Talk:Yemeni Civil War (2015)

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On which side Yemen's Armed Forces are fighting?[edit]

I have put most of Yemen's Army on the side of the Houthis / Saleh, and I've sourced it well: my source was Mr. "President" Hadi's foreign minister, quoted by Reuters on 01/04/2015, saying:

"Although the only forces in Aden still loyal to the Saudi-backed Hadi are from local militias, some parts of the army continue to back him elsewhere including the eastern province of Hadramawt and near Marib, he said."

I also listed army units known to be loyal to Hadi one by one, adding a source for each of those. However, someone with the nick "LightandDark2000" just put Yemen's army then on the side of Mr. Hadi again without giving any source for this, deleting my sources and just saying "That section is for the military strength, not units." See here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Yemeni_Civil_War_%282015%29&diff=659268951&oldid=659266998

As I'm just a guest here, I don't want to start any "edit war." However, I would like to review someone with credentials here at this platform the reverse edit by "LightandDark2000" - which was done without any addition of sources, but deleting sources. The key question in substance is here: "On which side Yemen's Armed Forces are fighting?" Or put it in another way: Which parts of Yemen's Armed Forces are with or against whom? I think this question is a crucial one for the whole Yemeni Civil War 2015, isn't it? So I think the answer to this question shall be well sourced. --84.189.1.143 (talk) 12:58, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Split[edit]

Propose to split the section on GCC military intervention in Yemen (2015) into a separate article, as this is clearly a notable and differing event.GreyShark (dibra) 05:55, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

It seems you made the split too early and without an agreement on proper article naming. The result was immediate re-merge request and i guess quite a few of us may challenge your naming of the new article.GreyShark (dibra) 07:45, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
  • I Support the proposal while insist on maintaining the following sentence in this article:

According to the Saudi news outlet Al Arabiya, Saudi Arabia is contributing 100 warplanes and 150,000 soldiers to the military operation in Yemen. According to Reuters, planes from Egypt, Morocco, Jordan, Sudan, Kuwait, the United Arab Emirates, Qatar and Bahrain are also taking part in the operation. In addition, Egypt, Pakistan, Jordan and Sudan are ready to participate in a ground offensive--Seyyed(t-c) 06:22, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Curious why you think that line needs to remain in this article when it more aptly relates to the military intervention? -Kudzu1 (talk) 06:29, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
We do not move all of the important information in such cases. There should be something which helps the reader to understand the importance of the issue in the main article and lead him/her to the sub-article. --Seyyed(t-c) 06:35, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
I understand -- I just don't think we need to go into the specifics like that on this article. What about mentioning the other countries that are participating in the operation, without going into detail about a prospective ground offensive or force strength? -Kudzu1 (talk) 07:07, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Merge[edit]

It has been proposed to re-merge the 2015 military intervention in Yemen article back into Southern Yemen offensive (2015).GreyShark (dibra) 07:18, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

  • Oppose per above discussion. The apparent consensus is that these are two discrete operations, with the offensive being a Houthi campaign directed toward Aden and the intervention being a Saudi-led campaign striking targets principally in the vicinity of Sana'a. They are connected, and one has clearly followed onto the other, but they are different. -Kudzu1 (talk) 07:24, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
Kudzu1's reasoning seems logical to me. Mhhossein (talk) 15:44, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment: I just restored the content of this page after it was blanked overnight, about five hours ago, and redirected to the intervention page. Friendly reminder to everyone: don't blank pages without consensus, and if you see a page that has been blanked without consensus, please feel free to fix it. -Kudzu1 (talk) 14:56, 26 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose I think these are two related issues and agree with Kudzu1.--Seyyed(t-c) 16:35, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Reactions[edit]

@Kudzu1: I noticed that you removed my edit to this article. Your edit summary was informative but please consider that some parts of the air strikes occured in the southern area hence reactions may be included here. What do you think? Mhhossein (talk) 15:51, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I wondered if you might have put the section into the wrong article by mistake. Sorry about that. My thinking is that to keep a relatively bright line between the Houthi ground offensive and the Saudi-led intervention, we should just put reactions to the bombing campaign on that page, but if there were notable outside reactions to the Houthi advance that preceded it, then they would go here. -Kudzu1 (talk) 17:27, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Fighting with Al-Qaede[edit]

@Kudzu1 and Mhhossein: I think we should make a third column in the template and add Al-Qaede to it. Please look at this news: Today, the fighting centered on the Shabwa Province, in the oil-rich Usaylan region, where al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP) and Ansar al-Sharia hold sway. 38 were killed in fighting between the Houthis and Sunni tribesmen.[1]--Seyyed(t-c) 08:38, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm going to say let's wait on this. For one, Antiwar.com isn't a very good source. For another, I haven't seen compelling evidence to support the notion that AQAP is a significant faction in this offensive, the goal of which is the fall of Aden and the defeat of Hadi's holdouts. Clashes between AQAP and both the "official" government and the Houthis/Saleh loyalists have been ongoing for literally years, and while I certainly think jihadist groups are taking advantage of the power vacuum, that's best covered on al-Qaeda insurgency in Yemen and Aftermath of the 2014–15 Yemeni coup d'état for right now. That could and very well may change, if this offensive brings the Houthis into a more direct confrontation with AQAP, Ansar al-Sharia, and/or ISIL. -Kudzu1 (talk) 07:18, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Massive overhaul[edit]

So obviously this article used to look a lot different. But in discussing the matter with User:EkoGraf, we agreed that the conflict has proven durable enough and has had enough impacts across Yemen, not just in the governorates targeted by the southern offensive, that it needed an overarching article. Reliable sources are increasingly describing this conflict as a "civil war", albeit one with significant foreign military involvement (there's precedent, e.g. Libya and Syria).

From now on, all casualties associated with fighting or bombing or shelling in Yemen (or across the border into Saudi Arabia, or in the waters of the Bab-el-Mandeb or Gulf of Aden) should be counted here. This article's scope now covers victims of Saudi bombing in Sana'a, Sa'dah, and wherever else, as well as violence between jihadist groups and others throughout Yemen. -Kudzu1 (talk) 06:57, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

This "civil war" did not begin in 2015. It began way earlier than that. The Houthi insurgency in Yemen began in 2004. We need to seriously organize these Yemen articles.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 23:23, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
They are seriously organized in a way they were not before. The Houthis are no longer simply insurgents; they now claim to be the Yemeni government, and at this point, they probably have a better claim than anyone else. The civil war didn't start in 2004, according to reliable sources that indicate Yemen was "slipping into" or "on the verge of" civil war a couple weeks ago (and now refer regularly to "Yemen's civil war" or "the conflict in Yemen"). There was virtually no armed conflict between Hadi loyalists and the Houthis/Saleh loyalists from the Fall of Sana'a last September up until Hadi fired General al-Saqqaf last month; indeed, for a significant portion of that time, there was a "unity government" in place that was led by Hadi while the Houthis were calling the shots.
As structured now: there was the insurgency from 2004 to 2014/15, when the Houthis mounted their coup (starting with their takeover of Sana'a and ending with their "constitutional declaration" of a new government), then there was about a month and a half of chess pieces moving around the board in the aftermath of the coup, and then the civil war (or whatever we want to call it) broke out. These are discrete phases, broken down along obvious chronological dividing points, of the Yemeni crisis (which was preceded by the Houthi insurgency, which had its ebbs and flows until accelerating rapidly over the past couple years and culminating in the Houthis taking control of the government). The organization is sound, and each article has a distinct scope. That's really the best you can hope for in coverage of a crisis that has been anything but clear-cut. -Kudzu1 (talk) 23:43, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
The 2011 Libyan Civil War began with protests, then insurgency, then the rebels took over Tripoli (the capital), then defeated Gadafi's forces once and for all. This Yemeni conflict is very similar, although the amount of time it took is different. Since there was never a break in the fighting, this has been a continuous conflict since 2004. Dividing up this conflict into multiple articles is conufusing and misleading.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 00:52, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
One solution is to create an article called "War in Yemen (2004-present)", similar to War in Afghanistan (1978-present).--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 00:55, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
There have been numerous breaks in the fighting, and there was actually little direct conflict between the Houthis and the Yemeni government after the 2010 ceasefire, up until much more recently. Most of the fighting in 2011-14 was between the Houthis and Sunni tribes.
It is a right mess, riddled with sourcing issues and missing quite a bit of pertinent information, but we do have the Houthi insurgency in Yemen page... I made some changes last night to cut it off at the point the Houthis announced the formation of a government, since at that point it seems like a real stretch to keep calling the conflict an "insurgency", but if you feel strongly that this current conflict should be considered part of that lengthier campaign, you can always revert my changes per WP:BRD. -Kudzu1 (talk) 00:59, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Question - Why is this article kept separate from the aftermath one? I'm not opposed to the "civil war" naming, but people like Robert Fisk described this conflict, along with others, as such even before the Houthis' takeover in early February. I'm just wondering: why shouldn't the scope of this article be broadened to also cover both the coup and post-coup events?
However, regarding FutureTrillionaire's other concerns; the "Yemen articles" are fairly organized at the moment, and "solutions" like that are the reason why we end up with a lot with conflicts that are hard to organize in the first place. This is also the reason why we sometimes fail to determine start/end dates. Contrary to your opinion, I believe that such splits are actually helpful for readers to make a distinction between the breaks and escalations in any conflict. After all, escalations are usually notable enough to merit separate articles, something you sadly failed to realize last summer during the IS offensive in Iraq when some editors kept calling for a new umbrella article. I strongly reject having 2004 as a start date for this war unless you provide sufficient reliable sources (if there are any) that explicitly say so, otherwise we are clearly in WP:OR territory. Please don't let this topic end up like Iraq and Afghanistan, FT, and kindly wait till the developments are a little clearer to go ahead with such procedures. Thank you, Fitzcarmalan (talk) 13:22, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
I'm agnostic on having this article fall under the umbrella of the aftermath article, so long as that article continues to be focused on the political developments after the coup. It's difficult, as we all know quite well, to write historiography of a history that is currently in progress; it may turn out, in the fullness of time, that this conflict is a relatively brief coda to the coup, as FT suggests. Or it may last months or years, especially if Saudi ground troops get involved. At this stage, who knows? -Kudzu1 (talk) 15:07, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
I would add, at any rate, that the coup itself unfolded pretty slowly and was largely political maneuvering, at least after al-Ahmar was beaten and fled the country; even when the Houthis took over the presidential palace, I don't think anyone was killed, and Hadi and his ministers resigned (under duress) rather than being executed or even jailed. Hadi was under house arrest for one month, and then after he fled to Aden, another month went by before the full-scale clashes broke out (at the airport, and then the offensive). -Kudzu1 (talk) 15:12, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Name consistency[edit]

1. 1994 civil war in Yemen


2. Yemeni Civil War (2015)

Any comments on that?--93.137.158.240 (talk) 19:52, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Fourth column[edit]

It's completely unnecessary. ISIL has claimed (not even necessarily made) one attack that could be considered part of this conflict. It controls no territory in Yemen. It has not been a target of the Saudi air campaign. Giving it its own infobox column is WP:UNDUE and makes the page look unnecessarily messy. As one of the editors who actually got Wikipedia to allow 4+ column infoboxes in the first place, I strongly believe they should only be used when it is absolutely needed to convey the dynamics of this conflict. There is no information I have seen in reliable sources to suggest ISIL has clashed with Hadi loyalists or AQAP has part of this conflict. There is no independent verification of their claim to have perpetrated a terrorist attack in the capital. They shouldn't be in the infobox, at least not with their own combatant column. -Kudzu1 (talk) 20:28, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Merging Aftermath of the 2014–15 Yemeni coup d'état[edit]

No consensus to merge. -Kudzu1 (talk) 05:26, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@Kudzu1, RGloucester, Nannadeem, Mhhossein, Googol30, Mbcap, and EkoGraf:; Regarding this discussion I propose to merge that article in this one. What is your idea?--Seyyed(t-c) 06:12, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Oppose: I don't think so. During the period covered in the aftermath article, there were no notable clashes between Hadi and Houthi fighters. There is no need to merge the pages, as their scopes are distinct. -Kudzu1 (talk) 08:12, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Strongly Support The civil war began after the coup d'état. --Panam2014 (talk) 07:55, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment @Sa.vakilian::Can you support your proposal?
I think the explanation in the moving discussion is clear. In my view, both of these articles include the 2015 conflict while this article has broader viewpoint.--Seyyed(t-c) 13:38, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Comments: I have read the draft constitution which was under final shape in January 2015. Personally I am of the opinion that present situation has route causes based on socio economics. Thus, it is more appropriate to a title of Civil war rather than a coup. Encyclopedia Britannica provides that: “a coup is a change in power from the top that merely results in the abrupt replacement of leading government personnel. A coup rarely alters a nation’s fundamental social and economic policies, nor does it significantly redistribute power among competing political groups.” See here [2]. An example is 1999 Pakistani coup d'état
Yemeni Civil War (2015) has page length of 80,867 (in bytes), whereas the page length of Aftermath of the 2014–15 Yemeni coup d'état is 46,563 bytes. I have seen pages with approximate length of above 95,000 bytes. Page length issue can be covered in merger process with a concise gist of two texts on the same issue/subject. However, page length issue is a technical concern and cannot be ignored.Nannadeem (talk) 12:43, 19 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Support - When we do eventually have a WP:SIZE issue, we can easily consider splitting the merged parts into a separate "Background of the Yemeni Civil War" article or anything of the same order. But right now I believe it is redundant to have an article focused on the political developments after the coup and another about military confrontations, which kind of constitutes original research, as suggested in a discussion above. Isn't the civil war itself is part of the aftermath? Fitzcarmalan (talk) 22:53, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

complaint @Kudzu1: I also complaint against your behavior. You can not send me warning. Do you think what you say is correct and others don't know anything ?!?!? Oh please be LOGICAL. OK? I wish you have better solution to solve the problems. Regards, Rastegarfar.mo

Oppose There was no conflict during the aftermath of the coup. Only political negotiations and re-negotiations. Some of it can be put in the background section though. EkoGraf (talk) 06:24, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
  • Strongly Oppose - There was no actual conflict between the Houthis and the Yemeni Government forces during the aftermath of the coup (except possibly in 3 cities to the east of Sana'a). Also, the scope of the topic is distinct, and the focus is different from that of the Yemeni Civil War itself, despite their relation. LightandDark2000 (talk) 21:05, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Chronological order[edit]

Why are the order of events in the article ordered by location? It's better to have everything in chronological order. Also, the section about military intervention should be placed before events that happened after it began.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 14:37, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Having them broken down by location makes linking to their specific battle pages easier and more accessible. We can workshop it, but I think convenience and navigibility should be prized over simple chronology, especially as the areas of conflict have changed little since 24 or 25 March. -Kudzu1 (talk) 15:13, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

US providing intelligence/logistical support[edit]

in the intro paragraphs it mentions that the US provided Saudi coalition with Intel and logistics and links to an NYT article. the article does not mention this anywhere. so the citation should be removed. (citation 5) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.151.10.142 (talk) 22:02, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Name consistency[edit]

1. 1994 civil war in Yemen

2. Yemeni Civil War (2015)


Why so??--78.0.1.237 (talk) 13:24, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Damage to historical sites[edit]

http://globalvoicesonline.org/2015/05/31/did-saudi-arabia-bomb-yemens-ancient-marib-dam/

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/06/150603-Yemen-ancient-Sheba-dam-heritage-destruction-Middle-East-archaeology/

http://www.unesco.org/new/en/media-services/single-view/news/unesco_director_general_condemns_airstrikes_on_yemens_cultural_heritage/#.VXH3AEZGR9g

http://www.yourmiddleeast.com/opinion/its-been-done-before-it-can-be-done-again-saving-the-middle-easts-cultural-diversity_32653

19:48, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Israel[edit]

Some users seem to have an obsession with adding Israel in every military infobox on Wikipedia. This time an IP did so citing an article by Veterans Today, which is filled to the brink with holocaust denial and conspiratorial theories. Unless claims of Israeli involvement can be backed by serious, mainstream sources, please stick it with your personal agenda and refrain from inserting them anywhere on Wikipedia. This is vandalism at best. --Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 23:26, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Civilian casualties: what kind of figures do you provide here?[edit]

User:EkoGraf, could you explain, where you got this civilian casualty number "1,630" from? You are citing channelnewsasia.com (http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/yemen-truce-begins-relief/1976692.html), but there is no such number given. And you even claim it was a "UN" number, so why don't you cite the original UN source or at least any reliable source that gives "your" special number. If it exists at all. Greetings,--Anglo-Araneophilus~enwiki (talk) 18:08, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

User:Anglo-Araneophilus~enwiki, source clearly says that according to the UN around half of the overall number of estimated dead are civilians. Half of the confirmed 3,261 is 1,630. PS Please refrain from using talk such as my special number...if it exists at all. Its not per WP: Civil or WP: Good faith. Thank you. EkoGraf (talk) 18:16, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
Just read carefully, you might understand then:
1.) Your source (http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/world/yemen-truce-begins-relief/1976692.html) does not say "3,261", but "3,200". Why do you falsificate again the figure given in your own source?
2.) Even if it was saying "3,261" "around half of them" wouldn't mean "1,630". You give a special, a specified number, where your source does not do.
3.) You just admitted that you constructed your own number and did not use existing figures. This means, the number "1630" never existed but was your personal invention. You showed this kind of behaviour (wrong usage of sources according to the civilian death toll in Yemen) several times ago and I already recommended you to use the original figures of the UN-OHCHR. You'll find the Press Briefing Notes easily there on the home page. So why don't you just use them as recommended? It's completely improper to provide and spread private calculations via Wikipedia.
4.) There is no WP good faith existing that protects falsification of information. Instead of citing WP: Civil or WP: Good faith you should be grateful, if someone informs you when you are giving wrong figures. I never said, you are doing it intentionally. But it is too obvious that you proceed to misuse sources. Greetings,--Anglo-Araneophilus~enwiki (talk) 17:59, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
User:Anglo-Araneophilus~enwiki Not seeing how its falsification when the UN says half of the dead are civilians and the latest confirmed number of dead by the UN is 3,261 (per the 1st of 2 refs cited). I did not construct my own number and I did in fact use existing figures. And its not private calculations when its per WP: CALC (calculated numbers based on sources). Instead of attacking and insulting me, and assuming bad faith from the start, you could have simply requested to change the number from 1,630 to 1,600 (which I would have gladly done as compromise). In any case, this latest report [3] which gives a concrete figure of 1,670 dead civilians per the UN makes this issue effectively resolved and done. EkoGraf (talk) 19:18, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
UN-OHCHR never gave the figure 1,630 for a civilan death toll in Yemen. This was your very own constructed number. You'll find it in no single UN source. I'm not interestet in a horse-trade. There is a good reason, why your source did not (and could not) provide a precise civilian death toll:
1) UN-OHCHR gives precise figures for the civilian death toll since March 26th, that is since begin of the Saudi-led military intervention.
2) UN-WHO and UN-OCHA give no precise figures for the civilian death toll since March 19. From the beginning it was said: "The WHO toll does not distinguish between civilians and fighters."
3) What your source did, was to compare the UN provided overall death toll (since March 19th) with the civilian death toll (since March 26th). That's why it did not give a precise figure, because it wouldn't be correct.
What you tried to construct is simply impossible. There is no precise correct number for the civilian death toll since March 19th existing. If you insist on giving a precise number, you have to cite the UN-OHCHR civilan death toll. The recent (as of July 14 for the period of March 26 to July 13) is: 1,670. The previous figure was 1,528. But there was never a figure existing as your "1,630" or "1,600" or whatever you are trying to launch here without any source. Once again I recommend you to use the original UN websites instead of all your ABC news and channelnewsasia.com and whatever you were digging out in the past. I got the impression, you are simply not understanding the sources and how the figures were generated, what they mean and what they don't mean. I hope you'll act some more precise in future instead of trying to "calculate" formally "precise" but in fact invented figures. Read the sources well. Greetings,--Anglo-Araneophilus~enwiki (talk) 21:14, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
This was your very own constructed number. What you tried to construct is simply impossible. It was all per WP: CALC. horse-trade Nope, its WP: Compromise. In any case. An exact figure/source has been provided now. Regards! EkoGraf (talk) 21:39, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
WP: CALC does not back clear corruption of a UN death toll figure. And WP: Compromise does not help you when you purport a non-existing statistic. Don't use WP rules for improper usage of sources. Better stick to the UN Press Briefing Notes as recommended and you get the civilian death toll for the period since March 26. There is no other UN civilian death toll existing. And you can't calculate a precise figure of a non-existing statistic. This is original research. And even more: it's simply wrong and when you continue to spread false information - in spite of being informed you are doing - it's even disinformation. Don't disinform the encyclopedia's readers in future. Greetings,--Anglo-Araneophilus~enwiki (talk) 05:56, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

map is wrong[edit]

The red faction does not control all of Taiz as shown on the map. Regards.

69.166.122.245 (talk) 17:23, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

title should be renamed to Yemeni war[edit]

This is not a civil war because of direct external parties. Regards.

207.35.219.34 (talk) 20:25, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

I was going to propose the same. I think the best name is (Yemen war 2015) as we have now troops on the ground from Saudi Arabia, UAE and Qatar. not merely Aerial support 3bdulelah (talk) 00:03, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
The presence of foreign troops does not change the identification of this conflict as a civil war. Se Spanish Civil War or Syrian Civil War as an example. --188.79.86.177 (talk) 11:21, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

map needs to update with Qaeda gains in the south[edit]

http://news.antiwar.com/2015/08/06/yemeni-al-qaeda-seizes-three-towns-near-southern-port-of-aden/

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/yemen-officials-al-qaida-seizes-key-areas-aden-33247412

104.243.111.224 (talk) 17:43, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

map also needs to highlight the situation inside Saudi Arabia, where there are now constant fightings and gains by both sides. --188.79.86.177 (talk) 11:21, 26 September 2015 (UTC)