts, the Navy Cross, a Navy Unite citation, a Presidential Citation with two stars, and an Asiatic-Pacific Area Campaign Medal with seven battle stars." Étienne Dolet (talk) 20:24, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
So is it just the awards section I should make note of from Rehart on Tuesday? I see the library also has the Bulbulian source - the other listed sources either don't show up in the online catalogue or are not at the local library. Gecko G (talk) 21:00, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
@Gecko G: I have Bulbulian in my possession. There's not much info there. I don't think Rehart has much info either. In terms of his awards, I think we have all we need for now. I doubt there's any more awards than the ones listed in the article. I remember reading in the Fresno Bee (Setencich, E. (1997, May 07). The maddy freeway? so, why not vuich? The Fresno Bee) that the Maghakian family requested that he be awarded the Medal of Honor posthumously. I believe that they have requested to have him awarded the MoH through their local Congressman but to no avail it seems. Unfortunately, I don't have the access to that article to clarify that at the moment. Étienne Dolet (talk) 04:47, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
Turns out neither one was a Reference book so I was able to check both of them out.
You were right about Bulbulian not having much, it has all of 4 sentences in his entry in an appendix, and I don't think Rehart is much good for his military awards, since it reads as follows:

...Lieutenant Victor Maghakian was awarded the Navy Cross, the Purple Heart with a gold cluster, the Gold Star, two Silver Stars, the Defense Medal, a second Purple Heart and the Presidential Citation of his division. ... he was awarded a good conduct medal. ....

I'm guessing the "gold cluster" on the first purple heart is supposed to mean a bronze oak leaf cluster, but A) that would mean two awardings (thus Rehart's listing of a second PH makes no sense) & B) hadn't the Marines already switched to using Stars by then? ie see this discussion regarding Lemuel C. Shepherd, Jr. who had OLC's from WWI & a Star from WWII. I'm also guessing the "Gold Star" is supposed to be the Bronze Star('s), and that the "Defense Medal" is the American Defense Service Medal - but why that one would be singled out, and not the other service medals, I don't understand. Given all of that I would say that Rehart is not very reliable a source for medals information.
I don't see where Bulbulian has the family living at M & Monterrey, in neither the text nor the pull-out map of Old Armenia Town. And Rehard doesn't say the brothers enlisted, but rather served (thus could be enlisted or could of been officers). Gecko G (talk) 01:13, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

The best source for Maghakian is going to be Demirjian. He's the best source for any Armenian-American military personnel. Étienne Dolet (talk) 00:00, 22 May 2014 (UTC)