Talk:Winston Churchill

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Former good article Winston Churchill was one of the History good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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Decolonization[edit]

"Churchill guaranteed the complete collapse of the British Empire (and all other colonial empires) by signing the Charter." - Roosevelt signed it as well. So when is the United States going to hand over power to their own 'natives' in North America. I'm sure many eagerly await the day when the US President and members of Congress have names like "Eagle Wing", "Hunts With Bears", or similar. Most of the ex-British colonies now have their own 'native' governments. After over two hundred years of independence from Britain, why doesn't yours.

BTW, Churchill and many other people in the British government at the time were wary of giving India independence because unlike many Americans, they actually had around two hundred years of knowledge of India and of the various races and creeds, along with the various factions, within India, many that quite frankly, could not get on with each other and would likely be at each other's throats given half a chance. See Partition of India for the results.

And the people of Iran and Iraq weren't murdering each other in the streets while they were under British administration either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.30.162.231 (talk) 11:32, 3 January 2017 (UTC) |}

Rejected offers to end war[edit]

Churchill rejected offers by Hitler to end the war in July 1940 and May 1941. (2A00:23C4:6388:7300:C27:8080:2A08:99A6 (talk) 11:52, 28 November 2016 (UTC))

Surely those would have been decisions made by the War Cabinet, not just by Churchill? I wonder what were the conditions attached to those two offers? Surprised they are not mentioned at Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War, which otherwise seems to go into enormous detail about the content of that book. It's listed under "See also" in this article. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:20, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
Hitler publicly offered to end the war on 6 October 1939 after the German-Soviet conquest of Poland, in July 1940 after the Fall of France, and in May 1941 before the invasion of the Soviet Union. (2A00:23C4:6388:7300:D5B9:6DC7:6400:E228 (talk) 20:03, 28 November 2016 (UTC))
I wonder did you miss the deliberately placed question marks in the preceding reply. Here's another example  ? Martinevans123 (talk) 23:24, 28 November 2016 (UTC)
Churchill's line was that no peace could be accepted until Germany had given up her conquests. Halifax also publically opposed Hitler's July 1940 peace offer, although it is unclear whether he was privately still more sympathetic.Paulturtle (talk) 06:40, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

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Last needed citation[edit]

In June 1936, Churchill organised a deputation of senior Conservatives who shared his concern to see Baldwin, Chamberlain and Halifax. He had tried to have delegates from the other two parties and later wrote, "If the leaders of the Labour and Liberal oppositions had come with us there might have been a political situation so intense as to enforce remedial action."[1] As it was, the meeting achieved little, Baldwin arguing that the Government was doing all it could, given the anti-war feeling of the electorate.[citation needed]

References

  1. ^ The Gathering Storm p. 276.

Has anyone a copy of The Gathering Storm to look up the page number? Regards,Jeff5102 (talk) 13:20, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Sorted. Most of what Churchill wrote about this kind of thing needs to be taken with a pinch of salt - he later claimed that the Rhineland (March 1936) was the moment Hitler should have been "stood up to" - but he wasn't saying that at the time, whilst Rhodes James writes amusingly about how his views about defence and weaponry were often less well-informed than popular mythology would have us believe.Paulturtle (talk) 06:30, 7 December 2016 (UTC)
Thanks! Best regards,Jeff5102 (talk) 12:51, 8 December 2016 (UTC)
And now there are twenty citation-needed-tags addedto the article. Well, at least I had my joy for three weeks.Jeff5102 (talk) 11:18, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 December 2016[edit]

In the "Germany and rearmament, 1936" section:

"On 22 May 1936 Churchill was present at a meeting of Old Guard Conservatives (the group, not of them present on that occasion, included Austen Chamberlain, Geoffrey Lloyd, Leopold Amery and Robert Horne) at Lord Winterton’s house at Shillinglee Park, to push for greater rearmament."

This sentence is missing the word "all." It should read:

"On 22 May 1936 Churchill was present at a meeting of Old Guard Conservatives (the group, not all of them present on that occasion, included Austen Chamberlain, Geoffrey Lloyd, Leopold Amery and Robert Horne) at Lord Winterton’s house at Shillinglee Park, to push for greater rearmament." Shutupshake (talk) 21:07, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done agtx 21:09, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Guyana coup[edit]

Why is there no mention of his coup in Guyana? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/aug/26/mi5-files-coup-british-guiana (Morbson (talk) 13:53, 28 December 2016 (UTC))

Semi-protected edit request on 30 December 2016[edit]

Change Republic of Ireland to Ireland. The name of the state is Ireland. Republic is the system of governance of the state. 86.44.127.1 (talk) 00:09, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

You mean in the "Funeral" section, when describing the broadcast? Martinevans123 (talk) 00:23, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
Not done: "Discussions relating to the naming of Ireland articles must occur at Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration by order of the Arbitration Committee." Stickee (talk) 00:58, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

Length missing[edit]

Add length. People search that data.[1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 179.37.9.29 (talk) 00:47, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

We dont normally use the term "length" in biographies it has no meaning except related to time served in office which is included, if you actually mean height then it will only be mentioned if it was notable for some reason. MilborneOne (talk) 17:17, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
It looks like you do mean height. Do you have a better source? 1.67 metres (5.5 ft) wasn't that tall, but it was 4 inches shorter than that German guy. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:48, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
Five foot five or six wasn't that tall, but it wasn't that short either. By way of example, the table of "Average weights for healthy persons" in the 1933 Pharmaceutical Pocket Book gives heights from 5'2" to 6'0" for men. This article says he was 5'8" at his tallest, shrinking to a little over 5'6" in old age. DuncanHill (talk) 23:14, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
The 2014 article you link to is quite interesting. I'd not seen it before. And as it's the subject of a focused piece, in a WP:RS by a notable political person, I'd say that might argue for mentioning his height somewhere. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:24, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
Well, I don't think Boris has any psychological or psychiatric qualifications, and short man syndrome seems to be a load of bunk anyway, so for my money I wouldn't put it in. DuncanHill (talk) 23:35, 12 January 2017 (UTC)
Now, now. Just because Boris suffers from giant prat syndrome. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:58, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

References

Oldham[edit]

I know it can be rough, but does being the MP count as military service? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.81.159.219 (talk) 17:52, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

Well, the front row can be especially tough, I believe. But that's a fair point. The "Military service" section describes what he was principally engaged in during that period. And the Oldham by-election really can't be moved go anywhere else without disrupting the chronology. So I think we'll just have to live with it. Unless you have a better suggestion. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:42, 12 January 2017 (UTC)

Antwerp 1914[edit]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill#First_World_War_and_the_Post-War_Coalition

I'm not at all sure that the claim about saving the Channel ports is correct here. The Germans had no designs on them at this stage. They were attempting to implement the supposed Schlieffen Plan (assuming there was such a thing), which didn't even allow for British participation in the War, so the ports were of no relevance. If anything "saved" them, it was the battle of the Yser, as an unintended consequence.

What James actually says is: " ...the seven days respite almost certainly allowed Dunkirk and Calais to be secured", which is not quite the same thing. John French says in his memoirs that he feared for the Channel Ports, but he would, because they were vital to the British, but hey weren't in German plans at that time. An editor's footnote in Margot Asquith's War Diary: "(Churchill) claimed to have gained time to enable the Allies to secure the Channel Ports by preventing Antwerp's surrender until 10 October, a claim disputed by Strachan, First World War, p272-3." Hengistmate (talk) 11:59, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

John French's memoirs are notoriously unreliable, so I wouldn't take anything in there as gospel. If anything the intention (certainly of Churchill, and perhaps French) at this stage was to seize the Channel Ports to make sure that Britain rather than France controlled them. At one stage that autumn there was a plan to build a giant fortified camp around them, which Joffre vetoed. He was always keen to keep the British away from the sea to stop them doing a runner, and usually tried to keep a French army (Tenth iirc) between the BEF and the Belgians, with Foch playing a local coordinating role, so that Flanders didn't just become a British fiefdom. Some of Elizabeth Greenhalgh's books are good on this ("Victory through Coalition"), as is Philpott's 1996 book on Anglo-French relations and the Flanders theatre (back in the days when Philpott was writing sensible history rather than ridiculous polemic).Paulturtle (talk) 07:16, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
Did a bit more digging on this. In September 1914 the Allies thought that the war was won after the Battles of the Marne and Aisne, and Churchill was hoping to hold onto Antwerp as the left anchor of a new Allied line. It was only somewhat later that the German reserve corps turned up and marched headlong into British forces at First Ypres. Churchill did indeed claim that he had saved the Channel Ports, and his claims, even claims of foresight, grew a little during the drafting process of The World Crisis, but were repeated by the early batch of historians like Edmonds, Crutwell and Liddell Hart. The stuff I mentioned above about Anglo-French friction over control of the Channel Ports was during the autumn. See Robin Prior, Churchill's World Crisis as History (pp.32-6), quoted with approval by Charmley in 1993.Paulturtle (talk) 06:33, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

I don't see any reason not to believe French in this instance - he had nothing to gain by saying that he wanted a secure bridgehead. The rest is fair comment, but I don't think it addresses the question of what the article should say about this particular point. The German advance in western Belgium was an attempt to turn the Allied flank, not to seize the ports. Strachan says, "(Churchill argued) that he had prolonged the defence of Antwerp until 10 October, and that in doing so he gave sufficient time for the Allies to secure the Channel ports. In reality, Belgium's decision-making was determined not by Churchill but by the continuing power struggle between its senior commanders." How should this ambiguity be reflected in the article? Hengistmate (talk) 15:16, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Inexcusable suggestion by User:BenStein69 that Sir Winston Churchill was an anti-semite.[edit]

Hi.

I feel User:BenStein69 is extremely off-base for suggesting Sir Winston is an anti-semite.

Indeed even a simple cursory assessment of this outrageous claim suggests this is the type of misinformation that deters people from making edits.[1][2]

Edit: Additionally, User:Rms125a@hotmail.com claimed that the Template:officeholder religion field is deprecated, which does not seem to be true. And, following the brief comments on the field, I believe that this field (with a citation, I may add) should be re-added.

So this request is to make two changes:

  1. Remove the Antisemitism in the United Kingdom stub, as it is not true.
  2. Re-add the religion field, along with the citation. In the case of Sir Winston, this field is of decent importance.

Edit2: Hello @Jimbo Wales: please forgive the intrusion but it is imperative to get this matter resolved immediately. It is not acceptable to just insert an offensive category for a national figure, and remain silent when it occurs. Surely individuals with appropriate privileges to alleviate at least one of the two concerns has read this.

  • The antisemitism allegation is extremely serious and any similarly serious subscription to this belief is both uncivilised, as the mechanisms invoked to uphold this belief as true requires sufficient effort--i.e., some level of sentience--to uphold.

References

  1. ^ Rubinstein 2004, "Winston Churchill was among the best friends the Jews ever had as a British political leader..." p. 167
  2. ^ Rubinstein 2004, "In February 1920 Churchill produced one of the most curious and misunderstood documents he ever wrote about the Jews....
    There is nothing in Churchill's argument which would not have been echoed by Weizmann or Vladimir Jabotinsky. The latter in fact advocated an extreme form of Jewish nationalism as a rival to Jewish socialism. It is also the case that, since the foundation of the State of Israel, Jewish nationalism and neo-conservative doctrines closely associated with it have increasingly flourished, while Jewish left-wing socialism has sharply declined. While there are many reasons for this, probably the most important is that Jewish nationalism and international socialism are arguably incompatible, with Jews forced to choose between being nationalists and radical socialists. Certainly a majority have chosen the former, as Churchill wisely foresaw more than eighty years ago. Churchill's article is sometimes used to show that he was, at this time at least, something of an anti-semite, accepting the view of Jews as incorrigible radicals expressed often by the extreme right wing, but he was actually saying nothing of the kind&emdash; indeed, his argument was precisely opposite..." p. 169

Rubinstein, William D. (2004). "Winston Churchill and the Jews". Jewish Historical Studies. 39: 167–176.  MisinformationFighter (talk) 00:59, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Relax. There is certainly no need to ping JW. I have reverted, and expect some reply from BenStein69 with supporting sources to justify this rather odd claim. Irondome (talk) 03:45, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Someone removed all of the successors/predecessors[edit]

I know the list of Winston Churchill's offices does indeed make the infobox quite unbearably long, but I'm not sure removing information is the best solution. - Bokmanrocks01 (talk) 01:41, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

I am that someone. The templates at the bottom of the page contain the same information. Kablammo (talk) 01:47, 16 February 2017 (UTC)
Yes, but wouldn’t scrolling down to the bottom of the page be counterintuitive to the purpose of an infobox? --Sunshineisles2 (talk) 23:28, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

26 May 1940[edit]

It should be mentioned that Churchill and the cabinet seriously considered ending the war on that day. They were going to ask the still-neutral Mussolini to broker a negotiated end to the war. (2A00:23C4:638F:5000:28EF:52B:CC6E:81A6 (talk) 12:42, 21 February 2017 (UTC))