Talk:Vijayanagara Empire

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Featured articleVijayanagara Empire is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
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Article milestones
DateProcessResult
January 11, 2007Peer reviewReviewed
January 31, 2007Featured article candidatePromoted
Current status: Featured article

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Untitled[edit]

The Idea is not to believe one author, but to balance the views of many authors, which is what has been done in this article. Log in and write your comments on this page, or hold your peace. THURSTON is not the only author in the world to write about Vijayanagara Empire. Wikipedia is an Encyclopedia where the intention is not to "BELIEVE" any one author but to bring in views of many authors. Try to read more books and understand the views of many authors.Dineshkannambadi 03:23, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

MANY THANKS TO YOU FOR SUGGESTING ME TO TRY TO READ MORE BOOKS AND UNDERSTAND THE VIEWS OF MANY AUTHORS.I BELIEVE I HAVE READ ENOUGH BOOKS,AND THURSTON'S BOOK HAPPENED TO BE ONE AMONG THEM. THE INFORMATION I GOT FROM OTHER BOOKS AND SOURCES HAD CONCURRED WITH THE INFORMATION IN THURSTON'S BOOK AND I GUESS IT HELPED ME TO FORM "A BALANCED VIEW" ON THESE TELUGU DYNASTIES. THE REASON I QUOTED THURSTON'S BOOK WAS SIMPLY BECAUSE OF THE FOLLOWING REASONS (1) EDGAR THURSTON WAS A FAMOUS ETHNOGRAPHER AND MUSEOLOGIST BASED IN MADRAS AND HENCE WAS WELLVERSED WITH SOUTHERN INDIA .(2) HE WAS A BRITISH WRITER WHO LIVED BETWEEN 1855 -1935 (IN MY OPINION BRITISH WRITERS WERE BRUTALLY HONEST IN FACT FINDING AND REPORTING WITHOUT ANY BIAS).(3)ALL HIS VOLUMES ON CASTES AND TRIBES OF SOUTHERN INDIA ARE CONSIDERED AS JEWELS AND ARE GREATLY RESPECTED FOR AUTHENTICITY .

Please dont write in upper case. Its extremely painfull to read. Again, There are many many authors, Thurston is one among them. I dont intend to go on and on about this. All views have to be balanced on the "wikipedia", not in your mind. What is your balanced view is immaterial to wikipedia. You may have convinced yourself that these were all Telugu dynasties, but thats of no importance to wikipedia. Please understand wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a news paper. Secondly, please stop towing this "British" line. They happened to be as biased as anyone, based on their own requirements. Its amazing that we still bank on foreign scholars to tell and teach us our history even after all the progress we have made in epigraphy. Is'nt this what made us a colony for 200 years?. We are independent now, so lets think independently. I have been through this with other new editors for more than a year and dont intend to go on and on. In addition, wikipedia gives no valve to opinions user's who dont log in. They are called anonymous editors. Wish you the best of luck in finding your.

Let me put down a few points so we all understand what wikipedia is, since you seem to be new here.

1. wiki is not the place to decide what is the truth, but only a place to report all possible verifyable opinions. The readers can decide what they want from it.

2. Wiki is not the place to decide whether the British were better at history or the Spanish or Germans. Thats your won POV (point of view) which is not allowed per policy.

3. If you read the article carefully, no where is an attempt made to certify whether the Vijayanagara Kings were Telugu or Kannadigas. Only the views of scholars are mentioned. Thats is how an encyclopedia works per policy. Perhaps you may want to write a book on Thurston and his views, but then you cant bring that book to wikipedia because "original research" is not allowed here per policy.

4. Wikipedia does not value opinions of anonymous editors. Only material brought in by Log in editors is valued, if verifiable. I hope this clarifies what wikipedia is. I am not trying to be rude, but more than a years worth of hard work has gone into the article, with multiple trips to Vijayanagara/Hampi. Its takes a lot of trouble to write a Featured article and very little to make anonymous arguements. Dineshkannambadi 12:27, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

NO DOUBT YOU PUT YOUR HEART INTO THIS AND TOILED MORE THAN A YEAR BRINGING OUT THE ARTICLE. I UNDERSTAND YOUR PAIN FOR RECEIVING FLAK FROM VARIOUS READERS INSPITE OF YOUR HARD WORK INCLUDING MULTIPLE TRIPS TO VIJAYANAGARA / HAMPI. BEST OF LUCK IN YOUR ENDEAVOURS. HUMILITY CAN BE A GREAT PLUS IN COMMUNICATIONS.

Thank you for understanding. Please also read Vijayanagara Empire Literature and Origin of Vijayanagara Empire where more objective info is provided. All the info in these article comes from myself and user: Mlpkr. I hope you enjoy the reading.Dineshkannambadi 22:18, 21 April 2007 (UTC)


Reply-------------------------------

Telugu gained prominence only during krishnadevaraya because he patronised telugu (despite being kannada) out of his personal interst (or because he had telugu spouses). There is no support or proper telugu evidence prior to Krishnadevaraya in viajayangar empire history. Telugu had it's golden

age around krishna devaraya time (15th century) which shows that it is relatively newer language.

Besides Kannada inscriptions are available in andhra pradesh abudantly which proves kannada rulers ruled andhra region for a long time.

The mother tongue of sri krishnadevaraya is kannada. (though he spoke both languages) It was Kannada and not Tulu. The evidence for this is that his dynasty is called the 'Kannada Dynasty'. He was a man equally respected by malayalam, tamil, telugu, kannada, kodava speakers. 71.90.100.176 (talk) 07:07, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

The translated name[edit]

(I removed the phrase 'translation; Victory city', because that is the translation of Vijayanagara, not of Vijayanagara samrajya. I left a possibly confusing edit note.)

Is there any evidence that the empire was called Vijayanagara samrajya during its own time? Imc

I will try to dig up that info. However, I would be surprised if contemporary literature / Inscriptions did not call it that. None the less, it is an exact vernacular translation of the English name of the empire.Dineshkannambadi 00:34, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm fine with the existing name, but wouldn't Vijayanagar be better for users alien to the subject. Your views? --AltruismTo talk 05:55, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
I have no problem with the transileration of Vijayanagara in the article.Dineshkannambadi 12:08, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

The Royal Preceptors Thatha Gurus[edit]

Please donot delete the following in the article under the 'Religion' heading "A lot of references could be stated with respect to the Vijayanagar ruler's devotion towards their religious preceptors known as "Thatha Gurus"[1] or "Thathachariyars". This clan of Hindu Brahmin Vaishnavaitic community trace their origin from Periya Thirumalai Nambi known as Sri Saila Purna. He is the maternal uncle of the great philosopher Sri Ramanuja. Legend says that Sri Saila Purna was called as – "Thathah:" that means "The Holy Father" by the GOD of Thirumala Sri Balaji. Later they trace their origin from the cities of Kumbakonam and Kanchipuram in Tamil Nadu. These clan of people were extremely brilliant and benovalent. They adorned the court of the Vijayanagar Empire and later the courts of Nayaka rulers, Kingdom of Mysore. The most popular and important among the Thathachariyars were Pancha matha bandhana Thatha Desikan (who wrote the famous literary work of 'Panch matha bandhanam') and Lakshmi Kumara Thathachariar ( wrote "Srimath Hanumath Vimsadhi","Desika Prabandha Eedu" and 12 other literary works) who were the Chief Ministers and Raja Gurus of the Kingdom of Vijayanagar. Sri Krishna Devaraya the greatest among the Vijayanagar Rulers was guided by the Thatha Gurus. Even today the existence of this clan of people could be traced in the modern towns of Kanchipuram[2], Kumbakonam, Srirangam, Srivilliputtur, Sriperumbudhur in Tamil Nadu in India.[3]" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.8.2.69 (talk) 11:06, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Let this user "Gnanapiti" verify the records of Vijayanagara Empire and find the contributions of Thathachariars. Also, hope this user is not aware of the stories of Tenali Ramakrishna, where we could easily find Thathachariars. 136.8.2.69 (talk) 11:43, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

References

Main Page appearance[edit]

Congrats on the Main page appearance! My only concern is the number of templates on the right-hand side of the article combined with the number of images on the left-hand side of the page. --Another Believer (Talk) 16:00, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, well done developing such an important and extensive article on a part of the world under-represented on Wikipedia. Thanks to all the editors for their hard work in getting this to FA and on the front page. Bravo! Lemurbaby (talk) 17:41, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Nice to see this article on the main page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.194.218.183 (talk) 18:01, 3 November 2012 (UTC)

Confusing sentences[edit]

The second and third sentences of 'History' do not make sense. Do they mean that Harihara and Bukka Raya were either Nayaka or Kanadigsa? Dudley Miles (talk) 20:12, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Section on Literature[edit]

as been changed, but I assumed this was discussing the languages at the time of the Vijayanagara Empire, not modern languages, and the time of the Vijayanagara Empire is a complex one in the histories of at least Kannada and Telugu and their scripts and their vernaculars and who spoke middle, versus the development of modern scripts and languages, versus priestly and upper class languages, for lack of better terms due to my limited knowledge of the topic. I would not be too quick to rewrite this in modern terms, nor to remove the term vernacular from discussing the local languages. I'm not sure if there is a justification, but it's not so straight-forward that one can write it in modern languages terms (in which case Sanskrit becomes the one of these things not like the others) without a source that says that is the case. Also, the grammar appears to lump Telugu and Tamil in with Kannada and Sanskrit, "and other regional languages," not just "and regional languages like" ....Pseudofusulina (talk) 03:01, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Adding Video Content[edit]

I would like to post video footage of the following ruins relating to the Vijayanagara Empire located in Hampi. This video was taken as part of a documentary produced by the Global Lives Project:

ruins

I would subclip the video down to about one minute. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jordanhkatz (talkcontribs) 20:26, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Merger proposal[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The result of this discussion was merge. -Ugog Nizdast (talk) 18:15, 20 November 2013 (UTC)

I propose that Karnata Empire be merged into Vijayanagara Empire. I think that the content in the Karnata Empire article can easily be explained in the context of Vijayanagara Empire, and the Vijayanagara Empire article is of a reasonable size that the merging of Karnata Empire will not cause any problems as far as article size or undue weight is concerned.  Tentinator  06:10, 6 July 2013 (UTC)


The above discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Wrong and misleading maps[edit]

The maps suggest that Vijayanagar empire covered all of south India. This is wrong because their armies did not stay much on the western side of the Western Ghats. So please change this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.65.69.129 (talk) 00:33, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Page protected[edit]

I've protected the page due to the recent edit war. This is not an endorsement (or otherwise) of the current version. Editors are requested to discuss the issues here and implement the consensus. —SpacemanSpiff 13:39, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

Telugu[edit]

please change ((Telugu)) to ((Telugu language|Telugu)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:541:4305:c70:5823:6997:57b1:e338 (talk) 14:39, 10 June 2016‎ (UTC)

The link disambig requested is probably at: "King Krishnadevaraya himself composed the epic poem Amuktamalyada in Telugu" — Andy W. (talk ·ctb) 15:59, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
 Donexaosflux Talk 16:26, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

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Vijayanagara Empire flag[edit]

The flag shown in this article as the flag of the Vijayanagara Empire isn't real. As I checked crw flags and I saw absolutely nod description of a Vijayanagara Empire flag. It appears the flag was based out of this flag which was made in 2013 on wikimedia commons https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Vijayanagara_Empire.png. I would like to remove this flag from the article as it was onlyc reated by artist as a flag proposal for the Vijayanagara Empire in 2013. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.106.142.1 (talk) 09:56, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

While I cannot comment on the authenticity of the flag design, I can say that the Vijaynagar Emblem of Sun and the Cresent Moon, appear in many Vijaynagar Period Inscriptions. See the below

Other editors to comment WestCoastMusketeer (talk) 02:43, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Added section of Decline (of empire), based on the book Vijayangara (2003) by Gertrude Stein[edit]

Decline[edit]

One of the reasons for sudden collapse of vijayanagara empire in 16th (1575) century was the poor Foreign policy during the end of last decades of its greatness. This facilitated the [Islam sultanates| Islamic rulers in South Asia] to resume their march towards south [1]. The kingdom was quite powerful in southern peninsula when Krishnadevaraya was the king of vijayanagara. After the death of krishnadevaraya, the kingdom was beginning to be partitioned into smaller parts like Thanjavur, Madurai,Gingee and Ikkeri. So it can be concluded that at its peak time vijayanagara was a weakly centralized polity.The other kingdoms that were present at that time asserted that many parts of vijaynagara empire were working independently so it could not be claimed as a fully fledged empire. [2].

After the demise of vijajyanagara empire, new kindoms of madurai, tanjavur and gingee were established and the ruler of their empires were the sons of vijayanagar miliatary commanders who declared themselves as kings.[3].

Want to add a section on decline, after understanding about the empire. I don't want to reduce the quality of the page and hence I am moving the content from wiki page to talks page. Suggestions are most welcome.

  • Stein, Gertrude (2003). NCHI Vol I.II: VIjayanagara. India: Foundation Books. ISBN 978-8185618463.
Hi Wordlciv. Much of the information you have provided already exists in the article: such as the empire being powerful during the rule of Krishnadeva Raya, breaking up into smaller kingdoms after the empires demise etc. The only new info in your content seems to be the poorly centralized polity with provinces such as Madurai, Ikkeri asserting some amount of autonomy. The poor foreign policy part can also be included. Let me paraphrase it below and you can add it in a way that meets FA standards or at least approaches it. You may add : "The decline of the empire, according to Stein, was a weak foreign policy and a growing decentralization that started even during its peak. This gave vassal states such as Ikkeri, Tanjavur, Madurai and Gingee nominal autonomy". A good place to add it is after the current citation #37, though some copy editing may be required.Mayasandra (talk) 13:26, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

--Reply--

Mayasandra (talk) Thank you for your suggestions. I was thinking of creating a different section "Decline of the Empire". This was to for better documentation of the article. I agree that some of the information is available but it is scattered. I will not edit the page unless asked to do so. Having said that, please look into my suggestion of adding a section on decline and let me know your views on the same. Worldciv17 VN (talk) 10:36, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

This is my suggestion. We can create "sub-sections" with in the existing 'History' section as it reads. They are: "pre-Vijayanagara" or "early 14th century", "ascendancy" and "defeat and decline". Whatever you feel needs to be added into the last sub-section called "defeat and decline", you may first write it here on the talk page, giving citations in brackets like this (Stein (2003), p.xy). Let me and other users review it for flow and accuracy. Then we can add it to the corresponding sub-section. How does that sound?Mayasandra (talk) 15:54, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
I can help with the copy editing here on the talk page before adding it to the main article.Pied Hornbill (talk) 16:16, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
This would be great Pied Hornbill (talk) and Mayasandra (talk). Let me work on it and then we can get the sub-section ready. Excited to see such great work you people are doing. I am excited that I am getting this opportunity to contribute :) Worldciv17 VN (talk) 18:22, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
The current "defeat and decline" portion (last 3 paragraphs of the History section) has 12 lines. We can add another 6 lines, merge & copy edit as required and keep it very summary like for the main article. If Worldciv17 VN has a lot more data from his/her sources, then we can have a separate article created as well called Decline of the Vijayanagara empire and do an include somewhere in the main article.Mayasandra (talk) 19:59, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

───────────────────────── I do not see "decline" as an appropriate term for what happened after the Battle of Tallikota. Rather it was transformed into a decentralised power structure. What the empire represented, i.e., a Hindu-dominant, but tolerant, militaristic, aristocratic, Islamicate rulership persisted well into the 19th century. The British Empire got established under its noses and then overthrew it. So, I am not confident that a section called the "Decline of the empire" is appropriate. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:27, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

I agree with you Kautilya3 (talk). I just thought decentralising of power can be interpretated as decline of empire. But no worries, I think this can be resolved now and thank you very much for all your inputs. Worldciv17 VN (talk) 18:24, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Gertrude Stein,p112
  2. ^ Gertrude Stein(2003),p121
  3. ^ Gertrude Stein(2003),p132

Merge[edit]

I propose to redirect Rama Raju to this page, since it doesn't have any sourced content. -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 00:06, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Why do you want to add unsourced content to a featured article? You can source it if you wish or nominate it for AfD if there isn't enough sourced material. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:59, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
I don't want to add any unsourced content. I'll just go ahead with redirect, and see if there's any revert. -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 13:15, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Please explain the reason for this merge/redirect? This article "Rama Raju" needs to be deleted. There is no King from this empire called Rama Raju (not the same as Rama Raya, Raju being a caste name). As such, how does the article on a person re-direct to an empire?Pied Hornbill (talk) 13:36, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
I have no issues. Go ahead. -- Pankaj Jain Capankajsmilyo (talk · contribs · count) 14:35, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
Concur with Kautilya3 and Pied Hornbill. The merge proposal makes no sense, nor did the original unreferenced stub article created in 2006. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 02:09, 4 May 2017 (UTC)

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Corrections ...[edit]

(1) Please note that the correct term is Mastigallu (Maastigallu) which is a stone that memorializes the woman who undertakes Sati. This term is derived from Maha+Sati+Kallu (respectively meaning Grand or Big + Woman who has undertaken Sati + Stone). This is a generic term, with the referent being the person who immolated herself (presumably) along with the dead husband (which is what Sati is about). So, it is possible to state, this is a Maastigallu of Tayavva, say, who died after her husband Sangappa died.

(2) There is absolutely no term in this context called Sati-virakal. The author must have confused the Viragallu (or Veeragallu) which is a celebratory stone memorial for a Veera (the brave) who lays down his life in the line of duty protecting his king, commander, master, etc in a war or similar other circumstance. Veeras (plural of Veera) are young men committed to the cause of protecting the powerful functionaries of the Kingdom (King, Commander, Paleyagara, Naada Prabhu, etc.) at any cost with the belief that life can be given up, if necessary, to achieve Veeramarana (a brave death) that places them in Swarga (heaven) rather than accept defeat.

There are thousands of Veeragallu's and Mastigallu's spread across present day Karnataka, Andhra, Telengana, Maharashtra, Odissa and Tamil Nadu.

To summarize, Mastigallu is for women and Veeragallu for men.

Please set right the incorrect reference given alongside: "About fifty inscriptions have been discovered in Vijayanagara which are called Satikal (Sati stone) or Sati-virakal (Sati hero stone)"

Use of Tamil as a common language[edit]

I quote the following from the Wikipedia page of Vijayanagaram empire:

"Kannada, Telugu and Tamil had been used in their respective regions of the empire. Over 7000 inscriptions (Shasana) including 300 copper plate inscriptions (Tamarashasana) have been recovered, almost half written in Kannada, the remaining in Telugu, Tamil and Sanskrit."

"Though much of the Tamil literature from this period came from Tamil speaking regions ruled by the feudatory Pandya who gave particular attention on the cultivation of Tamil literature, some poets were patronised by the Vijayanagara kings. Svarupananda Desikar wrote an anthology of 2824 verses, Sivaprakasap-perundirattu, on the Advaita philosophy. His pupil the ascetic, Tattuvarayar, wrote a shorter anthology, Kurundirattu, that contained about half the number of verses. Krishnadevaraya patronised the Tamil Vaishnava poet Haridasa whose Irusamaya Vilakkam was an exposition of the two Hindu systems, Vaishnava and Shaiva, with a preference for the former."

Now, of course, all languages were only used in their respective regions. That's no reason to not include a particular langy that was prevalent during that time. Certainly, Kannada wasn't used as extensively as Tamil in Tamil Nadu. Duh!

Now here are the following questions that I asked to Pied Hornbill, a Wikipedia editor, but he hasn't yet responded to them, as was expected. He's the one who's been reverting any reference to Tamil in the common languages field. And I pose the same set of questions here to all editors.

A) Hornbill asserts that "common languages" only refers to the "used by the seat of power." He hasn't explained what he means by that, as yet. The remnants of the Vijayanagaram empire, the Nayakas, widely used Tamil. Vellore, one of the capitals of Vijayanagaram empire, (if capitals are seats of power, by your definition) is in Tamil Nadu. Several inscriptions of the empire at the SriRangam temple are in Tamil. King Krishnadevaraya's preceptor Lakshmi Kumara Thathachariar was Tamil. And there are other inscriptions and literature of the Vijayanagaram empire which are in Tamil. So this rhubarb about common languages being "only used by the seat of power" is something I fail to understand. Who has said so? Is there such a rule instituted by Wikipedia?

B) When Tamil authors were patronised, as is acknowledged in the page itself, from which I have quoted, and when yet Pied claims rather astutely that Tamil was used only in Tamil Nadu and not elsewhere, as if Kannada were more widely used in Andhra Pradesh, why include Sanskrit? It certainly was far more marginally used than any other Dravidian language. And furthermore, why is there even a question of Malayalam being used, when no one has produced any proof of it?

C) In Shilhara Dynasty's page in which Pied had undone several edits made by some people claiming that Marathi was a common language. He never said over there that it wasn't widely used or the language of the "seat of power" or "an administrative language." And now the claim is back. No one has done nothing about it. And guess what, the citations affixed only contains allusions to and pictures of several Marathi "inscriptions." Pied once said that inscriptions cannot be used as citations and had also a while ago stupidly asserted that there's not a single inscription of Shilhara dynasty in Marathi. And now that's fallen flat on his face. That apart. Why hasn't he or anyone else here erased that? I do not know. Why have such double standard of proof? When inscriptions cannot be accepted as citations for the use of a particular language on one page, why accept it in the other? Same is the case with the page about the Satvahana dynasty. So why is all this happening? Should all Wikipedia pages be edited the way he thinks it must be? Then why open it to contributions by the public. Are they your servants? We are here to devote our intellectual resources gratuitously. If we are going to be treated so rudely by people like him, then no point in calling Wikipedia a public website. Hell with it! Chippy pest (talk) 09:12, 2 June 2019 (UTC)