Talk:West Riding of Yorkshire
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Should this article be written in the past tense? The article says the West Riding of Yorkshire was abolished in 1974, yet the article is written almost entirely in present tense. Given this confusing mix of phrasing, I am still not 100 per cent sure whether it is referring to a former county or a current one. Can someone please clarify and change the tense of the article if necessary? Thanks. Road Wizard 20:04, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
The article refers to the ancient West Rising of Yorkshire, which has been in existence since the Viking invasion. The county council which bore its name (which was created in 1889) was abolished in 1974, not the Riding itself. I think the article maded this clear, but have emphasised it. KRC58 22:10, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarification. I have now altered the article to be in the past tense. The general reader like myself would expect an article about a historic county to be phrased in the past tense. Thanks again. Road Wizard 22:28, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Hi. This Ridings business is quite tricky. It IS (present tense) an historic county, to put it in the past tense implies it no longer is an historic county. It was used as the rough basis of an administrative county council in 1888, several centuries after it was created, which administrative county was abolished in 1974. The stickiness comes with the fact that both the ancient division (present tense) and County Council (past tense) shared the same name, and this article is covering both. In my post on the North Riding of Yorkshire discussion page I write,
Some of the confusions on this article, as in the West and East Riding articles, stem from the fact that the articles are doing two, and in the East's case three, jobs: 1) Covering the ancient divisions - around since Viking times and still used by many, 2) The Victorian created (1889-1974) county council areas, and 3) )in the East Riding's case) the new, active administrative region. They all have the same names, but are different things geographically, historically and intellectually. Short of creating discrete articles, I think it's best to be very clear and not to conflate them. KRC58 22:52, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I think this makes the point. I think even a general reader will appreciate that the West Riding IS an historic county. I took time over a re-edit of the article and thought carefully over the tense. I think it was more clear and accurate before, and would respectfully ask that you undo your edit. Many thanks. KRC58
- Actually, by definition anything that uses the term "historic" is referring to a subject in the past tense. However, if you are invoking the dreaded Traditional versus Ceremonial county debate then by all means change the page back. From the view point of a general reader, I still think it is a bad idea to phrase the article in the present tense when it describes all of the events as occurring in the past, so I won't change the article myself. After seeing the rampant silliness of the Traditional/Ceremonial/Administrative revert wars over on the Lancashire page, I am not going to let myself be bogged down in a similar war here. Road Wizard 23:38, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
Histroic: 2. esp. Forming an important part or item of history; noted or celebrated in history; having an interest or importance due to connexion with historical events. (The prevailing current sense.)
This is the OED's definition of historic. By definition historic is 'Formng (present continuous tense) an important part ... of histrory'. Grammatically I think this is clear. I equally don't find the traditional/ceremonial counties debate particulary edifying, but the entry for historic counties is in the present tense, so it seems illogical and confusing to make this in the past tense. I shall change it back and copy this exchange to the discussion page (where I should probably have started it!). Regards. KRC58 10:28, 20 May 2006 (UTC) Copied from Road Wizard's talk page.
- (tidying up & confirming that User:KRC58 has copied my comments correctly. Road Wizard 10:48, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Historic District Infobox
The infobox suggests the West Riding ended in 1974 and was "succeeded by" the metropolitan and non-metropolitan counties administering the area, but these succeeded West Riding County Council, not the West Riding of Yorkshire itself, which is a historic (and current) subdivision of the ancient and geographic county. Should we split the article into West Riding County Council (covering the former administrative county) and West Riding of Yorkshire covering the historic subdivision?
- No split is needed. The article should be expanded with sections about the ancient and administrative counties, which is what I am currently also doing with North Riding of Yorkshire. With adequate content it will become clear the infobox refers to the administrative county only. MRSC 10:22, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
In lieu of a split, two infoboxes would be needed: one for the former administrative county (titled West Riding County Council) and one for the Riding itself (with a start date of AD 877 and no-end date or successors). Yorkshire Phoenix 10:41, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
- West Riding County Council was the local authority for the admin county, not the name of the county. AFAIK, the admin county was officially the "County of York, West Riding", but usually called "Yorkshire, West Riding", wheras the ancient/historic county's name is/was "West Riding of Yorkshire". Oh, and the lieutenancy county was the "West Riding of the County of York, and the City and County of the City of York". Would these distinctions help? Or just confuse? Lozleader 11:51, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
That does help: and it couldn't be any more confusing than City of Leeds meaning the metropolitan district and Leeds meaning the city itself! Are we talking about splitting the article or just editing this article to use the different names where appropriate? Yorkshire Phoenix 11:53, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
- I think it could be accommodated in the one page, maybe with redirects...Lozleader 12:08, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Good idea: but this would involve a major rewrite. I'd suggest a section for each with the current sections demoted to subsections, but I don't have time right now. Unless someone beats me to it I'll try next week and then we can collorate until it's right. Yorkshire Phoenix 12:32, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
"County of York, West Riding" sounds to me like a registration county: are you sure that was the name of the 1889-1974 administrative county? Yorkshire Phoenix (talk • contribs) 15:27, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
- Well it was listed as "York, West Riding" in the list of administrative counties in the schedule to the Local Government Act 1933, and there are "The County of York, West Riding Review Order, 1937", "The County of York, West Riding Review Order, 1938", "The County of York, West Riding Review Order, 1939" and the "County of York, West Riding and County Borough of Sheffield (Alteration of Boundaries) Order 1938", so yes I think it was :-)Lozleader 15:58, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Ahh, so when you said AFAIK, the admin county was officially the "County of York, West Riding", you were just being modest, and all the names you stated in that comment were exact and citable? I'm right out of time now but will start the rewrite next week (if no-one beats me to it!) Yorkshire Phoenix (talk • contribs) 16:06, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I've had a quick go at improving the article and infobox to make it clearer when it is talking about the West Riding itself and when it is talking about the former administrative county. Yorkshire Phoenix (talk • contribs) 10:30, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
- I have an old school Bible with the coat of arms of the West Riding on the spine. The sticker inside says County Council of the West Riding of Yorkshire, Education Department. Is it possible that while the administrative county itself was called "County of York, West Riding", the council could be called "County Council of the West Riding of Yorkshire", or were they just paraphrasing their own name? Yorkshire Phoenix (talk • contribs) 09:41, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- It would appear that in law all administrative counties were called "County of Wherever", without the shire suffix, but in normal usage the shire was added. This seems to even extend to Berkshire and Wiltshire, which I have seen in a number of official documents as the "County of Berks" and "County of Wilts".
- I've tried searching the London Gazette archive to see what the county council was calling itself. As late as 1967 there is a reference to the "offices of York, West Riding County Council, County Hall, Wakefield". However there are also:
- Yorkshire, West Riding County Council
- West Riding County Council
- Yorkshire (West Riding) County Council
- all in use, at the same period.
- In the Local Government Act 1972 that abolished the admin county it is called "the administrative county of Yorkshire, West Riding", which supports the theory that (shire) is implicit. I guess "York, West Riding" was the official name, but not the one much used. Although Shropshire County Council were officially "The County Council of the County of Salop" for most of the twentieth century, they seem to have got away with using that title. Lozleader 11:38, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
- The original wording for translation to Latin from English originates from 1927, at which time Heed Concil was used. See:- Civic Heraldry Website West Riding County Council Motto Audi Consilium (Heed Consel). I have now placed a ref tag on the phrase. Richard Harvey (talk) 23:33, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Geography or Ancient divisions
Unlike most English counties that were divided into hundreds, Yorkshire, being so large, was divided first into thrithjungar (an Old Norse word meaning 'third parts')
Unlike most counties in England, which historically were divided into hundreds, Yorkshire was first divided into Thrydings, meaning 'Thirds'
Someone needs to sort out the infobox - the West Riding of Yorkshire was not 'created in 1889'. It was created around 876. We need to be careful about the subject here - while the administrative county only existed for 85 years, the historic county has existed for far longer and should not be defined so narrowly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ianbrettcooper (talk • contribs) 13:13, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
- Amended for clarification. NB: read the 'Historic District Infobox' section above. Richard Harvey (talk) 07:29, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
First use of 'Riding'?
- According to Riding (country subdivision) § Yorkshire, the term was in use in the 12th century. No idea how much further it goes back. -- 18:51, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
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