Talk:Wołyń Voivodeship (1921–1939)

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WP:NCGN[edit]

Google Books search results:

  • Your search - 1939 "Volhynian Voivodeship" - did not match any documents.[1]
  • Books 1 - 1 of 1 on 1939 "Wołyń Voivodeship".[2] Janina Mikoda, Andrzej Skrzypek, Instytut Pamięci Narodowej, Zbrodnicza ewakuacja więzień i aresztów NKWD na Kresach Wschodnich
  • Books 1 - 1 of 1 on 1939 "Wolyn Voivodeship".[3] Jan Tomasz Gross, War Through Children's Eyes: The Soviet Occupation of Poland

--Poeticbent talk 06:57, 5 July 2009 (UTC)

In that case, I'd support moving the article back to Wołyń Voivodeship (1921–1939). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:16, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Volhynian Voidvodship received twice as many google hits, and on google scholar when doing a specific search it received 25 hits vs. 6. If searching " Wołyń Voivodeship" on google scholar, it gets zero, whereas "Volhynian Voidvodship" gets 1. There is no reason for these pages to be named in the polish language, as it opposes wikipedia rules on english useage, as well as common use.--Львівське (talk) 21:52, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Please give links to your searches so we can verify what you are talking about. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:21, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Major correction[edit]

It's 2060 for Volhynian and 1110 for Wołyń....please don't fabricate numbers when they're there for all to see behind the links. --Львівське (talk) 00:47, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

...and on Bing.com, the same search yeilds a win for Volhynian by 16 > 12.--Львівське (talk) 00:48, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
There is an interesting discrepancy, I get 122 to 117 when I try to see the last page of the four digit results. Roughly, it seems to me there is no widely preferred spelling, so I think using the Polish administrative title to distinguish the voivodeship from the region (which I agree should be called Volhynia) seems preferable. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 00:52, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
2:1 isn't a preference? I see the logic in using the admin. title as you say....just it being so even--Львівське (talk) 01:03, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
Since 2:1 numbers are dubious, and most show 1:1, yes, I say there is no preference. You are welcome to ask for a third opinion. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:38, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
What do you find dubious?--Львівське (talk) 19:35, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

quote about terror[edit]

The part I took out, which Piotrus disputed, let me explain my rationale.

I checked out the link and nowhere does it describe the action as such. Above all, this isn't a scholarly or reputable source, but rather an interview with a source who perpetuates inflated numbers (re: 300,000 poles killed by UPA rather than 20-60,000). It doesn't seem useful to use such a source, and if anything should be on the massacre article as it doesn't really have to do with the voivodship itself.--Львівське (talk) 22:09, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

"Ale OUN i UPA mordowały także Ukraińców, którzy się sprzeciwiali zabijaniu Polaków. " - "But OUN and UPA also murdered Ukrainians, who were opposed to the killing of Poles" "Faktem natomiast jest, że UPA mordowała też Ukraińców. " - "It is a fact, that UPA also murdered Ukrainians".radek (talk) 00:06, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for beating me to this. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 00:47, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Or, if you'd like, it's even in Snyder (first hit) [4] "In 1944-45 tne UPA murdered Ukrainians it found uncooperative, and Poles it suspected of "collaborating" with the new regime."radek (talk) 00:14, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Or here [5]

The second link is terrific as it actually specifies this happened in Volyn. Thanks.--Львівське (talk) 00:31, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Scope creep[edit]

Article is restricted by date 1921-1939. Most of lead relates to post 1939. Almost all of the History section is post 1939. This should be deleted or shortened as these topics are dealt with in other article. Will correct shortly unless there is compelling reason to include these section. Bobanni (talk) 19:44, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Nice try but the idea that the article is "restricted" by date is downright laughable. The article describs a Voivodeship that existed from 1921 to 1939 and is fully right to also describe why it ceased to exist. Loosmark (talk) 21:23, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
  • I see a lingering problem here. By international law, Wołyń Voivodeship was Polish not until the first day of the 1939 German-Soviet invasion of Poland, but rather, until the whole province was annexed by the Soviet Union in 1945 at the insistence of Joseph Stalin following the Tehran Conference of 1943, and thus it became recognized as part of the Ukrainian SSR. The question is, should this article be renamed to Wołyń Voivodeship (1921–1943) or rather to Wołyń Voivodeship (1921–1945)? The same can be said about the remaining articles on other eastern voivodeships of Second Polish Republic. --Poeticbent talk 21:43, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
Good point, the Voivodeship was de facto annexed by the Soviet Union in 1939 but de jure it was part of Poland till 1945. Loosmark (talk) 22:07, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
Tough question. I personally consider the Second Polish Republic defunct as of September '39, and replaced by the Polish Underground State. The administrative division of the underground state is an underresearched issue, but it mostly mirrored the pre war 2nd Republic one; the problems occurred where the German/Soviet border made coordination between border difficult. I'd suggest discussing this first in the Second Polish Republic article's talk, as we should start by deciding on the date the state ended in the infobox there. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 00:17, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Please take a look at the book Poland, 1918-1945: an interpretive and documentary history by Peter D. Stachura. I don't know where the idea of the Second Polish Republic ending with the two invasions came from? And, what would the exact date be? Stachura defines the Second Polish Republic as "Poland 1918–1945". Quote:

    In the turbulent history of twentieth-century Europe, the reborn Polish State faced the most formidable and diverse array of problems imaginable. From 1918 until the end of the Second World War, Poland struggled to retain and consolidate independence... [6]

    --Poeticbent talk 15:16, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

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Fate of Jewish population?[edit]

Please some expert should also add the fate of the Jewish population of Volhynia here, which is now missing very much from the history part. I'm sure not only Polish people suffered from the Germans and the Ukrainians... Kelenbp 12:01, 11th July 2015 (UTC)

25 February 2017 edits[edit]

I understand where User:Aleksandr Grigoryev is coming from, but his revisions to Wołyń Voivodeship are historically indefensible, and have been made without corresponding reliable third party sources. During the formation of the interwar Poland, in late 1918 the West Ukrainian People's Republic was pronounced by UNDP for several months against the will of many locals, which led to Polish–Ukrainian War. – At exactly the same time, the two newly-formed governments claimed territories ceded to Austria-Hungary the Russian Empire by the Congress of Vienna. Claims were being made by both Poles and Ukrainians, but the Battle of Lemberg (1918) went on until the armistice was signed ... not in the contemporary Ukraine, but in the Austrian Partition. That's where the similarities end. Riga, on the order of Vladimir Lenin. Poeticbent talk 17:07, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

Poeticbent, Wolyn Voivodeship was formed from the territory of Volhynian Governorate and was not part of Austria-Hungary. In Summer of 1917 the Russian Provisional Government recognized Volhynian Governorate part of Ukraine. Five westernmost counties of Volhynian Governorate were passed to Poland by the Treaty Warsaw which was signed by Pilsudski and Petliura in 1920. Later the Soviets agreed to surrender two more counties moving Polish eastward for few dozens of miles, while the former Austrian-Russian border along Zbruch River was confirmed. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 02:00, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
The Treaty of Warsaw was signed by ministers of foreign affairs Jan Dąbski from Polish side and Andriy Livytskyi (future President in exile) from Ukrainian side. (Melnyk, I. Treaty of Warsaw of Pilsudski with Petliura) Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 02:30, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
Also, Austrian Partition ends no similarities nor differences. Just because Pilsudski served in the Austrian-Hungarian Army, it does not automatically makes West Ukraine Polish territory. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 04:39, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
Partitioned Poland & the 2nd Republic (1772-1939).png
  • I apologize, Aleksandr Grigoryev. I was confused and got it all wrong. Please forgive me. To make up for my mistake I produced a composite of two maps showing what happened. Please take a look at where the Volhynian Voivodeship was in relation to a base map of the Partitioned Poland. It is outlined in dark burgundy within the Second Republic (in dark grey). The Russian Partition is marked in three shades of green. The Austrian Partition is marked in dark orange for 1772 and dark yellow for 1795. The Volhynian Voivodeship never was a part of Austria-Hungary ... You are absolutely correct. Meanwhile, the actual year of both proclamations of independence preceded the Peace of Riga by almost three years. The Soviet Russia acted on behalf of Soviet Belarus and Soviet Ukraine. The treaty ended the Polish–Soviet War in March 1921. Poeticbent talk 06:40, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
Addendum: I understand how important in the Soviet historiography was the creation of the revolutionary Russian Provisional Government after the abdication of Tsar Nicholas II. Although the self-proclaimed Provisional Government did not have international recognition, it did declare the independence of Poland. This however, did not stop the Soviets from invading Poland again in 1919, in the name of the same old Tsarist colonial ambitions stretching back over a century, and preceded only by the Soviet westward offensive of 1918–19. – They really thought they could do this.Poeticbent talk 08:05, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
Poeticbent, Soviet historiography has nothing to do with this. It seems that there are some white spaces among your historical facts. What do you mean Russian Provisional Government was not internationally recognized? It was an official interim government of the former Russian Empire that assured representatives of the Triple Entente that Russia will continue with its efforts in the World War I. Second of all, just because of that (legal status of the Russian Provisional Government) it does not make Volhynian Governorate automatically part of Austria or Poland. In regards Ukraine, by signing Treaty of Brest-Litovsk Austria recognized Ukraine in its borders. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 13:21, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
The usual carving out of the Polish territories on paper with the pencil in hand, without the presence of the Poles at the talks whatsoever! At the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk Soviet Russia defaulted on all of Imperial Russia's commitments to the Triple Entente alliance. Poeticbent talk 18:26, 26 February 2017 (UTC)