Talk:Wawel

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Main[edit]

This should be the MAIN ARTICLE. After it grows to big, then expand subarticles. Otherwhise it will be a collection of stubs in a series, not very impressive. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 13:10, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No, panowie, do roboty. I am not going to work on this alone. Collaboration implies a group work :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 10:53, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Chakra[edit]

Lonely Planet Poland says Wawel is the location of one of Lord Shiva's 7 chakra and a spiritual center for Hindus. Esoteric thinkers come to meditate in the ruins of St. Gereon's Church (the exact site) and the Indian government delegation specifically asked "to be left alone inside." Brutannica 18:23, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

That's suprising. Would you have a reference for that?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  19:39, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

duplication[edit]

What's the difference between 'Wawel' and 'Wawel Hill' articles ? They should be merged. --Jotel (talk) 08:54, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Wawel[edit]

I just would like to mention that Wawel is not an architectual complex as was written in the text, even if many people comite that mistake, Wawel is only the name of the hill on which the casel is located. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.58.94.82 (talk) 19:36, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Please note the distinction between the contemporary, and the narrower terminology used mostly in the past: "Wawel" is a lot more than the "hill" in what we know today as Wawel. It is an internationally recognized toponym. --Poeticbent talk 16:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Wawel - name of the hill[edit]

There are several explanations of the origin of Wawel name but there is no explicit answer. The first known was recorded in „Kronika Wielkopolska” the Polish chronicle written in XIII-th century and it states that „ It is the swelling on human's neck”. The other known explanation of the word "Wawel" is – the hill between swampy valleys. Some linguists explain name of the hill as the ravine. The word Wawel in Vedic Snskrit means the sky. There is also supposition that the Wawel name is of Celtic origin and is connected with the name of British meritorious general Archibald Percival Wavell (1883-1950). The name Wavell may arise from the name of place from which his family was descended. Andrzej Zagórowski. December 2009. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.24.12.46 (talk) 13:11, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

All of this could be put in the new section Etymology of the name Wawel in the bottom of the article, providing that the active links to reliable sources are also included. --Poeticbent talk 17:34, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Merge from Wawel Hill[edit]

This was suggested long ago, but never really discussed and it's high time to come back to this. "Wawel Hill" and "Wawel" are really the same thing and there's no need to have two separate articles. Beacuse Wawel Hill is much shorter and says little that isn't already covered in more detail at Wawel, I suggest merging the former into the latter. It doesn't really matter if the merged article is entitled Wawel or Wawel Hill just as long as there's only one and the other redirects to it. — Kpalion(talk) 19:06, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Belated support. On pl wiki pl:Wzgórze Wawelskie redirects to Wawel anyway. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 15:30, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Large copy-edit/rewrite[edit]

I am trying to make this page more readable/understandable and less 'babelfishy'. However, some of the text is just too ambiguous. Does anyone know if my understanding here is correct  Giano  08:30, 27 April 2013 (UTC):

  1. After a fire in 1595 when the northeast part of the castle burned down, king Sigismund III Vasa decided to rebuild it under the direction of the architect Giovanni Trevano. The Senator Stairs and the fireplace in the Bird Room date from this period.
  • The timing of this enquiry is a bit off at the moment... to use a parallel expression. I will wait for the fiery RFA to end before trying to help. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 17:53, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
Not to trouble yourself Poeticbent; I see Poland has 38 million people still resident - I'm sure many of them speak perfect English, edit/read Wikipedia and will be able to answer any questions I might have. Thanks for your interest.  Giano  10:40, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Needless to say, not a one of the 38 million Poles can guarantee the positive outcome of your endless cosmetic changes, some of which are quite peculiar like the so-called "Recent history" which in fact is over century old, or the overabundance of monster maps one of which you yourself uploaded. I will get to that once you're finished, Poeticbent talk 19:10, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Two actually! Never mind; what a pity that when you were editing it so often (10 edits), you never realised how poor it was and it was barely English. (Personal attack removed)  Giano  19:18, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
In fact, Poeticbent, if you know so much: why don't you get off your ass,do some proper research and writing and make Wawel Castle and Wawel Cathedral into proper pages? For such important symbols of your country, both pages are badly written stubs and a disgrace - and quite frankly with your sniping, so are you.  Giano  19:39, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Let's assume AGF here, kids. We are all good content creators here, let's leave the wikipolitics aside and try to improve the article. Simple, clean, neat. K? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 15:22, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Giano's work on the article actually has been very good. Thanks for removing that magic Chakra crap btw!. On the other hand the dragon maybe should get a mention. And yes, your understanding is correct.Volunteer Marek 18:13, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Volunteer Marek, I have replaced the dragon, but he looks a little lonely on his own; his new section has room for some other legends etc - if you know of any. You are right, a little light relief amongst the dry historical facts and architecture is no bad thing. I'm glad you approve of the removal of the Chakra rubbish - I believe it has a page of its own somewhere, but I have not bothered to look.  Giano  09:10, 28 April 2013 (UTC)
Dragon-wise, there's an easy DYK for someone to do based on pl:Smok Wawelski (rzeźba). I've added it to my to-do list, but I won't cry if someone beats me to it :) PS. Damn. The Dragon now breaths fire to fulfill SMS request. If that ain't progress... :> --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 15:32, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
Chakra and Dragon again[edit]
  • There is no great need for writing about the Chakra (neither about the the Dragon) in the Wawel article, (also in Polish version these two things are not described in the main article), but - according to Wiki linking policies, there is need to place links both to Wawel Dragon and Wawel Chakra.
    • Because any links to Wawel Chakra disappeared, I put it into "See also" section.
  • NPOV requires neither to treat the Chakra as "magical rubish" nor the Dragon as "childish nonsense".
The dragon is loved by children, the Chakra is loved by new-agers. There are many controvercy about the Chakra, but it is not the task of Wikipedia to ban the controversial "thing", but to neutrally describe it.
  • So, I accept removing text about the Chakra, but in my opinion
    • it is better either to retain both (Dragon and Chakra) or to remove both - the two legends should be treated similarly
    • even if - for some reason - we keep only the Dragon - which is the present status of the article - the section History until the mid-11th-century is definitely not a good place for it. It is not a good idea to put myths into "serious history" timeline.

Jaceknow (talk) 21:15, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Clickable map of Wawel[edit]

Pl wiki has the nice pl:Szablon:Mapa budynków na Wawelu. I could translate it, but almost everything on it would currently be red linked on en Wiki. Anyone interested in writing a bunch of Wawel DYKs? Poeticbent? VM? Maybe I could get Dr. B. to help out this. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 15:26, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

That is exactly the sort of thing I have been looking for and would be far better than the existing map which I stole from Polish Wikipedia and then had to try and translate with babelfish - thank you. I also suspect there are still some ambiguities in the text which I have not correctly interpreted from the somewhat garbled aand tortured previous text.  Giano  15:31, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
PS: It would take too long to knock out a few stubs to fill the red links; I did a similar think with Winter Palace, but do they all need to be separate pages anyway?  Giano  15:34, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
I'll do the map within 48h as my next project then. Busy day RL, and I am coming dawn with the cold. I'll comment on the notability of the links when I am done reviewing the map. Tentatively, they are probably all notable, through to about the same degree as, hmmm, the Category:University of Pittsburgh buildings or such. Majority of sources would only be in Polish, most likely, and many offline, the usual pain, as Google doesn't make most of those visible. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 15:34, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
I can help, but honestly my knowledge of architecture extends to being able to tell a Doric column from a Corinthian column and that's about it.Volunteer Marek 16:03, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
I meant to write: it would not take too long to write some stubs, but if they are just towers and/or ramparts etc do they all need a separate page of their own?  Giano  18:11, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
There's about 27 links on that map (quick count). About a third to a half are "just towers" or just minor living quarters, for example pl:Wieża Jordanka na Wawelu. On the other hand, some of the links could probably qualify for their own article, for example pl:Baszta Senatorska na Wawelu. It's a judgement call.Volunteer Marek 18:18, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
I usually judge these things seeing if there's more than one different image/view and 20 sensible referenced lines available? At the winter Palace it was worth doing because as rooms of the Hermitage they are full of interesting items and exhibits which can be added at later date, but from what I can see here, for the most part the interesting items have been taken to the Hermitage, Vienna and Berlin which is unfortunate fact which can't be glossed over.  Giano  18:31, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
  • I've tried to translate one of the articles, it is now in my sandbox, but it needs (probably major) language improvement. Perhaps one can improve it. Please note that on the discussed map not the building, but the museum located in it (described as muzueum katedralne) is hyperlinked: the museum probaly should have a separate article. Laforgue (talk) 19:01, 29 April 2013 (UTC) And the museum has an article - Muzeum Katedralne im. Jana Pawła II na Wawelu, I didn't notice it before :). Laforgue (talk) 19:29, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
That's a great start; I gave the JP2 museum a couple of lines in the page today [1]. Do you want me to tidy it up in your sandbox?  Giano  20:10, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
That would be very kind of you, besides language issues I don't know also en-wiki conventions. Laforgue (talk) 20:23, 29 April 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure anyone understands the "en-wiki conventions"; breaking them is half the fun of being here. I'll have an edit in your sandbox later.  Giano  20:24, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

User:Laforgue/sandbox seems good enough to be moved into mainspace, unless we want to DYK it. This would be nice, but would require inline cites first. I'll start the map soon at Template:Wawel map. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:55, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

First draft of Template:Wawel map done, thanks VM for help. Not sure if more names shouldn't be translated...? Any red links we can fix? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:32, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
The map is great - well done Piotrus; but is there anyway it can be placed where the existing mao is? So that it has text to the side of it. I don't know how to do that. On other pages with similar template maps it works OK, but it won't here which is odd.  Giano  07:04, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
Just as a random observation, I'd remove the white "rocks" from the legend. There really don't seem to be enough of them to warrant it. Are there any important "rocks" that need to be included? Volunteer Marek 02:45, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
Be bold :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:33, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
I quite like the idea of the rocks being there; it re-enforces the fact that the Wawel is on a rocky prominence/vantahge point. Incidentlly, is their no word that better describes it - citadel, bastide, fortress or even (date I suggest it) kremlin? it's just that it is a walled, defended community/settlement, so there must be a word that describes that which is applicable in Poland - from what I can see 'kremlin' is purely a Russian territorial word, is there no Polish equivalent?  Giano  07:00, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
Ok, rocks can stay. I think the phrase which I've heard about is more or less "castle complex" or something like that. Not very picturesque I guess. But usually when a Polish person says "Wawel" they're referring to the entire complex, and that's understood. If you're talking about the castle itself you say "Wawel castle". I'm not sure how many other "castle complexes" of this sort there are in Poland (like Russian "kremlins"). Palaces, yes, but I think this is the only "castle complex" (Malbork Castle might come close but that's like two castles adjoined together).Volunteer Marek 14:16, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

English language sources[edit]

There are not many. Here's what I see:

Wow. This is much worse then I expected. There's not a single book, book chapter on academic article on Wawel in English I can dig out. Granted, I spent just ~10minutes, but... anyone can do better? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 07:55, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Not really: Amongst about 1,000 books on architecture and related subjects in Italian and English; I have one book that has a small chapter (in English) on Wawel Castle; it's Great Palaces (Wawel Castle by Stefan Kozakiewicz). London: Hamlyn Publishing Group Ltd (1969). ISBN 0-600-01682-X.) I've already added most of what it has; there is a little more, but that probably should be saved for the Wawel Castle page itself - and it is a very little. Probably published before half of us were born.  Giano  09:39, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

GA and FA?[edit]

I think that if one of our Polish speaking friends could find some more references for some of the facts here, this page could be a GA or even an FA. As I see it most of these facts which are unreferenced are pretty obvious, but there are a lot of pedants at GA and FA. Personally, I don't see if matters if the reffs are linked to Polish works/books if English ones are not available and I'm pretty sure that the FA and GA rules agree with me - one can't discriminate against a page because it's not been written up by the English peaking world.  Giano  16:57, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. All it would take is for somebody to go to a Polish library, get a book on Wawel, and spend few hours referencing things. I have an excuse - I won't be in Poland till late June. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:47, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps you could tag the facts that you think need a reference; I am prepared to take most of them on trust, but as you have considerable experience at GA and FA you will know which ones we need to be looking for.  Giano  18:00, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
Well, for GA I'd say every fact needs a reference, so I'd prefer to to fact-spam the article :> --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:34, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
I can see what I can source/dig out as well but I'm going to be extremely busy in the near future.
BTW, Giano, there is an English language book (though by Polish authors) on Polish Baroque [2]. I'd order it through inter library loan but it does not appear to be in any library remotely close by: [3]. If you, or someone else has access to a similar system like ILL in Europe it looks worth checking out.Volunteer Marek 00:23, 20 May 2013 (UTC)