Talk:Voiced alveolo-palatal sibilant

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Catalan ajut[edit]

I really don't think that 'ajut' sounds [əʑut], but [əʒut]. I find difficult to articulate de 'u' after that [ʑ], being easier (and the common way, I think) a [ʒ]. Willing to know somebody's opinion about this... —Preceding unsigned comment added by MDYarma (talkcontribs) 15:00, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

This sort of thing is brought up from time to time. The distinction between [ʑ] and [ʒ] is subtle and native speakers of English and Catalan can't perceive it. Sources on Catalan say that Catalan postalveolars are alveolo-palatal rather than palato-alveolar. See Catalan phonology. — Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 18:38, 11 November 2009 (UTC)
I begin to think both Recasens and you had a phoniatric problem... Perique des Palottes (talk) 07:49, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Only when I speak Catalan. — Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 18:45, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
So, do you speak Catalan with Chinese accent? Please. (talk) 15:58, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
No, I speak Catalan with an American accent. Luckily, I'm not basing anything on my own pronunciation of Catalan. — Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 17:23, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Which might be why you insist in redoing errors in orthography and phonetics of Catalan examples. Still waiting from you the exact reference showing Catalan postalveolars (Carbonell and Llisterri, JIPA, 1992) are any different to the ones in the neighbouring languages. Perique des Palottes (talk) 08:15, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure which errors in orthography you speak of, but the phonetic issue is not one that I can address in the immediate future unless someone else can get access to the relevant article. I personally cannot and can only glean from it what others citing it say. — Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi] 08:56, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
I can access those cited articles and still cannot see why these Catalan sounds should be any different from the Italian ones (as in sciopero = strike), and instead be like the Chinese ones (as in xīngqīliù = 'saturday'). Any native Catalan speaker in contact with Chinese speakers can notice the difference.Perique des Palottes (talk) 10:50, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

I got and read Recasens 1990 article Articulatory characteristics of palatals in JIPA 18, 1990, pp 267-280. There is no reference to Catalan sounds being other than postalveolars (same as Occitan and Italian ones). Our postalveolars [ʃ tʃ] are described with references to examples from Catalan, among others like Italian and French (as could be expected). Your alveolopalatals [ɕ tɕ] are described with references to examples from Polish and Mandarin Chinese (as could be expected - no Catalan here). Maybe there has been some misinterpretation of Recasens article here in Wikipedia, or someone is citing someone that thinks that is citing Recasens? Who introduced the [ɕ tɕ] in Catalan related articles in the first place? Perique des Palottes (talk) 13:38, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Russian жжёшь[edit]

I think it was the worst of potential examples for [ʑː] in Russian:

Language Word IPA Meaning Notes
Russian жжёшь [ʑːoʂ] 'you (sg) burn' found only in the geminate of ж

so I replace it. (I'm a native speaker of Russian.) Although for some other cases of orthographic жж or зж I can accept both pronunciations: [ʑː] and [ʐː], for this word I accept only [ʐːoʂ].--Imz 23:18, 22 October 2007 (UTC)