Talk:Virgin birth of Jesus/Archive 2

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I looked up parthenos in Liddell & Scott, btw, and "virgin" isn't the only meaning. See additions to Virgin birth (arguments). Jacquerie27 18:59 May 12, 2003 (UTC)

LOL. Weren't you reluctant to use Liddell & Scott when I first mentioned them, since they surveyed the general usage of words and not just how they were used in the Bible? Never mind. Did you see the definitions someone gave on the Virgin Birth discussion page? It appears to be from a modern edition of a Greek dictionary that includes meanings prior to the middle ages. Should we incorporate that information as well? I haven't compared the two in detail, it may be redundant. Wesley 21:25 May 12, 2003 (UTC)

I had added some of the varient meanings of parthenos to the Virgin Birth page, which Jacquerie27 appropriately incorporated into this page. My source was Geza Vermes. The list of definitions from the modern Greek dictionary, on the VB talk page, is consistent with Vermes' account. Nevertheless, I hesitate to add them to this article because they come from a modern Greek dictionary. The issue at hand is how people used the word in the first or second centuries CE. Ideally, we should stick to research on that period. Slrubenstein

You're probably right about the modern Greek dictionary. I would extend the period under consideration to between the second century BC to the second century CE, so as to include usage at the time when the Septuagint was translated. But realistically speaking, it probably makes no difference at all to the usage of parthenos, or if it does matter a hair either way the references we have won't be that specific. Wesley

I had added the definitions from the "modern" Greek dictionary myself. Actualy "parthenos" is still in use in Greek language today but the Papyrus dictionary is a 61-volume-one that studies Greek language from antiquity till today. The uses of the word I listed are the ones that came to use before the Middle Ages. Most of them are out of use by now so they do not depict current use of the word . In Modern Greek it has been replaced by the word "parthena". User: Dimadick

I have quoted from several well respected translations to show that many Christians concede that the Hebrew in Isaiah 7:14 means "young woman" rather than "virgin". I do not think it is accurate to say that the dispute about the meaning of the word is between the Christians on one side and the Jews and the Skeptics on the other. Michael Glass

From the page

The Mishnah and the Tosefta use the word bethulah to refer to a young woman who has not yet menstruated (even though she may have had sexual intercourse).

does someone have a source for this? Orthodox Jews use a marriage document that obligates the husband to provide for his wife and stipulates that she receive a divorce settlement should the marriage end in divorce. In that document the woman is described as a betulah...meaning virgin, certainly not meaning not yet menstruated. OneVoice 19:43, 22 Jan 2004 (UTC)