Talk:Yarralumla, Australian Capital Territory/Archive 1

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Suggestions November 2004

A couple of suggestions, if I may -

a) It could really do with a politics section, describing what electorates it is in at territory and federal level, and who it tends to vote for. b) It could do with an improved lead section (Summer Hill, New South Wales is a really good example of this). c) Can any Aboriginal history be found? d) Expanding the demographics along the lines of the brief section in the Summer Hill mightn't be a bad thing.

Still, this is coming along really nicely :) Ambi 12:51, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

a) The ACT only has 2 federal electorates and 3 local electorates, it would seem strange to me repeating essentially the same information over and over in every Canberra suburb article. This should maybe be covered in the district articles (or possible a politics of the ACT article) and linked to from the suburb articles. I don't know of any voting statistics that break down to suburb level.
b) I will have a go at further improving the lead section, it is still a bit of a mess.
c) Aboriginal history is only really available for the complete Canberra region. So again it would seem strange to me listing the same information over and over in every Canberra suburb article. I believe this has already been covered in History of Canberra#Aboriginal presence (though possibly not well enough).
d) Canberra is a very boring place statistics wise (very anglo and middle class). I have pulled out the statistics that I think make Yarralumla notable, but I guess I could also list exciting facts like the percentages of males to females (which never seem to vary by more than a couple of percent). I agree that many sections of the article are still not expressed clearly, but I am slowly attempting to remedy this. Martyman 13:33, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

A couple of issues

I made some spelling/syntax corrections but I'm notsure about the following

  • Is 'behavioural' spelt like the American or British (behavioural) spelling in Australian English?
  • 'Initially Yarralumla (like most of early Canberra) was almost entirely government built housing. Being on the other side of the Molonglo River from the city centre it was considered too far out of town by most public servants, and it was mainly settled by blue collar workers, many working at the nearby brickworks and nursery. This was also affected by the government policy of the time of providing housing within short distances of peoples places of work.'

Does the last sentence mean the housing was deliberately built near to blue collar workplaces? Deus Ex 19:53, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

  • Mostly Australia uses English spellings of words. I looked up Behavioural and either spelling is acceptable in Australia. So it comes down to a mater of personal preference, if I was thinking about it I would probably use the English spelling for consistancy. For exmple "Colour" is the prefered spelling here.
  • OK, what I was trying to say here was that Yarralumla consisted of government built housing. It was not so much that it was built near the blue collar employers. More that the policy was that the government would try to give anyone who worked in Yarralumla a house in yarralumla. This was also the case for other non-blue collar employers like the ANU on the other side of the lake. These days government housing is alloted on an order of merit and location barely comes into the equation. My grandparents and their friends where public servants living in early Yarralumla, many people considered it strange they would choose to live that far out of town. Martyman 22:07, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback, I made a couple of changes. Deus Ex 18:55, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Geographic locator table

I think I prefered the old geographic locator table, but if this is the prefered version, and the standard for Melbourne suburbs now, then I guess I can change all my other Canberra suburb articles to use it too. Martyman 22:11, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You're free to use whichever form you wish - but I noticed a comment on the WP:FAC page stating it was a bit ugly. However if you want to use these ones, I'll do up a template for you like Template:MelbSuburbBox1 which makes it a lot easier to update -- Chuq 22:56, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Just did :) Template:CanbSuburbBox1. See Template talk:CanbSuburbBox1 for usage -- Chuq 23:01, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Which embassies?

Yarralumla is home to many of Canberra's foreign embassies and high commissions

many is not specific enough, even if all are not listed, the key embassies located should be at least mentioned.

There are 35 embassies in Yarralumla. They are all listed on the List of embassies in Canberra page that is linked to above the parragraph you mention. I could mention a few of them but I would think selecting "key" embassies may be a bit POV. Martyman 04:52, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I suppose I could say something like: Good examples of regionaly styled embassies include the embassies of Saudi Arabia, Thailand, India, Papua New Guinea and China. Martyman 04:57, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)
By key I meant either pretty ones, or the ones Australia has closest relationships. I understand both have POV aspects.--ZayZayEM 01:55, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
You could say that 'many embassy buildings are designed in the Architectural styles of the countries they represent' without listing any specifically. I think the most notable is the Chinese one, although it certainly isn't the only one, and I think even mentioning the Chinese one is POV, or may be seen as POV. I think my preference would be not to list any. Adz 05:04, 3 November 2005 (UTC)


Request for comment November 2005

At Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Canberra Martyman requested proof reading of the aticle and any suggestions before nominating the article for FAC.--A Y Arktos (Talk) 19:04, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Notable places

One of my major gripes with this article has always been the "notable places" section, as I don't think the really small sub-sections work very well. What would you think about following the lead of Waterfall Gully, South Australia, which IMHO handled a similar section really well? It'd also be easy to slip in a good paragraph about the embassies in there, as discussed above. Ambi 04:51, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I really can't win with this. I inlcude lots of information on places and people say spin it off into sub-articles. Then whwn I do that I have other people complain that I haven't included enough information. I will give it a go rewriting the section as a single block of prose, but personally I think I will prefer the way it is set out now. --Martyman-(talk) 05:16, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
The sub-articles are great; the problem is this is an article about the suburb. They do need a decent summary; Waterfall Gully does this better than any suburb I've seen so far, which is why I'm suggesting using that as a lead. Ambi 05:26, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Just had a read of the new and re-written "notable places" section. It's well done, congrats! I'd chuck this article up for FA as soon as Waterfall Gully is finished (so you don't make it look bad by comparison :P ). Cheers, - >>michaelg | talk 12:26, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Demography

Housing

The article currently states: "Accommodation is mostly separate houses, although the construction of medium density townhouses has been gaining in popularity in recent years." and then there is a footnote link to the census. The census does not really support the assertion at first glance or perhaps we need to qualify "townhouses". There has been a slight shift in the proportion of "semi detached, row or terrace houses and townhouses" from 20.7% to 22.9% with an increase in numbers from 241 to 276 in the decade 1991 - 2001. In the same period ther has also been an increase in separate houses from 841 to 871 and in 1996 there was a drop down to 810. If we ignore the possibility that there were counting variances or errors between the censuses, there is an awful lot of building activity, no increase in house block allocation and an increase in density of dwellings. That there is some variance in counting can be seen by the number of flats over the 3 census counts (60, 82, 52) - were the 30 flats that disappeared between 1996 and 2001 bulldozed or reclassified as townhouses? There were 1142 dwellings of some sort in 1991. In 2001 there were 1199 an increase over the decade of just under 5%. I know from personal observation there has been a lot of building activity in the suburb. As a result houses have got large and there has been an increase in numbers of dwellings. Do others agree there has been no additional block allocation and therefore we can talk about the density increase?--A Y Arktos (Talk) 19:04, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I know that the number of medium density developments going in has been increasing, but I am not too sure where to find data to back this up. The fluctuations in numbers of dwellings is probably caused by the continous cylce of demolision and rebuilding that is occuring in the suburb. The new dwellings are invariably of two types. Either multi dwellings (2 stand alone houses on the block or 3 or more attached townhouses) or single huge dwellings that take up almost the entire block. As far as I can remember since 1991 the only new land that has been opened up has been the site of the old petrol station that now has around 10 townhouses on it. Flats only exist in a small area of the suburb next to adelaide avenue and as far as I know none of them has been knocked down. Maybe they have been amalgamated somewhat into larger flats??? --Martyman-(talk) 21:46, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Age

The median age is actually 43 years according to the Ausstats link provided. Where did 41 come from?--A Y Arktos (Talk) 19:04, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Took me a while to figure this one out, but the figures in the article where average ages, not median ages. They where derived from the spreadsheet available on the linked page. Anyway I have changed these to median values now, for clarity. --Martyman-(talk) 21:38, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Embassies

I like the table of embassies (it might look beter with a single out line rather than the double), but the section could use a a couple of sentences to tie the table into the text. Around three or four sentences which mention when they started being built, which is the biggest one (US in terms of land area I think), unusual architecture, open days etc so it is clear why they are interesting.--nixie 02:51, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I have re-arranged the section so that the paragraph that mentions the embassies is closer to the table, and I agree thatthe information you mention would help the article. Unfortunatly I have no idea where to even start looking for it. --Martyman-(talk) 03:20, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I would like to reorder the section notable places to put the embassies immediately after Government house. I think they are more important than the brickworks and the Hotel Canberra and probably than Weston Park. Mixing in tourist drive six, Lennox Gardens and the Yarralumla yacht club at the end of the paragraph doesn't work for me - need to rethink.--A Y Arktos (Talk) 02:40, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

done, --Martyman-(talk) 04:09, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Does Denmark still have an embassy in Yarralumla? An older map I saw showed it next to Norway's embassy, but it isnt listed on the List of embassies in Canberra. Astrokey44 05:40, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Missing information

This table at Talk:Seattle,_Washington#Comparison_of_topics_and_size_with_other_city_Featured_Articles might give some hints about missing information, in fact also for the Canberra article too - it is in fact mainly directed at cities.--A Y Arktos (Talk) 01:59, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Geology

There is a geological formation called the Yarralumla formation. Google search brings up 46 mentions (I think a heap of them are wiki mirros as I mention it in the Red Hill suburb article). It should fit under the geography section but not quite sure how to fit it in yet. Maybe it should get its own article with brief reference in the Yarralumla article.

Copy and paste from various sources:

Yarralumla Formation was created during the last major episode of marine sedimentation in the Canberra area. This period represents a hiatus in the otherwise volcanically dominant Silurian Period, at the end of which all the earlier sedimentary and volcanic formations were uplifted and folded. National Trust reference Deakin anticline
dates from the Silurian period 425 million years ago; only fossil marine unit in South Canberra with fossils of gracitiopods, trilobites, coral and a simple crinoid preserved in a bedding plane ; there excellent examples of an anticline in calcareous siltstone, also typical tuffaceous mudstone, and siltstone ACT Planning report on Yarralumla brickworks (page 6)
There is a book on brachiopods of the formation: Strusz, D.L., 1984, Brachiopods of the Yarralumla Formation (Ludlovian), Canberra, Australia. [1]
All I can imagine might be able to be said on the subject from Geosceince Australia: [2]

--A Y Arktos (Talk) 01:57, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Suburb amenities

I have to confess to not linking the term - makes me think of public toilet blocks! However, I think an important amentity is the ovals: the pretty one by the school and the one across Schlich Street closer to the lake. Also the yacht clubs ... so perhaps the collective term sporting amenities. Yarralumla also had (still has?) an excellent climbing pyramid in the playground in the middle of the suburb - perhaps something could be said about playgrounds in the context of sport or additionally. I was inspired to think about sport when checking other featured article deabates about suburbs including Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Suburbs of Johannesburg/archive2. I will check out some others for hints.--A Y Arktos (Talk) 01:57, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Map of Suburb

I have always been thinking about including a map for Yarralumla, but have never got around to doing it. I was intending to extended my Image:Inner-canberra_01MJC.png map to cover the other bit of Yarralumla and re-center it. In fact I think I even have a version of my central canberra map with the embassies marked floating around somewhere. Now Astrokey has uploaded his map of Yarralumla I am tempted to finish mine, but that might be a bit to rude. Any suggestions? --Martyman-(talk) 04:37, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't comment about being rude, although I always feel bad about replacing somebody else's image with one of my own (eg, Legislative Assembly and Parl House). I wanted to comment on a different note though. - The info on the image page that contains Astrokey's map says that the creator created it him/herself, but doesn't actually say who created it. While we know that it was Astrokey, future users who haven't followed the history of this article would not know that. Also, the map looks strikingly similar to a UBD map, which leads me to wonder whether it might not get into trouble in future for copyright violation. It woudl be easy for somebody to say that it was a tracing of the UBD map. What rules are there about this? Adz 04:56, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
I create most of my maps through tracing, though I try to use more than one source per map and not copy the colour scheme. Also if you go through to the COmmons page it shows who uploaded the image. --Martyman-(talk) 05:00, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
If you want to make another map/remove mine thats ok - just please move it here to the talk page if you do. The colours are different to the UBD map (such as they used light grey for suburban areas instead of pink & embassy areas werent shown in a different colour), and most maps from different companies would show almost exactly the same information, so I dont think it could be said that its a copyvio. Plus they didnt show flags for the embassies on theirs or the canberra nara park Astrokey44 05:26, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

I like the idea of Asrtokeys map, but it needs to be cropped and the size of text may need to be increased so that the basic details can be seen at 250-300px.--nixie 01:46, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

I also like Astrokey's map with the flags and the different landuse indicated by colour. There probably should be a key or legend for landuse or whatever the colours are indicating. The font is not clear even on the high resolution version [3]. There are some basic rules about maps - they should show scale; where north is (I know it is implied); they should always show date (the map after all is relevant to 2005 not 1945 and will probably not be accurate in 2065. There are perhaps some other things too that I can't remember right now.--A Y Arktos (Talk) 02:21, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Ok Ill see what I can do, I still have the file with the map in different pieces so it shouldnt be too hard to change. Where should it be cropped? Astrokey44 02:35, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
It could do without most of the lake.--nixie 05:05, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Just updated with a larger version with larger text and a legend, and changed black outline on lake to blue because I thought it was too strong. Also should point out that if there's any text you want me to add, delete, change, resize, move etc I can do that without any trouble because the individual text is separate from the map. Because Weston Park peninsula sticks out so far north I thought it may as well show the north shore of the lake? Astrokey44 05:09, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I am sorry I know I am going to sound like an extremely rude bastard, but there are so many things about the map that I still find annoying. The huge range of different font sizes and sans-serif font are distracting. The map itself is pixelated and obviously blown up when you view it at full resolution. These sorts of illustrations should be created using vector graphics to enable output at any resolution without loss of quality and easy modifications to any part of the image. I have never heard of Mt. Yarralumla (I am not saying that it doesn't exist but putting it on the map might make people think there is an actual mountain there) and the area marked as grey around it is now the second nine holes of the Royal canberra golf course. The embassies (and land use) are out of date, The saudie arabian embassy is on hoptoun circuit and the land opposite is reserved for an embassy (can't remember which) also the Turkish? embassy is under contruction on the land opposite the US embassy. The Norweigan flag is smack on top of the only mosque in Canberra. I do agree with you about showing the northern shore of the lake though. I am still going to try to finish off my map at some time and try it out instead. --Martyman-(talk) 07:11, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
No its ok, its the first time ive tried making a suburb type map..youre obviously alot more experienced. The font sizes were mostly the same in the first one I did, I made them larger because people said they were too small. I wasn't sure about Mt Yarralumla - I assumed it was a mountain because it said "Yarralumla xxx metres on the map I had". Is vector graphics the png format? Unfortunately the program Im using cant save to png which is really annoying. Astrokey44 11:57, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
Fixed up some of the things, the grey area changed to green & removed "Mt.", and added the mosque, Saudi & Nigerian embassies Astrokey44 02:40, 7 November 2005 (UTC)