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Meaning of Pandera and Lack of Hebrew/Aramaic Original Text Quotations[edit]

I am curious if the Editors have read the original texts quoted in the Talmud? I'm sure I could grab a copy, but that the Aramaic is not present in the article seems to be a glaring omission. Afterall, a translation is already an intepretation. Also, if Pandera is spelled פנדרה/פנדרא or similar, perhaps its a suggestion to Pandora? Its uncommon for someone to be referred to as son/daughter or a female, but here the meaning would be loaded... if there is any basis for that interpretation... LFevas (talk) 22:08, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Relating Pandera to Pandora requires a showing that the people referring to Pandera have a familiarity with Greek mythology. Greek was prohibited reading among Jews for some time, which Talmud records. It would require a showing why people concerned with Jewish law, history and culture would bother to refer to a particular character from Greek mythology. (talk) 14:02, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

How do you know that reference wasn't added to the Torah at a later time, or referred to just one of the rabbinic communities? Not all Jews had the same Talmud, just as not all Jews had the same Torah translation, Syriac, Samaritan, Babylonian, Aramaic (Proto-Hebrew), Palestinian Aramaic. Hebrew fell out of favor from 600BCE-200CE. I've read entries on Wikipedia of at least one Jewish scholars who did learn Greek. Greek and Aramaic were the primary government languages. Until Rome took over around 20 CE??? Can you really imagine Jewish communities never having government contact? Someone knew Greek. And the most likely people would be the scholars. Jewish math systems could not even count grains of rice accurately. They would have had to have learned Egyptian, Aramaic, or Greek mathematical systems. And from 320BCE forward Greece seemed to control trade with Egypt. So Greek math and science seems more and more likely if there was a scholar who was Jewish in faith then he knew Greek in science, some level of fluency would be needed. DigDeep4Truth (talk) 20:49, 30 January 2014 (UTC)


See the autobiography by Gustav Dalman, a Lutheran, in the Schaff Harzog encyclopedia of religion, volume 4. Dalman called Eisenmenger's work a collection of all that was "repulsive" in Christianity and not at all an accurate representation of Judaism. Eisenmenger claimed he read the Hebrew Talmud but the Talmud is in Hebrew as well as Aramaic. Because of Eisenmenger's limited education, he had to ask people to tell him things which he then warped in his book, according to Dalman. The encyclopedia is online at CCEL. (talk) 23:49, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

True, but it's still notable. The anti-semitic flavour of much 14th-18th century "study" of these Talmud references to Jesus of Nazareth is an important part of why some modern readers will not accept modern scholarship, because modern scholarship is basically saying "these early scholars, some of whom were repulsive anti-semites were regrettably correct, these "Jesus the Nazarene" passages in the Talmud are about the only Jesus the Nazarene we know of". As long as these historical "sources" are boxed off from modern scholarship in the article it isn't a problem. Any more than the wishful denial sources being boxed off. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:31, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 28 January 2015[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. No support for the proposal. Number 57 21:58, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

YeshuYeshu (name) – Redirect Yeshu to Jesus in the Talmud per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for "Yeshu", and name article consistency with Yeshua (name) (see related RM at Talk:Yeshua (disambiguation). Rationale: the article is a subset of Jesus in the Talmud issues, including (a) argument for possible evidence for existence of the name applying to someone else than the obvious Yeshu, (b) references to Jeshu the Nazarene in later Hebrew texts, and therefore this article largely a name-focused WikiProject Anthroponymy article about a personal name. See Yeshua (name). A move may be part of one possible solution to an uncomfortable problem; namely we have 2 articles covering the same subject Jesus in the Talmud, from 2 perspectives (1) acknowledging that "Jeshu the Nazarene" is the same "Jeshu the Nazarene" found in Tertullus' accusation of Paul in the Book of Acts, and various other sources (for obvious reasons Jesus of Nazareth is never referred to as Anointed/Christ/Messiah in Jewish sources) and (2) this article denying that "Jeshu the Nazarene" in the Talmud is the same "Jeshu the Nazarene" as Tertullus', and arguing the existence of another Jeshu - although in all other cases except Jesus of Nazareth the name Joshua/Jeshua is always written fully with the -ya (for -Yahweh) in Hebrew. This subject is sensitive, the discovery of the "Jeshu the Nazarene" passages in the Talmud was a key Christian pretext in the Disputation of Paris (1240) for persecution and murder for much of the middle ages. The charge (effectively our article 1) was denied by rabbi Yechiel of Paris (taking the view of our article 2, this article). So this a complicated and potentially sensitive topic, but one where input from listing it on WP:RM should attract editors who are neutral about the history. --Relisted. Sunrise (talk) 07:45, 5 February 2015 (UTC) In ictu oculi (talk) 01:21, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Comment, As far as I understand it, this is a charged topic in either way it may be presented. I tend to think that the current situation presents things most neutrally. GregKaye 16:07, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

A Point[edit]

I have just read the Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a), and it doesn't say anything like that... I think that the next paragraph is a mistake and should be removed or someone should put another source..

"According to the Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) the name is generally believed to be an acronym for י = Yimaḥ ש = Shĕmo ו = Wezikhro = meaning, May his name and memory be stricken out.[1]-- (talk) 18:28, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

  1. ^ Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a)