|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Wedding photography article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.
|This page was nominated for deletion on 21 December 2005. The result of the discussion was keep.|
|WikiProject History of photography|
- 1 Copyright issues section
- 2 External links
- 3 Photography article suggestion
- 4 Wedding Photography
- 5 Why is wedding photography so expensive
- 6 All the above
- 7 Images
- 8 East Asian Wedding Photography
- 9 Wedding Photojournalist
- 10 Potential additional text (suggestions for couples)
- 11 copyright in Australia
- 12 File:Dmitri-Markine-Wedding.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion
- 13 Gallery
- 14 Thank you Deli nk - Trying to make the suggestion the right way
Copyright issues section
The Copyright issues and Albums, prints, and other products sections have some overlap. My opinion would be that licensing issues are worthy of their own section. Beechhouse (talk) 12:45, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
I think the external links need to be removed as they are spam. (Kappa65 23:05, 28 September 2007 (UTC))
- WPPI doesn't add anything to the page and could be removed, NAPP is irrelevant and could go too. WPJA may have some interest? Beechhouse (talk) 12:45, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
- NAPP has been removed and I have removed WPPI. I have added an external link to some tips on technique instead. Beechhouse (talk) 22:40, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Why are individuals deciding what links are relevant and which should be removed? WPPI is extremely relevant to wedding photography. A link to FolioSnap has also come and gone serveral times. Who's running this circus?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 11:19, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
- When you say that it has come, you mean that you have added it. And I removed it. Why am I deciding that it's removed? Good question! Thanks to my understanding of this page. Please read it carefully. If you disagree with it, please express your disagreement on its talk page. -- Hoary (talk) 11:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Photography article suggestion
Can I make a couple of suggestions regarding this article?
I think a reference to contracts would be useful in this article, particularly since (If I recall correctly) that in some countries, copyright of photographic imagery belongs to the person who actually commissioned the work. (I know, I know it doesn't sound right, but that's what we were told at school - which was why the contracts were so important to the fore-mention pricing model).
I think common expectations of the photographer would really enhance this article too. I.e. what kind of photos are often requested (family!!), dress codes of the photographer and the role of the assistant etc. etc.
Also, while I believe the statement of a reduced exposure latitude is true, I would double check the one that regarded the resolution of film VS the digital format. I've spoken to a few industry experts in Australia who say that high-end 35mm sized sensors are getting up to the quality of Medium format film.
I am not a regular wikipedian so I don't know what's the appropriate protocol for a newby.
- That would be original research for the most part, unless you can find sources to cite. 22.214.171.124 14:18, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
The link to the history of wedding photography goes to a wedding photographers site. Its not well written and doesnt add anything but link juice. Please remove www.dreamtimeimages.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 19:25, 27 June 2008 (UTC)
This article was written from a photographer's point of view. It would be good to have a section on what bride's concerns are as well.
At this time, the best digital cameras with a full sized sensor that is the same size as 35mm film are in some ways as good as professional 35mm film, and in some ways (such as color accuracy) slightly better than 35mm film. As yet, the only way to get the kind of quality found in medium format film cameras is to get a medium format camera with a digital back. I say this based on tests recently performed by Popular Photography magazine comparing photographs taken with Canon's Mark II Ds digital camera (16 megapixels, approx. $8000) vs. photographs taken with Canon's top professional film camera EOS-1v with Kodak professional film.
Some mention should be made of Dennis Reggie who, during the 1980's developed wedding photojournalism. Along with a move toward 'natural' in other areas of society (such as in natural food or natural looking makeup) he stopped doing traditional poses and instead focused on capturing the event as it happened with a minimum of interference from the photographer, much like a news/sports photojournalist.
I'll have to write more at a later time as I need to get to sleep.
Why is wedding photography so expensive
I thought a note on this subject would be helpful for brides planning their weddings. Firstly, I am a professional wedding photographer, and I am often asked that question. I think it's important to note that most professional wedding photographers have been photographers for quite some time, and as such have aquired skills and competencies over a period of years that reflect their vision and artistry. In many cases the professional photographer has aquired degrees specifically in photography, or a related field, giving them required knowledge in camera work, exposure, posing, lighting, and a myriad of other skills related to business administration, marketing, and many other areas necessary to running a succsessful photography business. Good wedding photographers don't just happen, the skills required to do such a job are vast. The wedding photographer carries a tremendous responsibility on the wedding day, there are many moments to capture as well as group and family photos that must be shot for the couple's parents and grand parents, and all on a day that can't be repeated. Anyone who thinks that wedding photography is easy has never done it. I hear all the time from other photographers who do not shoot weddings things such as: "I don't know how you do it, I shot one wedding for a friend and I wouldn't try it again." In addition to all the things the wedding photographer must be aware of, he or she must also provide the creative artistry and skill necessary to develop a wedding book that presents the wedding day in a beautifuly artistic manner that looks as good as a layout in Modern Bride magazine. Not only does the good wedding photographer need to possess all of the skills and abilities mentioned above, he or she must be using the latest professional photographic equipment available. From cameras and lenses to lighting equipment, professional camera gear is extremely expensive. A good studio these days may well spend six or seven thousand dollars on just one camera body. In addition, all the lenses required for top of the line images will also cost the photographer thousands of dollars. The last thing I would like to say about the expense of good wedding photography is this: A couple who came to see me about photographing their wedding had done so with a relatively little time left before their wedding, and waited quite some time before hiring a photographer. Their statement to me when asked why they had put off hiring a photographer was this: "Well, we had to get all the important stuff done first." This couple appeared to have made photography of their wedding a very low priority. This is puzzeling to me because the food and cake gets eaten, the flowers wilt and die, but the images of that very special and important day will live on for a great many years after the wedding. I know of couples that have spent a thousand or more on the wedding cake, three or four thousand on the dress and $10,000 for food, but only a thousand for the photography. If there is one area you do NOT skimp on, it's the photography
All the above
All the concerns above are worth noting. However, the difficulty adding this information is in referencing your sources. Wikipedia doesn’t allow original research, no matter how expert you might be on the topic. Basically you can only add information based on credible external sources. So if any of you can find and footnote your sources adequately, you are free to add the information as suggested above. --Mactographer 11:23, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
- P.S. I find it somewhat ironic that Wikipedia requires original images, or at least public domain or otherwise copyright free images, yet disallows original writing on the same subject matter. Go figure...
--Mactographer 11:27, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
- Wikipedia requires original writing - you can't simply copy and paste other people's work - but bars original research. It is different! -- SiobhanHansa 21:29, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
The images on this page seem to be mainly examples of wedding photography - it would be great if there could also be some images that illustrate the profession more. For instance, a picture of a standard wedding photographers kit, one that shows a full studio, a picture of a photographer taking a particularly exacting photo, etc. Images that show the activity talked about in the article rather than simply the product. -- SiobhanHansa 21:29, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
There is an offer of a huge range of diffrent styles of photography, always worth looking at, when we got married the photographer was great!
Every one will remember the "bad" photographer at your wedding, and never really recall the great ones, I know I remember them "bad" ones when I have been to weddings before! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 22:24, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
East Asian Wedding Photography
This article seems focused on western or perhaps even just American wedding photography. In some east Asian cultures the wedding photography includes a session at a studio and usually some outdoor shots at a scenic location. The bride wears a number of different dresses during the photo shoot and the groom usually changes a bit too (even if just the tie and cummerbund). Anyone know enough about this to include it in the article? Or is there another article about it somewhere that I'm unaware of?
Here's a link to some information to show what I'm talking about. 
I am looking for some critique or suggestions on the wikipedia article about Wedding Photojournalist. If anyone would like to visit this page, I would really like any input. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aveneman (talk • contribs) 22:40, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
Potential additional text (suggestions for couples)
M304350813 added V2 Photographic Organization which appeared to be a site for a specific studio. This same link was added by 184.108.40.206 a few days ago, and removed as SPAM. These two users are probably the same.
The following text was added to the article by 220.127.116.11 (same IP as above). It might make for a possible addition, but needs editing to get to the level to put in the article:
Wedding photography in the common note
1. Do not shoot wedding day, setting the water spray, do not make-up, men need to shave the beard, women need to shave the armpit hair. 2. Do not wear valuable items (such as necklaces, earrings, etc.), so as to avoid unnecessary losses . 3. the basic process of wedding photography for your reference: appointment - to meet communication - development of production projects - Payment - shoot - look like - make - pick. 4. wedding photography before the make-up, modeling, clothing, dress have opinions , please communicate with the service staff. 5. shooting day, please do not convince the family, accompanied, in order to avoid waiting, filming emotional impact of the two, to maintain a happy state of mind. 6, make an appointment with a good one, if not paid in full shall be with a good balance. 7, bring their own bottles and invisible security underwear. 8, for LG to prepare the pair of dark and light-colored socks, wear black shoes to go. 9, after 8 pm Do not drink water, so the eyes will be swollen the next day, at night try to sleep early. 10, own a pair of comfortable high heels (you can wear to go). 11, open body of clothes to wear to the studio. 12, comes with the camera, you can shoot Highlights. 13, with some chocolate to go, you can add physical, makeup will not get flowers. 14, flowers in the studio is an additional fee, but the flowers are to be equipped with clothing, with or without MM your consideration. 15, if holding the flowers want to use flowers, then please bring, studio's hands are fake flowers 16, before signing the contract, we must strive for better techniques photographers, photographers directly determines the level of picture quality. 17, an experienced guide customers to put on a good photographer, good posture and expression, but the photographers do not focus on technology in general, or the level difficult to achieve. So shoot, no matter what level of photographer, must maintain a relaxed and smiling, took out the best performance, this photo shoot will have the best effect.
copyright in Australia
The paragraph stating that in Australia "copyright law dictates" that the client owns wedding photographs is highly misleading, and could well lead to tears later from a bride perusing this article. I suggest that, in the absence of a long explanation, the entire para be removed.
If you actually chase references 7 and 8 (8 is a dead link, but the relevant PDF can still be found at www.copyright.org.au), you see the situation is more complicated and in practice similar to other countries. Copyright law doesn't "dictate" anything, but sets the default if it is unspecified in the contract. There would be few or no contracts like that now. Guests own copyright in what they shoot, because they are not paid. The default for paid work was most likely chosen to ease the transition from the old pre-1998 "work for hire" rules, so that contracts would be consistent across the law change.
- I, also, had issues with that statement. I have updated the text to be more generic.Makyen (talk) 07:01, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
File:Dmitri-Markine-Wedding.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion
An image used in this article, File:Dmitri-Markine-Wedding.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion for the following reason: All Wikipedia files with unknown copyright status
Don't panic; you should have time to contest the deletion (although please review deletion guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Dmitri-Markine-Wedding.jpg)
- @SpiritedMichelle: Galleries of indiscriminate images are discouraged, so your gallery has been tagged prior to deletion. --Elektrik Fanne 16:19, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
Thank you Deli nk - Trying to make the suggestion the right way
|An edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.|
First timer here - who is familiar with this topic as I'm a wedding photographer myself as well as print competition judge and familiar with the industry.
I'm probably not posting this right, but I'm copying my edits for section Professional Organizations to clarify - note these were reverted to the original already by Deli nk
So that there is no awkwardness about my background or conflict of interest I'm familiar with this topic because of the following.
I hold the Master of Photography degree, Photographic Craftsman degree & Certified Professional Photographer Certification from PPA.
I also served two years as the President of our local guild (chapter) in Dallas, so I understand the local, state, district (region) and national levels of the organization and also competition.
I have competed in PPA's International Print Competition (IPC) and have judged on the lower levels.
Within WPPI, I have participated as an educator/speaker, print competition judge and entrant for 16x20 "The Annual" as well as the 8x10 competitions for many years.
I hold the title of Double Master of WPPI.
I'm also one of the 3 named co-founders of WPPI-C - the first of it's kind certification for wedding & portrait photographers founded in 2015 in conjunction with the New York Institute of Photography.
WPPI-C Program official web page
I have also presented at SWPP in the UK convention, judged and entered print competition.
Within the SWPP, I hold my Fellowship in wedding photography
http://www.swpp.co.uk/qualify-Fellow.htm - at the bottom of the page you will see my name Luke Edmonson listed
I'm also familiar with the BIPP, Australian Institute of Professional Photographers, MPA, WPJA and more than what is listed currently on the web page.
This info is only being provided to cite my "authority" or "familiarity" with this topic.
If you want to do additional research, instead of posting a link to my wedding photography website - just google my name.
In the About section and under Recognition is additional supporting information. I'm also happy to clarify anything as needed.
My hope is that my familiarity is not seen as a conflict of interest but as a resource. My previous edits were written in a manner that was neutral in my thinking, but I am open to suggestions and further refinement as necessary.
Currently, there is a link to PPA (Professional Photographers of America) but not to the other organizations. That seems very USA centric as the rest are either international or overseas organizations and their websites are very easy to find.
Specifically, WPPI http://www.wppionline.com is the homepage is the only one dedicated to Wedding & Portrait Photographers besides the Society of Wedding & Portrait Photographers (SWPP) http://www.swpp.co.uk in the UK.
The other websites not linked to are
National Photographic Society https://www.thenps.com
British Institute of Professional Photography http://www.bipp.com
Master Photographers Association http://www.masterphotographersassociation.co.uk
Professional Photographers of Canada https://www.ppoc.ca
All of these hold yearly conventions to train and educate their membership.
However, WPJA is listed as an organization while it's really more of an online community for lack of a better term. There is no physical presence and exists online only. Doesn't make it good or bad but membership does to provide the educational training & support of the recognized industry organizations above. http://www.wpja.com
Another similar group would be Fearless Photographers http://www.fearlessphotographers.com
Both the WPJA and Fearless run contests which are different than competitions.
Competitions typically require a physical print to be entered at least once throughout the year as well as have a panel of judges who are recognized experts and/or have received and passed training and qualifications.
The WPJA award is inaccurately written as recognizing the best in wedding photojournalism. They do give out an end of year photographer of the year award, but it is limited to their membership (pay to play) and not open to photographers outside of their organization.
They are the only one listed as giving awards - which seems biased as there are many wedding photography awards that can be won that are more difficult to achieve than WPJA.
WPPI's Annual print competition consists of separate divisions with multiple categories that the top print from each category compete head to head to determine the ultimate Grand Award winner.
IE> Bride and Groom Alone wedding day, Wedding Couple Together wedding day, Wedding Photojournalism, Wedding Details, Bridal Party / Family & Friends.
Print Competitions are typically open to anyone willing to pay the entry fee regardless of if they are members. Members may pay a discounted or preferential rate but not always is the entry fee different for members and non-members.
Members do typically have their points or scores over a certain threshold recorded to obtain degrees and accolades.
Organizations such as the Australian Institute of Professional Photographers require "seeding" at lower levels to qualify for the highest level of competition.
PPA has local, state and district competitions which can be entered but are not required before the highest level.
A print scoring over 80 at district level receives a seal and automatically is qualified for a merit at the highest level.
PPA has the International Print Competition (IPC) Judging workshop to qualify and train their judges. http://www.ppa.com/judgesworkshop#content
To be qualified to be a juror at the highest level you have to receive 5 successful evaluations from 4 different lower levels of competition after attending the workshop http://www.ppa.com/files/pdfs/apppojuror.pdf
WPPI's criteria for vetting their jurors is slightly different as they bring in judges from around the globe who are qualified.
Similarly, SWPP, BIPP, MPA rely primarily on their own internal qualification structure along with overseas jurors to provide a diverse, educational and experienced judging panel.
Photo contests like the WPJA and Fearless are built using the pay to play approach.
Membership fees provide for inclusion to the link directories and allow you to enter the regularly featured contests.
The international standard for photography competitions is 5 judges including alternates when there is a conflict of interest along with a chairman.
Photography contests typically rely on 3 or fewer judges to assign a score.
Another inaccuracy in the professional organizations text currently is the statement that "Standards and requirements for professional organizations vary, but membership often indicates a photographer is insured. "
That is not entirely true. Membership often includes limited equipment insurance with certain organizations but not all. PPA provides equipment insurance for instance.
15,000 is helpful to have but in reality doesn't cover the needs of an established working wedding photographer.
The current statement also leads the reader to conclude that a photographer is insured and can be interpreted as liability insurance.
The industry standard is $1 to 2 million for most event photographers to carry and venues may require being added as an additional insured before allowing a photography to work in the venue.
Liability insurance protects a bride & groom or others from accidents that may occur due to negligence as a result of failure by the photographer, their associates or representatives as well as equipment.
Indemnification insurance protects the photographer from catastrophic or major losses resulting from their negligence.
Finally, I'd propose you consider adding a section on Certifications and Qualifications.
Certification is different in that a 3rd party is the one overseeing the testing, implementation, and standards in conjunction with the organization.
Successful completion shows competence and confidence.
PPA's CPP program is more generalized to professional photography.
WPPI-C is WPPI's program that is specifically geared to wedding & portrait photographers.
As a co-founder, I've very familiar in what went into creating the program and making sure it was appropriate for a worldwide membership rather than being USA centric.
Qualifications are different in that they are earned for a body of work and over a period of time.
They range amongst the organizations but the basic premise is that eventually they have a terminal level.
The industry standard for that is a Fellowship.
A PPA Master Photographer degree takes 2 to 3 years to attain.
WPPI takes about 5 years to reach their Master of WPPI.
A Fellowship typically can only be sought by a photographer who has already earned the highest degrees within the structure and wants to submit for consideration a panel of representative work (typically 20-25 prints) along with an artist statement.
Not only is the work judged but also the mindset and thinking process. It is the most exacting standard you can be judged by and only those who have earned their Fellowship are qualified to be a juror.
A fellowship in wedding photography shows your expertise.
Thank you for you consideration on how to improve this page.
- Not done Practically all of your commentary above is unreferenced. To propose changes you need to specify your change in the form of "Please change [x] to [y]" along with a verifiable and reliable source for your change. Unfortunately, your personal knowledge is unacceptable no matter how authoritative you may be. --Elektrik Fanne 14:10, 3 June 2016 (UTC)