Talk:York

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Good article York has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
Date Process Result
April 17, 2009 Good article nominee Not listed
July 4, 2009 Peer review Reviewed
August 6, 2009 Good article nominee Listed
Current status: Good article
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Economy section[edit]

Am I alone in finding the Economy section repetitive and in places incoherent (e.g. "Since the closure ..." - closure of what? Probably the railway works, but that's a couple of paras higher up)? It's as if someone shoved a whole lot of new stuff in without checking whether it was in a suitable place. I might get round to sorting this out and copy-editing, but not any time soon, so feel free... --GuillaumeTell (talk) 22:27, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I edited the 'largest employers' section last week, but someone undid the edits. Portakabin only employs 600 people in York. Only when combined with its parent company Shepherd would Portakabin be considered one of the largest employers. University of York now employs over 3,200 and should therefore be mentioned.RandallGhent (talk) 10:16, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I must own up I think it was me that reverted but the changes were not supported by the existing reference. If you can supply a reliable reference for the changes that you are providing then fine otherwise we will have to stay with the information as quoted in the reference we have. Keith D (talk) 12:35, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
Just spotted the extra reference but cannot check detail as it is timing out at the moment. Keith D (talk) 12:50, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
The reference provided does check out. The other ref is for Jan 2008 and York Uni has expanded lately.--Harkey (talk) 13:40, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Can someone explain/check the reference to Virgin Galactic? As a York resident of 20 years I'm pretty sure there is no Virgin Galactic office in the city. I can also find no other source of information to suggest that the office exists. I assume it is subtle vandalism. 82.69.69.123 (talk) 23:10, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

New photo[edit]

Is fantastic, good job to whoever added it. - Yorkshirian (talk) 00:48, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Climate section[edit]

The text in this section is way out. It might be better to use the BBC reference as a basis for the climate chart as High Mowthorpe is not representative of the Vale of York as its closer to the Wolds.

The ref at [1] says:

Summer temperatures in York can get up to 32°C (90°F) during the day, although nights drop down to 15°C (60°F). During winter, York's climate averages 5°C (42°F), dropping down to -6°C (20°F) overnight. Snow sometimes falls in December and it may snow occasionally until March.

Shall I alter the section?--Harkey (talk) 15:45, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Book references[edit]

There are several references to books or publications given but there is no indication of the page number that the information can be found on. Has anyone got access to these books or publications and can complete the appropriate page details for the references? Thanks. Keith D (talk) 11:10, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Ham[edit]

I suggest include information about York ham (cooked sliced ham) [2]. --Nukeless 13:43, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

15 March 2012: There is too many hams! (The word) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.56.155.9 (talk) 22:46, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Simply York[edit]

I was looking to add SimplyYork.com to the external links section on the York page, but an editor has removed the link.

SimplyYork.com has been going a year now and unlike most dirctory sites it provides free links to the websites of any business in York, making it a good old comprehensive source when searching for restaurants, estate agents etc in the city. You also don't just get an address and phone number with website links only for the one or two companies that have paid.

I would invite another editor to repost the link if they too feel it would be a worth while addition and resource.

86.136.237.63 (talk) 19:52, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Being just a collection of links to businesses it falls well short of our external links policy and so I would expect it to be removed from the article if reposted. Keith D (talk) 20:17, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

I can respect an editorial decision for Wikipedia (even if I don't understand it) however I'd hope you'd provide true comment on our site. It is more than "just a collection of links to businesses", we have spent hundreds of hours qualifying sites to make sure there are hundreds of links to resources such as local weather, train times for specific local stations, cinema times direct from local cinemas, and countless clubs and societies and sites of special interest, really picking out the best of the web locally thus making it relevant. To quote an email in yesterday from the Princess Theatre in Torquay with respect to the Simply Torquay site; "Your site is lovely! easy to understand nice and clear...".

86.136.166.70 (talk) 12:24, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

It would be nice if this attempt at qualifying the site was an original idea, but it's actually the very opposite. - Dudesleeper / Talk 12:25, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure what was meant by this last comment? The site is the result of a lot of hard work, and very popular, and is valued by a lot of people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.166.70 (talk) 20:55, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
That's nice, and I'm happy for you, but Keith D explained the reasons above. - Dudesleeper / Talk 22:30, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Which I accept, adding the site would cause some kind of editorial problem as its commercial...so now we are settled can we now take this conversation off the site? Would appreciate it if you could do that... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.166.70 (talk) 10:11, 29 November 2008 (UTC) 86.136.166.70 (talk) 10:17, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
For what reason? - Dudesleeper / Talk 12:02, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
It needs to be kept here for future reference. We'll have this discussion to reference. Rehevkor 15:20, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Future reference for what? The Simply sites represents a lot of hard work and it is peoples livelihood you are playing with...why try and hurt that? The comments made about our site weren't correct and so I've asked for it to be removed? I've dropped a line to wikimedia asking for this to be resolved, but I'm hoping this can be resolved between us, and so I'd please request again these are removed? Kind Regards
86.136.166.70 (talk) 16:13, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Future reference for when someone else comes along wanting to add their site, on which they have worked very hard. - Dudesleeper / Talk 16:27, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
But that would be referred back to the editorial policy would it not, surely not comments about our site which arent correct? Again this is peoples livelihoods you are messing around with, why do that? It doesn't place Wikipedia in a good light by keeping on comments made which aren't true? I don't want to be in an argument, I'm just asking for some incorrect comments which could hurt our business to be removed from your website? Thanks in advance for any help with this.
86.136.166.70 (talk) 16:37, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Nah, it saves re-hashing the same conversations again. - Dudesleeper / Talk 16:59, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Where there are comments on this talk page which you believe are incorrect, then add your comments to correct the information (you've done so above, already, in fact). That's the Wikipedia way of doing things, not deleting past comments. PamD (talk) 17:29, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Well I'm left pretty cold by this, and my previous belief in the wikipedia editorial system has totally gone if honest. I don't see how if an editor makes an incorrect comment that is found to offend, that it doesnt get removed. On a personal level, I'd not want to spend my days being derogatory about other people's hard work, or do something which makes an impact on peoples livelihoods, I'm just sorry that there are people around that might want to do that, and its sad reflection in wikipedia that they can become editors of this website. I'd have to say if I'd known this in advance I'd not have wanted our sites linked from Wikipedia. I would have thought at the very least I was entitled to remove my own contributions, is that not the case?

86.136.166.70 (talk) 20:56, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure how you think some passing comments on a Wikipedia talk page will have such a detrimental effect on your business? Rehevkor 21:01, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

If it's incorrect description by an editor puts one potential user off or one advertiser off the site then it has had a detrimental effect. It would be lovely to live in a world where nobody is influenced by comment but that is not the case, hence when the tabloids come out on the side of one or other polictical party it can decide an election regardless of policy. If comment had no effect, then there would not be a PR industry.

86.136.166.70 (talk) 21:17, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Take a read of WP:TALK. The comments above were not intended as an insult on any level but were mealy a opinion and/or observation, so there's no policy that covers it's removal. If you choose to take offence to it then you've already done the right thing in correcting the statement. Further than that, the discussion will not be deleted. If you're left cold I would suggest you read up on Wikipedia policy and guidelines before contributing (or removing contributions). It's just how things work here, it's nothing personal. Rehevkor 21:27, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand. What "incorrect description" do you feel so damaged by? You edited Wikipedia articles to promote your business, and editors removed it and were not gushing with praise for your website. OK, so what? A great benefit of Wikipedia is its transparent and open editorial process. It's not at all clear, then, that we should censor our internal discussion simply because you're now embarrassed at the luke-warm reception your website received... — Matt Crypto 21:56, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Matt we get enough great feedback not to worry about luke warm feedback as that will happen with any site, it's just an incorrect description that I'd hoped someone would have the sense to remove it together with this thread as its a waste of space on a page which could be used to debate so much more interesting information about York which is an amazing city. You guys dont have to make your living from Wikipedia, we do from our sites so I'm sorry if we appear sensitive. I don't know what you do but if you were surgeon and someone described you as just a guy who uses a knife, you might feel the need to say something. Anyway this is all getting silly and I really don't want to loose faith in the people that edit this site.

86.136.166.70 (talk) 22:11, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I just want to apologise to anyone who has started reading this thread as if you’ve got to this point then by now you’ve probably come to the conclusion that you’ve just wasted the last couple of minutes of your life. I know what you’re thinking, in that two minutes you could have read a classic poem, enjoyed some great art, listened to some moving music, or even called a love one and told them how you feel about them - but you read this and it’s indicative of the internet today, so much rubbish out there which hangs around for years and years, making it harder for people to find something which might actually prove of interest. I did ask for it to be removed but that was out of my hands…so just don’t waste your next two minute hey…

86.136.166.70 (talk) 21:44, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

I doubt people read talk pages to find things of interest, unless you count drama. The article space is that way ----> Rehevkor 21:49, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Yeh hopefully the search engines don't pickup on these kind of pages...I thought your page was good by the way Matthew, very concise no delusions of grandeur… just enough to let people know you are an interesting guy and have a life.

86.136.166.70 (talk) 22:00, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Images[edit]

A reduction or relocation of Images may be required as some are clashing with heading and info boxes/tables. Have tqeaked it with {{-}} in a couple of places, and moved some up on short paragraphs and one to the left as a fix (but not ideal). ( display is obviously effected by user settings and monitor choice, so may look fine to one editor and not others). But the general lay out with blocks of images in sections may need reviewing. Note the EL section looks rather large as well ? Are they all needed/valid entries ? --BulldozerD11 (talk) 21:19, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Connection to New York[edit]

If this city's name was influence behind New York's name, that should be mentioned here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.152.246.2 (talk) 09:20, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Not sure that's true. New York took the name, it's not as if York gave it to them. - Dudesleeper / Talk 09:24, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

If you take a look at the history of New York i think you will find it was named after the Duke of York and Albany when the English reconquered the area from the Dutch and not directly from the city itself. Rimmer1993 18:15, 13 June 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rimmer1993 (talkcontribs)

GA Status[edit]

Looking at the boxes above, there was some talk at the start of 2007 about getting this article nominated for Good Article status, and it was felt that the infobox needed organising and some other tweaks to the text, then it could be put up for a peer review.

I've compared the infobox to the one for Featured Article Manchester, and made a couple of minor tweaks but otherwise it's pretty much identical, so it seems that our infobox is good.

One thing I'd like to alter is that the photo of Stonegate is a little lopsided, seems to be tilted slightly to the right - next sunny day I'll pop out with my camera and see if I can do any better.

Anyone have any other comments, or is it worth submitting the article? Since I first started looking at the article in 2006, it's come in in leaps and bounds and all here can be proud of their work! Brickie (talk) 14:33, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:York/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Notes:

Toponymy

  • "The most widely accepted theory is therefore..." sounds very weaselly, even if it is the most widely accepted theoryYes check.svg Done --Harkey (talk) 16:00, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
  • "The name 'Eboracum' became 'Eoforwic' to the Anglian rulers of the 7th century." I'm not sure what that means - "became to the rulers..."?Yes check.svg Done --Harkey (talk) 16:00, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Two final sentences are unreferenced.

Post conquest:

  • "William the Conqueror at once built two fortresses on mottes in the city, either side of the river - still visible." This sentence needs work.Yes check.svg Done --Harkey (talk) 16:00, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Modern history:

  • I'm not sure an external link in the middle of a sentence is appropriate. I'm not sure the name of the section is suitable either - it won't always be modern.Yes check.svg Done --Harkey (talk) 16:00, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Local government:

  • First three parts are unreferenced, as is the last paragraph. I'm not sure the first paragraph should stand on its own.Yes check.svg Done
  • "The Liberal Democrats have 20 councillors and in May 2007 they formed a minority administration, and an executive of 9 councillors and the Labour Party formed the Opposition with 18 councillors." Sentence is far too long, and all those ands do not help it flow well.Yes check.svg Done
  • National government/law courts/twin cities all unreferenced.

Location:

  • "York lies within the Vale of York, a flat area of fertile arable land bordered by the Pennines, the North York Moors and the Yorkshire Wolds, at the confluence of the Rivers Ouse and Foss on a terminal moraine left by the last Ice Age" is one long sentence, please split it up or reword it so it flows better.Yes check.svg Done

City districts and surrounding villages:

  • Too listy - needs more prose there. Doing... --Harkey (talk) 17:58, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done --Harkey (talk) 08:33, 12 June 2009 (UTC) Climate:

  • "In summer the average maximum temperature is 22 °C (72 °F) although some days can see highs of up to 28 °C (82 °F) but nights are significantly colder averaging minimum of 15 °C (60 °F), although these can consistently dip below 10 °C (50 °F) on colder summer nights." Two althoughs in one sentence, please reword or split.Yes check.svg Done

Demography:

  • Needs huge expansion...Yes check.svg Done

Economy:

  • Again, I'm not sure it is appropriate to have external links like that in the middle of prose.Yes check.svg Done

Education:

  • Mostly unsourced, with two citation needed tags.Yes check.svg Done
  • "The University of York also boasts..." sounds like something out of a travel guide...Yes check.svg Done
  • "specialising in more vocational subjects such as Horticulture, Agriculture, Animal Management and even Golf Course Management." Why are the subjects capitalised?Yes check.svg Done
  • "In January 2009 the school hopes to move back to the Oaklands site on Cornlands Road." Did they? Didn't they? Please update.Yes check.svg Done

Road transport:

  • Spelling of "mediaevel" ought to be consistent throughout.Yes check.svg Done --Harkey (talk) 17:32, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
  • No reference for first paragraph.

Air transport:

  • "Elvington's long runway means that it would be suitable for such use - indeed, the site is used as an alternate landing site for the Space Shuttle." Needs restructuring and a source. CUTYes check.svg Done --Harkey (talk) 17:32, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Local public transport:

  • Second part is very listy.Yes check.svg Done

Sites of interest:

  • Only two references.Yes check.svg Done More added.--Harkey (talk) 08:33, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Theatre:

  • "York has a number of theatres, the Theatre Royal, the Grand Opera House and Joseph Rowntree Theatre." Is that all of them, or just some? The sentence isn't complete.Yes check.svg Done --Harkey (talk) 17:59, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Section is unsourced.Yes check.svg Done --Harkey (talk) 17:59, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Music/Media/Sports:

  • No references, and media has a tag. Doing...--Harkey (talk) 08:33, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done --Harkey (talk) 17:32, 12 June 2009 (UTC) Noted York people:

  • Should be put into prose, rather than a list. CUTYes check.svg Done --Harkey (talk) 17:32, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

This is good so far, and is well-deserving of its B-class tag, but I'm sorry to say I don't think this is near enough GA quality.

  • 1a - clear prose. I think it does this for the most part, but I have highlighted a few problems I spotted, and there are probably more I missed.
  • 1b - again, mostly, but there are some listy sections, and odd paragraph cuts.
  • 2a and b - there are numerous sections that lack any kind of sources, and there are a few citation needed tags. I don't believe it passes this.
  • 2c - again, I don't know, because numerous parts are unsourced.
  • 3a - possibly. I saw no mention at all of Treasurer's House, which I visited the other week, which was disappointing.
  • 3b - I think this is ok.
  • 4 - some parts sound as though they are from a travel guide - and there are/were cases of unnecessary usage of adjectives, which I've removed instances of when I saw them.
  • 5 - passes this ok.
  • 6 - I think the images are great.

So, this is a decent article, but I don't think it is quite ready for GA status quite yet. I notice there has been no peer review for this article - it really could do with a thorough copyedit from a third party, in addition to fixing the issues above. Good luck with it, Majorly talk 21:17, 17 April 2009 (UTC)


Education section[edit]

A consensus is needed on York Education. Are only schools in York to be allowed, or schools whose catchment is York. If the former, surely moderators can't be selective based on which they think the most "notable" schools are? Is this a Wikipedia State?! It would be a good idea to place a policy on here, instead of moderators ganging up on contributors and flouting the 3 revert rules between them. Tomtolkien (talk) 22:20, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

I would suggest that as a rule of thumb, those notable to have their own articles on WP could get a mention in the section on this page, as per WP:BUILD. I don't feel we need red links just to prove a WP:POINT. For those schools outside of the city, evidence from a WP:RS should be used to determine that it is relevant to the city (i.e. the catchment area issue). As the article says, there are over 55 schools in the "City" - I guess those "historically notable" are important enough to get further coverage here (St Peter's for example). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mdcollins1984 (talkcontribs) 22:46, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Following on from GA review[edit]

I've started working my way through the various sections. Help with demography and ref checking would be appreciated, please.--Harkey (talk) 16:04, 17 May 2009 (UTC)--Harkey (talk) 15:51, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

I would now like help/advice with the following, please.
  • From Section 17 (External links) onwards seems to be rather "weighty". Too much of a good thing.
  • Advice on who to include in the York#Noted York people section when I convert the list to prose.

Thank you--Harkey (talk) 09:09, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

For the noted York people, I would suggest writing about only: a) those people who are nationally well-known (and in the case of living persons, likely to remain well-known) b) People who are initmately associated with York (rather than just born there).
I would suggest the following people:
  • Alcuin (b)
  • Guy Fawkes (a)
  • George Hudson (b)
  • The Rowntree family in general (b)
  • WH Auden (a)
  • Frankie Howerd (a)
  • Judi Dench (a)
  • Martin Rees (a) and....
  • Steve McLaren, if you are feeling generous.
For the external links, I would just cull the first two sections completely. The academic/media sites don't really add a lot. Maybe leave The Press in, but the others aren't necessary. The history/photos sections are useful for people wanting to find more about York, so I would leave them in. MinisterForBadTimes (talk) 09:56, 12 June 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. I think I'll go for linking the people you mention in the body of the article. Generous er.. em.. :-) --Harkey (talk) 15:36, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Peer review follow on[edit]

Comment in the peer review about the gallery was:

Photo gallery

MOS:IMAGES generally deprecates galleries unless some special reason exists to include one. I don't believe a gallery is needed here. You have many excellent images embedded in the text as well as a link to a gallery on the Commons.

so I have removed the photo gallery.--Harkey (talk) 15:16, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

History section comment was:

Quick comment: I think the history section is far too detailed for a summary style section. The article is over 90 kilobytes long, and moving some of the content to History of York seems appropriate. User:Jafeluv

In view of the importance of history and historic sites in York, I'm not sure I can agree with this. What do others think?--Harkey (talk) 16:57, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

OK. So the History is going to have to be condensed. Pity because it has some interesting bits and it's all relevant to visitors and gives context to some of the historic sites.--Harkey (talk) 15:45, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

My 2 pennies: it seems a reasonable length to me as it stands. York is a historic city -- much more significant historically than as a contemporary city -- so it's not wholly inappropriate to have a correspondingly large section in the main article. Before History, I'd consider trimming "Transport", "Education", "Culture", "Sport" etc. — Matt Crypto 15:55, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Thank you. I've gone ahead with GA review with History section intact.--Harkey (talk) 19:00, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

Former walled city?[edit]

In what way is "York ... a former walled city"? It is a walled city. What's meant by "former", and how many cities other than York that have retained their walls are "former walled cities"? Enquiring minds want to know. --GuillaumeTell 23:27, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

NB there is also a Category:Walled towns, which includes Chester. --GuillaumeTell 23:32, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
Sorry, my attempt to clarify the fact that the walls are an historic defensive feature of York, rather than a current one, has obviously fallen foul of the sensitivities of enquiring minds. Please feel free, as ever on Wikipedia, to modify the wording and add York to Category:Walled towns. I shall not take offence.--Harkey (talk) 07:53, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
OK, I've removed "former". I don't think that there are very many cities around these days whose walls still function as defensive features. Category:Walled towns is currently sparsely populated and I've refrained from adding York to it, at least for now. --GuillaumeTell 00:21, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
Thank you. I think I was trying too hard to think of readers in less developed/informed areas of the world who might get the wrong idea!!--Harkey (talk) 07:56, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Gastronomy <> Betty's[edit]

The second half of the Gastronomy section is an advert for Betty's. While Betty's certainly warrants a (brief) mention, so do many other establishments. --Jameboy (talk) 23:37, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Certainly, it was not added as an advert. Bettys is an iconic tearoom of its era and a "must do" for many visitors to York.--Harkey (talk) 16:52, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Music section[edit]

The current section seems to exclude a lot of the music scene, especially those genres favoured by the under 50s. I'm wondering how contemporary music venues such as City Screen Basement Bar, Fibbers and The Duchess could be fit into the mix, whilst still maintaining the citation format. 144.32.126.14 (talk) 12:29, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:York/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Overall, this article is in excellent shape! I can see that the comments from the previous GA review were taken well, and mostly used to improve the article substantially. So that makes the second review much, much easier! Here's how it stands up against the six GA criteria:

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:

The article also matches up well with, and is overall agreement with, the guidelines of WP:UKCITIES. One possible suggestion might be to alter the article's order of sections slightly. For example, with US and north american cities, we're finding that it's better to promote the 'culture' section in the order a bit, usually right after the 'economy' section. The sections on 'government', 'education' and 'transportation' are usually best if included near the end of the article, as their mostly more infrastructure-related. 'History', 'geography', 'demographics' ('demography'?), and 'economy' are some of the most important sections, and should always be first (we're mostly in agreement here, except for the government part).

I also noticed a few sentences were commas should be added to help improve readability. I fixed some of them, but it might help to have someone go through it again and sprinkle a few more about. This is fairly minor though, and not worthy of holding up GA.

Overall, the article is in great shape and can be promoted. Nice work! Dr. Cash (talk) 14:57, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Broken links[edit]

WildBot has identified a couple of broken piped links to #sections of article (see box above TOC on this page). I've changed Local government in England#Councils and councillors to Local government in England#Councils and mayors but couldn't decide what to do about [[Education in England#Qualifications|academic qualifications]], which appeared in the Demographics section - "Of those aged 16–74 in York, 24.6% had no academic qualifications". There's now no section #Qualifications in Education in England and there is no single section there that describes academic qualifications (which seems to mean everything from GCSEs at 16 upwards to PhDs and professional qualifications). I can't find another suitable article to point to, so, for now, I've simply removed the offending link. One possible solution might be just linking to Education in England, but qualifications are scattered around in the article so I'm not sure that linking would help much. Is there another article that could be linked to? I couldn't find one (and Qualification doesn't help - neither Professional certification nor GCSE is suitable). --GuillaumeTell 11:31, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Topo whatever[edit]

I humbly beg that we throw out this word, on the grounds that nobody ever uses it and very few (myself included) know, without looking it up, what it is meant to convey (some may claim that at least academics use it - I doubt it, to be honest). The Webster's definition is "the place-names of a region or language or especially the etymological study of them"; i.e., either the totality of the place names in a region or an academic activity, but NOT the derivation of any specific place name, which, I humbly suggest, is quite simply "etymology" (which is also, imho, high-fallutin' enough, but at least it's right!).Maelli (talk) 10:09, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Well, if you look at Toponymy, it says there: "Toponymy is the scientific study of place names (toponyms) ... Toponymy is distinct, though often confused with etymology, which is the study of the history of languages themselves ... According to the Oxford English Dictionary, the word "toponymy" first appeared in English in 1876; since then, toponym has come to replace "place-name" in professional discourse among toponymists". So "etymology" isn't quite right, but we aren't exactly professional toponymists (and Wikipedia, of course, isn't always a Reliable Source). Perhaps we could change the section-header to something like "Origin of the name "York" and put "toponymy" - with a link to the article - in the text? I have a feeling, however, that there may be lots and lots of other articles that have Toponomy as a section-header - London#Toponomy, hmm! Paris#Etymology, double hmm!! Maybe this should be taken up at WP:CITIES? --GuillaumeTell 10:44, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
WP:UKCITIES indicates it can be either etymology or toponymy. Keith D (talk) 12:21, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Coordinates[edit]

Lat long .... cinder lane is behind the railway station and outside the city walls.

53.958346,-1.080874 is far more generic central york for mapping purposes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.177.70.141 (talk) 14:07, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Good observation. I've updated the coordinates. Thanks, Northumbrian (talk) 14:41, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Disambiguation required[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Clearly no consensus for a move to implement a DAB page. Keith D (talk) 23:48, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

There are FAR too many important York's for this particular one to be deemed a primary topic. York (disambiguation) belongs at this title. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 17:05, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

There are a lot of subjects but I suspect you can argue that an almost two thousand year old (past capital) city is the primary topic. But I guess I'm biased, I'll let other editors chime in. Rehevkor 17:26, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

But for the 2000 year old city I suspect there would be no other Yorks. Use some common sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.197.53.142 (talk) 17:31, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps Floydian could tell us which of the other Yorks on the dab page (s)he thinks ought to be the primary topic. None of them self-evidently stands out, AFAICS. --GuillaumeTell 17:42, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
Yeah. If Floydian really feels a move is required we'll need a little more than that. Rehevkor 17:45, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
None of them are the primary topic, hence why the dab should appear when one looks up "York". Age is irrelevant - the aims of readers attempting to find any given York take precedence. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 17:55, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
Age and historic significance is defiantly a factor in deciding if something is the primary topic. Rehevkor 18:02, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
And why pick on York? What about London or Manchester or Edinburgh or Dublin? --GuillaumeTell 18:06, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
Both factors together, perhaps. Age alone, however, is not a factor in determining the primary topic. York is historically significant in many other regards. For example, Toronto was known as York when it was first established. It may not be 2000 years old, but it is indeed very historically significant. In no way do I believe that York, Upper Canada should be here. However, the fact remains that to the non-British world, "York" often refers to a local York, and not to the British city. The listed cities are (with the exception of Manchester, practically a household name around the world) global cities. York is not. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 18:14, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
You seem to be doing this a lot, Floydian - taking the names of towns in Ontario and arguing about the disambiguation pages. The York in Yorkshire is clearly the primary topic, regardless of how many other tiny places there are in the world called York. Of course, it receives far more traffic than all the others put together. Hits for the disambiguation page last month = 1175, and hits for this page = 50,988. It doesn't look like there are many people who come here by mistake. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:38, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
It sounds like Mr Floydian is trying to address what he perceives to be a wider issue that is best addressed in a larger venue rather than so many individual talk pages. Rehevkor 19:12, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
This is clearly a wider issue of "British cities are more important than their international counterparts because they are older". Page counts just don't make sense here. Someone searching for York, Ontario, or for all places named York, or for York in Australia or the ~17 York's in the United States, will all arrive at and increase the pagecount of this article, and then may not go on to the disambiguation page. Let me offer an example of how even clear primary topics can be disambiguated to this eternal assurance of "Sorry, ours is the primary topic":
Wish You Were Here is an album released by Pink Floyd, as well as a song released by several artists, and an album by another band. The album, containing the song, and being the oldest of the releases, should be the primary topic according to the logic argued on these pages. Why isn't it? Because primary topics are only used in situations where there is absolutely no doubt. After lengthy discussion, almost every album that shares a title now points to its disambiguation page, and not to the clearly more popular album. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 19:50, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
Then seek a wider audience. The majority of people who watch this page are unlikely to agree with you. Rehevkor 19:54, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
Oh, I see you already have. Why branch out to individual articles when there's already a discussion on going at a larger venue? Rehevkor 19:59, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
Because its rather stale with little input (siding in either direction) and the general idea I've gotten from those responses is that its a minor enough situation to pursue on the individual articles. Fact remains though that I will always be at a loss challenging local residents with dethroning their municipality. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 20:01, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

[Outdenting] Floydian says "Page counts just don't make sense here. Someone searching for York, Ontario, or for all places named York, or for York in Australia or the ~17 York's in the United States, will all arrive at and increase the pagecount of this article, and then may not go on to the disambiguation page." The logic of this is difficult to discern. Why, if they aren't looking for York in England but some other York, don't they follow the link to the disambiguation page when they arrive at a page that isn't the one they want?

As well as page-counts, it would be interesting to know how many pages link to each of the York articles. Is there some handy tool that will tell us this? --GuillaumeTell 20:35, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Why on earth would someone looking for York, Alabama and who has come to this page by mistake not then go on to the disambiguation page? Did they suddenly change their minds? There is no logic whatsoever in that assumption. The fact remains that almost everyone coming to this page is looking for the York in Yorkshire, which is why this page is so named. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:08, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
AFAIK, this is a well documented human tendency, and a known wikipedia behaviour. You arrive at the wrong article, but just read it, and go off on a tangent elsewhere. Half an hour later you may end up going back to look for York, Alabama again, or you may be on another subject in another part of the world. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 14:17, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
I have to say, I couldn't agree with you less. I wouldn't do that, and I don't see why anyone else would either. Or maybe you have some evidence for it. Bretonbanquet (talk) 17:36, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
The pooterish quality of elements of this discussion has brighten up my day significantly almost-instinct 22:29, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Speaking as an American who's spent more time in York, Ontario, than in all of the UK, all I can say is: Of course this is the primary page! All other Yorks are named after this city, and it has a long presence in history and literature. Anyone meaning to go elsewhere and arriving here will smack their forehead, say, of course 'York' brings me here; what was I thinking? and move on to the dab page. — kwami (talk) 01:39, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

Oppose I would have thought that because this is the English section of Wikipedia that York, North Yorkshire would be the Primary topic as there are no other major places called York in England, there is a hamlet in Lancashire called York, Lancashire, but this it is a very small place and probably would not make much difference to this discussion Homan's Copse (talk) 19:28, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
Uh, let's not go over the top here! This is the English-language Wikipedia. The article Boston correctly identifies Boston, Massachusetts, rather than Boston, Lincolnshire, as the primary topic. Similarly, Melbourne is the city in Australia, not the town in Derbyshire, Christchurch is the city in New Zealand, not the town in Dorset, and so on. --GuillaumeTell 21:22, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
Oppose - This is getting even more silly now do you want to rename everywhere on this page? Likelife (talk) 14:15, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
But they aren't the most important place with that name, they may be the first but all you stated are far larger and are more important cities. All places which have been highlighted for renaming are the most important i.e York, Cambridge, Peterborough, Sydenham & Cornwall.Likelife (talk) 08:31, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Oppose - the arguments on number of hits is not convincing as it assumes knowledge of what the searcher was looking for in the first place, which unless we can see what his immediate next search was, we will never know. As far as I know, these stats are not available, please correct me if I am wrong. What should be taken into account is the WP:PRIMARY TOPIC guidelines. Whilst not yet showing on the constantly evolving Vital article list (which it should in my opinion), it is the only city on the York disambiguation page that has GA status and High importance in Wiki Project for Cities (which is for cities all over the world). All the others are either Stub, Start and nearly all low or not rated on importance. The two US exceptions are only of higher rating within the respective State Projects.Rimmer1993 (talk) 22:08, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

  • Oppose This is getting tedious. No case has been presented for a move. GyroMagician (talk) 08:12, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose I agree that no coherant case has been presented for a move and this is part of another tedious campaign on Wikipedia.--Harkey (talk) 17:01, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Per everyone else. Can the editor who started all of this nonsense please stop wasting everyone's time, apply a little common sense and work on something more useful? Ericoides (talk) 22:57, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

strange law[edit]

Apparently "In York, excluding Sundays, it is perfectly legal to shoot a Scotsman with a bow and arrow." http://www.nowpublic.com/world/hey-its-sunday-lets-go-kill-scotsman-archaic-british-laws-1. Maybe this should be added to someplace in the article --helohe (talk) 10:33, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Please don't be facetious. It's obviously not legal to shoot a Scotsman with a deadly weapon in York at all. For 303 years England and Scotland have been united. Derp. PBF1974 (talk) 19:14, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

This is one of those legends - supposedly it's one of those things that's never been repealed. In any case, it's a good story. But it's poorly sourced (there are laws on that list that have definitely been repealed) and even if it's accurate in theory you probably wouldn't get away with it in practice. Pfainuk talk 19:47, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
The same story exists about Chester and Welshmen. Legend I think is indeed the word. --Ian Dalziel (talk) 19:52, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Same incident of persecution of Jews mentioned twice[edit]

The murder of several hundred Jews is mentioned twice, once under "Post Conquest" and once under "Culture." I think this constitutes undue weight. Also, I question the use of the word "pogrom," which is a Russian word, AFAIK, and shouldn't be used for an episode of religious oppression in England in the Middle Ages. Come to think of it, there was lots of oppression in the Middle Ages in England. I'd like to know what makes this particularly important. From a more subjective standpoint, this kind of random trivia makes me feel a kind of "P.C. fatigue" that fails to make me feel sorry for the Jews of 800+ years ago and makes me resent the person who included it for making me have to think about this and read it not once, but TWICE. Even though I'm resentful, I'm still assuming that this was done in good faith, for obvious reasons. PBF1974 (talk) 19:12, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Now that this event has been thoroughly covered in the York Castle article, we can certainly reduce the coverage here to one short mention and a link. I'll do that later on this evening if no-one beats me to it. --GuillaumeTell 23:00, 24 December 2010 (UTC)
That would be really super. Thanks a bunch. PBF1974 (talk) 01:43, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
Now done - zapped the stuff in the Culture section (a massacre doesn't sound like Culture to me) and reduced the post-Conquest section - people who want to know more can use the links to the castle and 12th century English pogroms. --GuillaumeTell 11:26, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Pronunciation[edit]

Hey there, great article!

My observation as a phonetician would be that in my experience, people from York do not say [jO:k] (Sampa), as figures in your article, but rather [jo:k]. Can that be? Since it says "local", one could change the IPA according to that.

92.226.63.138 (talk) 14:31, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

E1
Blimey, yes, and that sound clip is distinctly un-Yorkish, even given the politeness of York's Yorkshire accent. 92.0.208.26 (talk) 23:18, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the above two comments: however, as an amateur phonetician I would argue that locally, and across much of Yorkshire, the vowel in the word York is pronounced closer to, but not the same as, 'yark'. (Apologies, I can't make the correct phonetic symbol for this.) One year on Wikipedia and still no change! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.218.170.4 (talk) 19:30, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

"North" Yorkshire?[edit]

Now that it's a unitary authority, is there any justification at all for saying York is in North Yorkshire? Historically it's the only part of Yorkshire which isn't in one of the three ridings, and on those occasions where it has to be counted in one of them, it's usually put with the East Riding as far as I know. Or am I missing something? 92.0.208.26 (talk) 23:15, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

The ridings were abolished in 1974 (although the East Riding reappeared in 1996), and the modern-day counties have significantly different boundaries. Although York is no longer in the administrative county of North Yorkshire, it's still in the ceremonial county of North Yorkshire. See the North Yorkshire article and its map at the bottom of the infobox on the right side. -- Dr Greg  talk  23:48, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Article lead is over-long[edit]

MOS:LEAD recommends no more than four paragraphs in the lead section of an article. This article has no fewer than ten paragraphs, which is way too long. Need to move the more detailed information down into the article, and more aggressively summarise the lead. -- chris_j_wood (talk) 12:02, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Done. Now only four paragraphs. Arguably a couple of the paragraphs are a bit long, but I'll leave that problem to somebody else. -- chris_j_wood (talk) 13:38, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
Looks good to me. Rehevkor 16:22, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

York Union Banking Company[edit]

Am surprised that there is no mention in the article of the impressive building at 1-3 Parliment Sereet, now occupied by Barclays Bank, and occupied in the 1880s by The York Union Bank. This appeared in the York Press in February 2011: [3]. I wonder does anyone have any information on the York Union Banking Company, or on the York and County Banking Company, which might be usefully added to the History section of this article? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:47, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Coverage of buildings and streets in York is patchy. The present building dates back only to 1901. Pevsner and Neave (Buildings of England series) say: "Barclays Bank at the S end [of Parliament Street] is very red and Waterhousish, by Edmund Kirby of Liverpool, 1901, Gothic to Early Renaissance, of brick and terracotta with polished granite plinth." Well, at least there's a link to the WP article on the architect, and Barclays Bank appears in the table there together with refs. I'll see if I can find anything about the defunct banks that you mention. --GuillaumeTell 23:48, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
Many thanks for the Pevsner quote. I think that probably makes the building notable for inclusion somewhere. But was Barclays the client in 1901? I see that they didn't really start to expand until 1918. And perhaps you could remind us who Waterhouse was? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:37, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
  • I was in that very Barclays this afternoon, but I've no idea whether anyone there would know anything about its history (probably not is my feeling). Maybe it was one of the small English banks taken over by Barclays between 1905 and 1916? What's required to get a definitive answer is street directories of the period - Google books or similar may have some online. It's a Grade II listed building, see description here (alas, no history)
  • On the banks you mention up above, Patrick Nuttgens's The History of York, p. 255, mentions the City and County Bank (1830) [same as the York and County?] and the York Union Bank (1833), and also the Yorkshire District Bank (1834), taken over by the Yorkshire Banking Company in 1843, and the York Savings Bank (1816), rebuilt in St Helen's Square in 1829 by James Pigott Pritchett, now a Lloyds TSB branch. No more info in that book, I'm afraid
  • Waterhouse was Alfred Waterhouse, architect of Prudential offices and public buildings - check the gallery in his article.
  • --GuillaumeTell 21:34, 11 July 2011 (UTC)
    • I've discovered that what is now Barclays Bank was probably intended to be a rebuild of the York Union Bank - see here and scroll down to the bottom. It looks as if Barclays took it over fairly soon after. --GuillaumeTell 21:41, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
Oh yes. How very interesting. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:54, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Massacre[edit]

I see there's no article about the Jewish massacre in York. It would be a good addition if someone knowledgeable on the subject were of a mind to start it. Span (talk) 20:42, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Not an article as such, though in the post-conquest section of this article there's an easy-to-miss link from "massacre" to History of the Jews in England#Massacres at London and York (1189–1190) (the sub-section seems to have disappeared, however), plus a more detailed description at York_Castle#12th_century. --GuillaumeTell 21:40, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Music[edit]

This continues to give difficulties. Aside from the issue raised above under the GA review discussion about the lack of mention of contemporary music, the extent of the classical music scene is also not well reflected. I suggest that the Early Music Centre and the Festivals should come first as the most notable, then probably the music education and associated events at the universities. Lastly something about the very varied instrumental and choral performances on offer. I do not think putting the Academy of St Olave's first and suggesting that everything else is an also ran conveys the range or gives due balance. --AJHingston (talk) 13:16, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Sounds a very good idea. I was just trying to simplify what was currently there - it didn't seem to make much sense to allude to other groups, but then not say what they were. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:24, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
Agree to all the above, plus the Minster ought to be included. Now, who's going to improve the section? --GuillaumeTell 17:52, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
I wondered who might volunteer! Does anyone feel especially qualified? --AJHingston (talk) 21:40, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Demonym[edit]

I noticed that there is no demonym for the people from York, and I saw a couple web sites say that it is "Yorkers;" however, I'm not entirely sure about this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.36.81.85 (talk) 04:38, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

Nowadays it is likely to be 'Yorkies' eg in use of the term in the local press but much of that may stem from it being the name of a chocolate bar. The city's name is short enough that there is limited value in using one. I am not convinced that there is a sufficient established and consistent usage that there is value in including it in the article. --AJHingston (talk) 09:36, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
The OED claims that Yorkie refers to persons from Yorkshire in general, but the Wikipedia dab page claims it refers to both those from York and those from Yorkshire. As it is, neither article mentions the demonym. Since it is in use and not predictable, I'd think it should be mentioned somewhere. --Macrakis (talk) 01:09, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Poor lead image[edit]

The current lead image is very poor, it is a picture of the minster roof and hardly the picture most representative of York. A montage would be nice (as with Leeds and Sheffield however I don't think we have one (if anyone could make one that would be great). In the meantime I'm sure we could find a much better image. Any opinions? Mtaylor848 (talk) 16:52, 22 August 2014 (UTC)

This previous one (File:York_Minster_from_the_Lendal_Bridge.jpg is far better) Mtaylor848 (talk) 16:57, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
There are images at Commons:York and Category:York, England - no montages though, but feel free to create one. Careful to only free or your own images however, they have been added to the article before but always included inappropriately used copyrighted images and deleted. Яehevkor 17:02, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
Unfortunately I don't have the software to create a montage, so I'm somewhat at the mercy of others there. In the meanwhile though I was wondering if there is consensus for a change. In my experience making changes like this can lead to an edit war. Mtaylor848 (talk) 17:15, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
I'm not sure, the image you mention is probably nicer than the image in the article (especially if you like Pizza Express...). Whether or not that it the best is a matter of opinion. Яehevkor 17:32, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
I think we should all be grateful to Pizza Express for the low-key nature of their street fronting. You have to zoom in by about 800% to even distinguish the logo, and even then it's quite unclear. Unless you knows the business is located there, I'm really not sure you'd know what it was. It's a tiny detail in what is an excellent image. I'd wholly support returning it as the main image. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:40, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
I admit I simply knew it was there. If you think it's better there's nothing wrong with being bold and just replacing the image, I have no objections really, if there are issues we can seek a proper consensus. Яehevkor 17:51, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
As for size, I think most city articles have images with a width that matches the infobox map. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:49, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
To me it seemed quite small for a lead image, hard to make out any details. Hard to distinguish one building from the next. Яehevkor 20:16, 22 August 2014 (UTC)
And again we're back to a rather unappealing and bland photograph, this time of York Station (or to be more exact, the Queen Street bridge). Does anyone know why this has been changed? And would it be possible to go back to the previous image, or at least something which is more recognisable as a picture of York? 90.246.97.239 (talk) 03:31, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
Ew. Restored the old one.. Яehevkor 12:03, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Pubs[edit]

"York is noted for its numerous churches and pubs." Are there any pubs? The article would suggest not. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:45, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Poor lead image (reprise)[edit]

I'm sorry, but that skyline photo-montage is dire. York is unquestionably one of England's most attractive cities, but that makes it look like a West Yorkshire mill town or some midlands manufactury. Yes the railway station and the chocolate factory are important to the story of York, but they are not 2/3 of that story. Even my adopted home town of Reading manages a better looking skyline. I note that it was added by an anonymous user with no comment and no apparent discussion here. I'm going to revert it, at least pending some sort of sensible discussion. -- chris_j_wood (talk) 16:23, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Tend to agree. Even the two images used at The Chocolate Works article are much more attractive than the one used in the montage. The image of the railway station, while clear and strong, is also rather unattractive as a lead image. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:16, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
The montage needs to die in a fire, they keep cropping up in city articles by possibly well meaning editors but they are 99% of the time unclear or false as to the source of the images, i.e. an image from here is used which the uploader is almost certainly not the copyright holder (will tag). Яehevkor 17:21, 11 May 2015 (UTC)
And it's gone. Яehevkor 09:14, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Disambiguation (take two)[edit]

I'm going to try this again and hope I don't ignite another British Inquisition. There are over 30 places listed at York (disambiguation), many of which are very significant to their local regions as they were inpoints of British settlement. Just because they are named after the "original" York does not apply any decree of notability on the English York with reference to WP:COMMONNAME and WP:DAB. Using article statistics, the combined hit total of the other York's easily outnumber the English place. Ergo, York should point to a disambiguation page. If someone wants to try and tell me "apply a little common sense and work on something more useful", than I shall point them to my 50+ featured or good articles and the common sense of WP:DAB. - Floydian τ ¢ 02:02, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

  • Support - York, England should not be the primary topic as there are plenty of other important places across the world named York. I know York, Pennsylvania is a significantly sized city. Therefore, having York as a dab page is the best option. Dough4872 02:08, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Did you actually read WP:DAB, or just invoke it as a magic sigil? You might be surprised what it says about York specifically as the canonical example. Andy Dingley (talk) 02:12, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
Only with reference to New York City. But, for example, I've known York since a young age as a former municipality of Metropolitan Toronto as well as the former name of Toronto. Obviously it got this name, as with many other places in North America, from British cities (a product of the age of discovery no doubt). However, there are simply so many places that are likely locally known as "York" as opposed to "York, somewhere", that we should do readers the service of linking first to the disambiguation page... on which I don't really oppose listing this York as the main use of the term. - Floydian τ ¢ 02:19, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
WP:TITLEPTM: "York still hosts an article on the British city, and no suggestion to change that would be seriously entertained."
That's pretty definitive. Andy Dingley (talk) 08:31, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
I guess I'd support this as a primary topic...? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:23, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
? I'm not suggesting making another York the primary topic. I'm suggesting that York lead to a dab page. I also don't see how a city of 200K is comparable to a an alpha global city of over 2.5 million that is the largest city in its country. Likewise I'd never expect London to be a dab. - Floydian τ ¢ 12:41, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
Toronto is a village. Apologies for being facetious. I'm part of the Pevsner posse. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:46, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
There's also a Toronto, Ohio. Regarding the point raised by Andy Dingley, The sentence in WP:DAB is still in reference to New York City, hence it being in a paragraph regarding partial title matches. In addition, that text was added without discussion by User:Red Slash on February 14[4] so it hardly qualifies as a solid statement reflecting some pre-established notion. - Floydian τ ¢ 13:04, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
So would a simple objective rule work, like "largest population is always primary"? Or is that unfair? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:12, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
I think the objective rule of "there is no primary topic unless there is certainly a primary topic" works well, dabbing in most cases especially when several notable examples exist. Under the rule you gave, we'd be moving Cambridge, Ontario to the primary topic, which I don't believe is a good case. - Floydian τ ¢ 13:20, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
"There is no primary topic unless there is certainly a primary topic" isn't a objective rule, it's a subjective tautology. But my proposed rule above IS unfair, as it ignores other rules common assumptions such as "oldest or first is always primary". Martinevans123 (talk) 13:25, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
I don't believe there is any such rule. - Floydian τ ¢ 14:37, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
Are there ANY rules at all? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:51, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Support but doesn't go far enough - I think a lot of this is to do with WP editors' centric focus. I'm often irked by, whenever there's an option, the American choice seems to be the default, making WP culturally American-centric, not a worldwide English (language) project... primary articles (with DAB hatnotes), have a lot to do with "first comes to mind", and give a (perhaps designed), subtle impression of hierarchy of importance that smacks of arrogance. So I'm quite pleased when I see a British subject such as York being the primary. My prejudice aside, my view is that all searches with many possibilities should auto-refer to a DAB page. Perhaps our American editors who might balk at York being a primary would like to apply the same attitude to Boston and New York. Acabashi (talk) 10:48, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
Actually, very few American cities are set up as a primary topic due to the AP style guidelines. Almost any city of some decent size in England is given the primary topic, despite several other large, well-populated and notable places existing with the same name. Peterborough, Renfrew, Essex and Bradford are a few quick examples. - Floydian τ ¢ 13:04, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
Essex is a county not a city. An English county pretty much equates to a state in the US as the largest national subdivision.Charles (talk) 14:51, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
Debatable Charles. We could say that England, Scotland Wales and N. Ireland could equate to American-style states of the UK... so Essex, England would be no more important than the 10-odd Essex Counties in various US states... so why don't we nominate one of those to be the primary Essex ? This points out the nonsense of this whole debate. So let's DAB the whole lot of everything, so, for example, a 'Boston' search goes straight to a DAB page which includes 'Boston Mass' and 'Boston, Lincolnshire' et al alphabetically (per argument above). So I agree with Florian that York could point to a DAB page, but only when other pages such as New York do too, and all be changed at the same time for consistency and fairness . I don't think our North American chums would like that idea much though. But what's good for the goose... Acabashi (talk) 00:38, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose. York is by far the most historic and is a large city. No good reason for it not to be primary topic.Charles (talk) 14:51, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
  • "Our place had the name first, and is the one that all of the others are named after" is an argument I often see from the UK contingent in the case of a naming conflict — but it's an invalid one, because what place had the name first has nothing to do with Wikipedia's naming conventions. (Several very large American and Canadian cities, for example, are named after much smaller villages in the UK — but the North American cities are much more internationally famous, and thus have much stronger claim to primary topic, than their older English namesakes do.) We're optimized for an international readership, not a UK one — we have to consider what all anglophone readers worldwide are likely to understand as the "primary" topic for a name, not just what the ones who live in England would expect. And furthermore, nobody's suggesting that an American or Canadian York should take primary topic over the British one — what's been requested is that the plain title become a dab page, not that any North American York should get to claim the plain title instead of this one. What we actually have, in fact, is three places (Yorkshire, Ontario and Pennsylvania) which are all equally likely to land as "primary" for readers in their own country, and secondary for readers in either of the other two — and none of the three is particularly famous enough outside its own country that we can credibly confer "primary" status on any of them that way either. And that's exactly the textbook case for where a plain title should be a dab page rather than any one topic getting to pull trump on the others — and for that matter, the House of York would also have a fairly strong claim to the title being a redirect to it instead of an article about any geographic place. Windsor is a disambiguation page, rather than an article about the one in Berkshire, for pretty much the same reasons that this one should be — doing so does not constitute a North American bias, because no North American topic is getting primacy out of it. Move per nom. Bearcat (talk) 21:55, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
"We have really everything in common with America nowadays, except, of course, language". Martinevans123 (talk) 22:05, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The English city is the largest, and best known, locality known by simply "York". I live in and work for a larger municipality, north of Toronto, informally called York Region, but its name is not just "York". And, I also defer to the commentary about this very subject at WP:TPTM. PKT(alk) 22:50, 10 June 2015 (UTC)
I was talking about York as in Frances Nunziata country, not as in Markham/Vaughan. By no means is the one I was talking about internationally prominent enough to claim primary topic over the one in England — but that's not what was being proposed in the first place. Bearcat (talk) 02:12, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment: I'm thoroughly sick of these discussions that revolve around what one group of people think or feel vs. another group who reckon or suppose. How about somebody putting up a few objective facts, please? I'll get the ball rolling with a quick poll of my unfiltered Google search results for "York". I know the limitations of these as indicators, but they are still illustrative. So, I am based in western Canada and I am performing this search through google.ca, and what I get are links to: 1) York, England, tourism website; 2) York air conditioning; 3) the University of York, England; 4) Wikipedia's York page, currently on the English city; 5) York, England, city council; 6) York Racecourse, England; 7) the University of York, England, student union; 8) York Minster, York, England; 9) York Region, Canada; 10) City of York, Pennsylvania; 11) BBC Weather for York, England; 12) Lonely Planet's entry for York, England; 13) York Press newspapers, of York, England; 14) York wallcoverings, Pennsylvania; 15) Tripadvisor's entry for York, England; 16) York College, New York; 17) Town of York, Maine; 18) York College of Pennsylvania; 19) Shire of York government, Western Australia; 20) City of York, South Carolina; 21) York County, Pennsylvania; 22) The York on York gastropub, Los Angeles, California; 23) York Brewery, York, England; 24) York Community High School, Illinois; 25) Diocese of York, England; 26) York College, Nebraska; 27) The New York Times, New York; 28) York School Department, Maine; 29) York Daily Record, Pennsylvania; 30) York Archaeological Trust, England; 31) York Kindergarten, Hong Kong; 32) The York Dungeon, England; 33) York University, Canada; 34) York, Clark's manservant, who accompanied the Lewis and Clark expedition; 35) York St. John's University, England; York Theater Company, New York; 36) The Star newspaper, Canada'; 37) York Fitness, of York, Pennsylvania; 38) JW York Elementary, North Carolina; 39) Penn State York university, Pennsylvania; 40) York Art Gallery, England. And I'll stop at 40 because I'm sick of typing. That's 14/40 (35%) for the English city, with the next most abundant being the Pennsylvanian city with 7/40 (17.5%). Notice that within the first 10 results (i.e. the first page, where Google's algorithms place the most "appropriate" or popular results) the tally for the English city is 7/10, and Pennsylvania scores 1/10. Make of that what you will. Pyrope 00:35, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
    Oppose. Even though we can all make statistics say what we want to I think the Google stats from our Western Canadian friend are more believable than the original Wikipedia page stats, quoted by the instigator of this thread, on the basis that Google searches are conducted by a far wider audience and without searcher bias than those who come to Wikipedia, even though those numbers are pretty sizable themselves. I acknowledge and thank Floydian for all his good work on Wikipedia, but as you can see from his previous attempts on this talk page, these arguments have been rejected and not only for this article but for other UK places too. Final point, I went to the home Wikipedia page of around a dozen different language pages, including non-European ones, and entered York in the search. Guess which York page came up each time. If i had more time i would have done the lot to get the full picture. It may be that they are just copying the English language version, but i doubt it.Rimmer1993 (talk) 21:54, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
    And 9/10 times the opposers are from the UK, and very little input comes in from other places. I would like to gain a consensus from people outside the UK, Canada, or US to gain a truly global consensus. - Floydian τ ¢ 22:25, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
    Quite right, too. You need to ask these folks. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:31, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Pageview stats. Further to Rimmer1993's comment above, here are the pageview stats for the various pages for that last 90 days (as of 12 June, spikes shown are activity >2x normal weekly peaks):
So York, England, has almost 5 times the traffic of its nearest serious rival (York, Pennsylvania, again) and almost 10 times the traffic of the next greatest (York Regional Municipality, Canada). It gets between 15 and 250 times as much traffic as the vast majority of the USA places. I know people like to think about pageviews of X vs. the sum of all pageviews, but you have to bear in mind the number of other pages. If you have Page Y on 1000 views, and 1001 others with 1 view each, does that mean that Page Y isn't the main topic? Seems an odd thought to me. Pyrope 23:16, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
For those who like their hard evidence in a more visual format...
York 90daypageviews June2015.png
Pyrope 21:56, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
"Oh, Susannah". Music to my ears (... with a banjo on my knee). Martinevans123 (talk) 22:08, 12 June 2015 (UTC)