Talk:Zaza language

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/Archive 1


This article is obviously POV. I will do my best to explain why:

First of all the main sources for this article are Ethnologue and some very questionable websites that do not look professional and are obviously biased. Anyone can make a website like that and include it as a source. Ethnologue by the way is a bible selling company! I mean come on, do I need to explain this any further?

Then the article disputes Britannica encyclopedia (while first accepting a bible selling company as a sound source for linguistic information) and gives the argument:"The Encyclopedia Britannica notes Zazaki to be a dialect of Kurdish. However, this classification is not supported by linguistics and regarded as political rather than scientific." And as a source for that claim they link to the dubious site where there is no explanation for this claim.

Further when comparing Zazaki to the Kurdish language (among others) it doesn't say witch Kurdish dialect it is comparing it to. Probably to show everyone that "the Kurdish language" and "Zazaki language" are not similar.

There are lots of studies linking Zazaki speakers to other Kurds but they are conveniently not mentioned in this article. The only point of view that gets attention in this article is that of Zaza nationalists who do not want to be associated with Kurds.

yeah thats true for even while they are just a little minority here in europe. Just look at that video clips from zaza in anatolia. No one of them sees themself as a different nation from kurdish. or what also smells like zaza fashism is this part here " Zazaki (or Kirmanjki, Dimli) is a language spoken by Zazas a branch of Iranian people in eastern Turkey. According to Ethnologue, the Zazaki is a part of the northwestern group of the Iranian section of the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-European family.[1] Zazaki shares many features, structures, and vocabulary withPersian, Gorani, Gilaki, Talyshi and other Caspian languages, spoken in northern Iran, along the southern Caspian coast.[citation needed] According to Ethnologue (which cites [Paul 1998][2]), the number of Zazaki speakers is between 1.5 and 2.5 million (including all dialects)."

the relation to even persian is counted but why for gods sake i don´t see any relation to kurmanci while kurmanci is for sure closer to zazaki than persian! —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 20:31, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

The rest of my explanation is the same from the "Zaza people" article: It's obvious that the writers of this article have done everything to remove all Kurdish links with Zazaki speaking people. In my family there are as much Zazaki speaking people as there are Kurmanji speaking people and they al consider themselve Kurds. Some of the most famous rebellions in Turkey were done by Zazaki speakers and they claimed to be Kurdish and fought for the Kurdish cause[1]. Seeing Zazaki speakers as a different ethnicity is something of the last 20 years and has no historical evidence because there is NO historical literature on Zazaki speakers. DNA does NOT support a different origin of Zazaki speakers [2]. It's all part of the divide and conquer politics in Turkey and that includes seeing Alevis as a different ethnicity (I am an alevi Kurd myself). --Bijikurdistan (talk) 10:14, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Somebody keeps removing the POV tag without resolving the issue first. --Bijikurdistan (talk) 09:55, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Ethnologue is not a "Bible-selling company"; it's a publication of the Summer Institute of Linguistics, the academic/linguistic arm of the Wycliffe Bible Translators. There are some definite problems with Ethnologue, but it's widely recognized as the most comprehensive listing of its kind, it was used as the basis of International Standard ISO639-3, and linguistic academic scholars do not hesitate to refer to it in some contexts... AnonMoos (talk) 21:53, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Dear all, please try not to mix ethnicity and language! Zaza speakers may rightly define themselves as Kurds. However, it does not mean that Zaza and Kurmandji are just dialects of one and same language. (talk) 15:17, 11 November 2008 (UTC) Guy from Finland

@Guy from Finland well I get this Point. Also Paul Ludwig do not separate the Zazaki Speakers from the Rest of Kurds. So I don´t understand why the articles about Zazaki Speakers usually contains things like ethnicities. While no ethnologist separates Zazas from other Kurds. This article is obviously POV. Before someone talks about Zaza being another ethnicity than Kurds he needs to show me sources and proves. Not just articles about the Language.-- (talk) 22:28, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Definition of Kurdish[edit]

Regarding the science of antrapology and genetic studies, speakers of Zazki(Dımılki), Gorani(Hewrami), Kurmanji, Sorani, Luri, kelhuri, Bahtiyari do not differ racially from each other though they differs much from other iranian groups in many aspects. But in the course of time, Kurds, being members of different religions and using different religious books of different languages had some impect on their origional language. And other social, cultural and political expositions made some modifications on their language regionally. Zazaki or Gorani[Hewrami)seem to be the least modiefied remains of old kurdish language spoken by medians and partians and other ansestors of kurds and also closest to ancient sacred language of avesta and scripts of yaresan or alevi beleifs among all other kurdi languages.

The use of the term "Kurdish" should be defined. As Kurdish in this article means Kurmanji/kurmancî it should be stated. Why Kurmanji is used should also be motivated, as kurmanji is the farthest of the kurdish dialects you could come from Dimilí. Even Soraní is closer to Dimilí, however the closest is Hewramí and Guraní.

I id change all Kurdis citation into Kurmanji, because it brings confusions, on which part of kurdish is talking?!! Here all given exemples were in kurmanji thats why i change it!--Alsace38 (talk) 12:30, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Citation needed[edit]

"Gorani, Bajelani, and Shabaki languages are spoken around Iran-Iraq border; however, it is believed that they are also immigrated from Northern Iran to their present homelands."

What?! Who ever believed they immigrated from northern Iran? Historical sources point to that the original language of the Kurds was Pehlewaní (which includes both Dimili and Gorani and its Bajelani, Shabaki subgroups). Kurmanji was spread during the middle ages and much later becoming the majority language/dialect of the Kurds. However before this Pehlewaní was the majority language/dialect of the Kurds. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 13:15, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


Zazaki is DIALECT of the KURDISH language! The Zazaki dialect has similarities with the Kurdish-gorani dialect that is spoked in Hewraman in southern (iraq) and eastern (iran) Kurdistan and with the Kurdish-kalhori dialect that is spoken is eastern (iran) Kurdistan in the major Kurdistanian cities of Kermanshah (Kirmashan in Kurdish) and the city of Ilam. The enemies of Kurdistan, specially the fascist power of Turkey want to devide the Kurds and make them insecure to their real identity. The Kurdish language consists of many dialects, that have been created along the 4000 year long history of Kurdistan. The different dialect were created because of the geographic region of Kurdistan (entire Kurdistan), which is mountainous. The mountains made the communication between regions of Kurdistan to hard and people didn't reach eachother so easly in Kurdistan, therefore in every single region in Kurdistan, because of the bad communications that were created by the mountains, different dialect of the KURDISH LANGUAGE were created independently, where the ZAZAKI DIALECT (NOT ZAZAKI LANGUAGE!!) was one of them! The enemies of Kurdistan want to broken the will of the KURDISTANIAN PEOPLE by NOT letting them to study their HISTORY, LANGUAGE, CULTURE and so on. Therefore, some unproved thoughts and speculations are created. RENAME THIS SECTION as "ZAZAKI DIALECT OF THE KURDISH LANGUAGE" and READ THE HISTORY OF KURDS AND KURDISTAN to know how WRONG you are writing about trying to make one of the MOST IMPORTANT BASIS of the KURDISH LANGUAGE as a SEPERATE LANGUAGE!! Read the history of the Kurdish language and the history of Kurdistan and then know how RICH the Kurdish language is, that has more than 450 000 words!! (compared to the Swedish language that has only 400 000, although it is one of the most rich language of the world). I want to refer to this page and showing the different dialects of the kurdish language: —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 22:57, 4 November 2008 (UTC) --Alex city (talk) 23:22, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Zazaki or Dimli[edit]

According to this text this is not about one language but a group of languages. As a consequence this text is not really useful. Thanks, GerardM (talk) 13:14, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

"c" initial[edit]

Proto-Indo-European and Proto-Iranian sound "y" turns to a "c" in Zazaki language as well as in Persian and Kurdish.

Avesta Zazaki Hewrami Kurmanji English
y ĵ ĵ ĵ -
yeng ceng ceng ceng fight
yada ciya ciya cuda/ciya separate
yaošti- c c c gush
yeūe- cew yow ce barley
yawān ciwan cuwan ciwan young
yāker ciger yeher ciger liver
yāme- cām cām cām glass
yāthu- cāju cādū cāzū witch

- Daraheni (talk) 18:23, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

No, It is not common. Gorani keeps the original y. so please restore the table and add Gorani instead of either Persian or Kurmanji. Sakonal (talk) 18:47, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Comparison Tables : Negligence or Incompetency?![edit]

The comparison tables are incredibly wrong! All the Kurdish entries are intentionally picked! Almost the entire Kurdish entries are from northern Kurmanci dialect. Maybe because Central (Sorani) and Southern (Kelhuri, Leki, Feyli, Gerrusi) Kurdish words would illustrate exclusive ties between Kirmanci Kurdish and Zazaki, so Central and Southern Kurdish words are suddenly pretermitted!? Should I call it “incompetency”, “negligence” or something else?! Here are the incorrect points :

Zazaki Persian Kurdi English

v b / g b / g - va bad ba, wa wind varan baran baran, waran rain 1.vac 2.avaz 1.bêj, wêj 1.sing; 1.vaz- 2.vez- 1.bez-, , wez-, waz-; 2.blow velg berg belg, welg- leaf ver ber, ver ber, wer front, fore veyv biyug buk, wewî, wey bride verek berrê berx, werk- sheep vewr berf befr, wefr, berf snow vên, vin bin- bîn-, wîn- see vir bir bîr, wîr memory vist bist bist twenty viya bive bêwe, bî widow viyal bid bî willow vam badam bayam, wayam almond vic- biz- bij-, wij- sieve, screen veyšan gorosne birsî, wirsî hungry vešn gošn beran ram vıl gol gul rose velık gordê gurčık, wulk

kidney verg gorg gurg, wûrg wolf vurayen gerdiden guherin, gorrandin change

  • the Kurdish “bang” doesn’t mean “voice”, it’s only used instead of Arabic “adhan”. Also in some sub-dialects they use it as “bang kirdin” ~ “to call”. The main Kurdish word is “deng”. Also it’s really Ironic since I don’t know who the genius has put Avestan “vacha-“ as the root of Kurdish “deng”, Persian “bang” and Zaza “veng”. Since these later words are derived from Avestan root of “dvanga-“. Where the Parthian tosses initial “d” and then we have “veng” in the Zaza and “wang” as a Parthian loan in the Middle Persian, thus Persian “bang”. Though nowadays no Persian speaker says “shoma bange khubi darid”!!! They all use Arabic “seda” instead of it.
    • Persian “gîyah”, Kurdish “gîya” are not comparable with Zazaki “vaş”!! Zazaki “vaş” is a result of Parthian “waş” while the root of the Persian and Kurdish “gîya” also exist in Parthian language : “gîyaw”!!!

Zazaki Kurdi Persian Pashto English

z/s z/s d/h z/s - zerri dill, dil dêl zṛe heart zerd zerd, zer zer zar gold zan- zan- dan- - know zama zava, zama damad zum groom ez ez (min) -*** ze I berz berz, bilind boland lwaṛ borough, high des deh, de deh las ten

      • There has never ever been an “ed” in neither Modern Persian nor Middle Persian!! Even in the Middle Persian contexts we face Parthian “ez” instead of current “men”.

Zazaki Persian Kurdi English

ĵ z ž - ĵeni zen žin woman ĵin- zan- žen- playing music, to beat ĵiwiyayıš zisten žıyan live ĵinde zende zîndig, zindî, žîno* alive ĵor zêber žor up ĵêr zir žêr down ĵi ez ži from roĵ ruz rož day 1.vaĵ 2.avaz 1.bêž, wêž 1.say, 2.sing erĵan** erzan erzan, herzan cheap viĵ- biz- biž-, wiž- sieve, screen pewĵ- pez- pêž- cook zi - jî too, also

  • jîno : alive, living, vivacious > p. 293; Farhang-e Namha va ShakhsiyatHa (Ferhengî Nêwî Kûrran û Kiçan, Gewre Pîyawan û Gewre Jinan) Kordi-Farsi ; gerdavari va taalif : Seyyed Shahabe Khezri; nasher : Entesharate Kordestan; nowbat-e chap : avval, 1384.
    • is not this Zaza “ercan” just a corrupted form of “erjan” < “erzan”?!!! There are a lot of original “z” in the Zazaki that are corrupted into “j” and further “c”: original Arabic “razî” > “rajî” > “racî”.

Zazaki Persian Kurdi Pashto English

w h/w h/w w/h - new noh now, neh neh nine čewres čehel čil tsalwešt forty newe no nûh, nûwê newai new

Zazaki Persian Kurdi Pashto English

rz / rr l l ṛ / l - berz boland berz, bilind lwaṛ borough, high erz hel- hêl - sprinkle, throw wurz liz alez aluz- dash off, stand up, fly serpez seporz sıpıl - spleen serre sal sal kal year zerre dêl dil zṛe heart vıl gol gul, goralle gul flower

Zazaki Persian Kurdi Pashto English

w x(u) x(w) x(w)/xp/gh - witiš xabidan xewtin, xeftin xob sleep xo xod xwe xpela self, own gun xun xwin wina blood weš xoš xweš xoẓ̌ sweet wend- xand- xwend- - read wa xahar xweh, xweyşk xor sister werd- xord- xward- xwr- swallow, eat wašt- xast- xwast- ghuṣ̌tel want

Zazaki Persian Pashto Kurdi English

m m m v - name nam num nav, nam* name zamay damad zum zava, zama groom gam gam gam gav, gam step haminan, amnan - - havin summer zimistan zimistan žemai zivistan, zimistan winter dam dam - dav domestic; trap, noose embaz enbaz ham hemaz participant, partner

  • in the Erdellani Sorani (like : penename, nazname; while in the other Soranis we have “penenaw” and “naznaw”) and Southern Kurdish sub-dialects such as Ilamî “nam”, “nûm”.
    • Kurdish “heval” and “hamal” are not comparable with “hemaz”, Zaza “embaz”, and Persian “enbaz”.

Zazaki Persian Kurdi English

w f f - hewt heft* heft, hewt seven kewt oftad keft/ket/kewt get in grewt greft girt buy, take kew kef kef foam vewre berf befr, wefr, bewr** snow

  • Who the genius has assumed that Persian “haft” starts off with a palatal “h-”?!
    • In the Central sub-dialects.

So, these corrections are all reckoned without the influential paradox of “c”, “j” and “z” in Zazaki! What for we should accept ”c” instead of “j” and “z”?!!! In the Dimili dialect they almost have no change of ş > s, z > j, or j > c. Though the other dialects present these tendencies in a huge scale : “sima” < “şima”; “racî” < “rajî” < “razî”; “vaz” < “vaj”; “vac” < “vaj”… And indeed such shifts are the base of our all reasoning to divide Iranian languages into separate groups!! Evidently the current Zazaki entries are chosen from the other Zaza dialects and not from the Pure Dimili one.

Also I changed the newfangled (!) Kurdi !! Since when English speakers use "Kurdi" instead of "Kurdish"!?? Kak Language —Preceding undated comment added 10:15, 21 April 2009 (UTC).

New Comparison Tables[edit]

I placed Gorani (Hewramani) instead of Persian. Gorani is the closest language to Zazaki, which together constitute Zaza-Gorani group. Gorani is spoken in Hewraman and some other parts of Eastern (Iranian) and Southern (Iraqi) Kurdistan. --Kak Language Tua Parola —Preceding undated comment added 13:55, 27 April 2009 (UTC).

The language is Avestan in English, not Avesta[edit]

The language is Avestan, not Avesta. The Avesta are the sacred texts themselves, not the language. Azalea pomp (talk) 17:56, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Sound changes[edit]

Are the variant forms for seven heft for Gorani and Kurdish actually Persian loans? Also, does the final -h in some forms for nine a sound change of w to h or are they Persian loans? I thought the -h in noh of Persian was actually a contamination from the -h in dah just as the h- in hasht was a contamination from the h- in haft. Azalea pomp (talk) 18:00, 27 April 2009 (UTC)


I created the original table. Let me explain how it was created:

  1. The tables are basen on this table created by German scholar Paul Ludwig
  2. Comparison was mostly based on original words (not borrowed words). If there is no original, then borrowed ones are shown.
  3. By Kurdish, now I highlight it is Kurmanci.
  4. There is actually Kurdish languages group, not a Kurdish Language. Kurmanci and Sorani are under Kurdish languages group whereas Zazaki and Hewrami is under Zaza-Gorani group.
  5. Classifications are based on Ethnologue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Daraheni (talkcontribs) 19:00, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
First of all if Kurdish is not homogeneous, then why you just pick Kurmanji words which are the most remote and unrelated ones to Zazaki?
Why you use a table which shows closeness and remoteness of Iranian languages with Parthian?!! (the uncivilized Iranian tribes of later Turkmanistan!) Why you don't use Paul Ludwig's or A. Korn's table which are more comprehensive?
Or please why you keep removing kirmanjki/kirdi -literally: Kurmanji and Kurdish- (the native names of the so-called Zazaki)??. do you have a problem with Dimilis/zazas call their language Kurdish? Also please note that Zazaki is the most wrong name for this language since zaza is a pejorative name. The correct names are Kirdki (kurdish), Kirmanjki (Kurmanji) and Dimilki (Deylami).
Also please be aware of 3RR law. Sakonal (talk) 19:17, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
First of all, all languages are heterogeneous. If you want to add more words, you have to create columns for each language. This is because Kurdish is not a language; it is a language group with Sorani and Kurmanci making-up the majority. Zazaki and Hewrami, on the other hand, is under Zaza-Gorani group. Your claims of prerogative has nothing to do with this discussion, and It is not correct. Daraheni (talk) 19:25, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
You did not answer why you just pick Kurmanji? Why not Gorani which is closer to Zazaki?! Why you removed Kirdki? Sakonal (talk) 19:29, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
Hewrami/Gorani is not a Kurdish language. This is just plainly evident. Sorani and Kurmanci is in the Kurdish language group. This are just basics. Daraheni (talk) 19:36, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
Regarding this edit, I must say our arguments make it clear who has a political agenda and who does not. Instead of giving emotional edit summaries and revert warring, provide or accept logically-supported arguments. Sakonal (talk) 19:27, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
Look my friend, I have been trained at University of California on Iranian languages. I know what I am talking about. I know the position of Zazaki. I know which languages it is closeley related like Talishi and Tati. I read about Talishi and Tati and I also read abou Sorani and Kurmanci languages. You have the Kurdish nationalist argument. That is just obvious. As the case of Zazaki's classification, it is just evident that the Zazaki language is not under Kurdish Languages group. It is under Zaza-Gorani group. That is very clear. This classification makes all other things unpractical since there is no justification of playing with a language's genealogical tree when it is just simply evident. Daraheni (talk) 19:34, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
It does not change anything if you are trained at university of california or Orkhon vally! what is important is NPOV and UW! Your personal life or carrier has nothing to do with wiki articles. You can add it to your userpage but not to this article.
BTW, you just claimed that Zazaki is closer to Gorani and Tati! TIf so then what the hell has Kurmanji to do with this article? Why you don't add Tati?? Sakonal (talk) 19:40, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
It does change everything when someone want to play with a language's genealogical tree. You should take a look here. I'll put more info as time permits. Daraheni (talk) 19:45, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not claiming Zazaki as Kurdish. I claim it has nothing to do with Kurdish. Zazaki is a pejorative name for Dimilki (Deylami), and Iranica explicitly says it has recently immigrated to Kurdistan from northeastern Iran, (Deylaman). The question is why you compare it with an unrelated language like Kurmanji Kurdish? why you don't put Mazandarani instead? why not Gilaki? Why not Tati? or talishi? or Gorani!! Sakonal (talk) 19:52, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

If we start including every Iranian language, then perhaps this table should be on the Iranian languages page. Azalea pomp (talk) 20:38, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
  1. First, there is a claim by Kurmanci Kurdish nationalist in Turkey that the Zazaki language is a Kurdish dialect. In Turkey, by Kurdish language, people refer to Kurmanci. So essentially, they claim Zazaki is a Kurmanci dialect. So it is important to put the Kurmanci versions as opposed to Sorani, Gilaki, or Tati versions. The same propaganda was perpetuated by Turks over Kurdish and Zazaki. You should be familiar with this issue.
  2. Second, I know the Kurmanci and Persian languages better than Sorani, Gilaki or Southern Tati. I have done studies on those languages. I have access to databases in those languages.
  3. Third, it is no obvious if Zazas immigrated directly comes from Caspian area or whether Zazaki region was the most extent of these languages. Bear in mind, the Old Azari language was in Caspian languages group, before it was assimilated by Turks. The proximity between Azaris and Zazas are not that great. Anyway, this is not the issue. Well, essentially all the Iranic langauges come from Southern Russia and Central Asia. They are not native to eastern Anatolia.
  4. Forth, The name of a language is not an issue. The issue is a langauge's sound rules and grammar rules, its position, and so on. Daraheni (talk) 20:09, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
1) Then your inclusion of Kurmanji has a political motivation. Thank you for the clear answer! It made it clear you do have a political agenda :).
2) But there are other users who have better knowlege of Gilaki and Tati which are essentially closer to Zazaki. Keep calm, avoid edit warring, and let others add one of those languages instead of the irrelevant Kurmanji.
3)But the mainstream view is that they immigrated from Deylaman. Even their religion shows this, besides their name and language!
4)If the name of a language is not an issue, why keep removing it? Be neutral. Sakonal (talk) 06:46, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
Look my friend if you know the Sorani language create a new column and put all its words. And If somebody who want to add Tati or Talishi, sure I will be happy to see that. I don't care if Zazas come from Deylaman or not. Essentially all Iranian speaking people came to Iranian plato and eastern Anatolia from Afghanistan and Central Asia 2500-3000 years ago, just like Turks came from Mongolia 900 years ago. Essentially we are all immigrants. Daraheni (talk) 00:55, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Pashto in table[edit]

Pashto has two retroflex fricatives: the LOC transliterates them as ṣh and ẓh. Since we are using the hacheks they are transliterated as ṣ̌ and ẓ̌. If you don't know Pashto or don't how to transliterate Pashto, please just don't make up a transliteration. Azalea pomp (talk) 20:35, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand Pashto, but I think it is obviously less comparable to Western Iran. Daraheni (talk) 20:57, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Two issues[edit]

First, if you don't know how to properly write a PIE proto-form please just don't make it up. You must include a distinction between the so called palatals (earlier velars) and velars (earlier uvulars) as well as the syllabic consonants. Also, Persian loans in Kurdish should be marked! Kurdish deh is a Persian loan. If you include loans without marking them, this will add confusion to the table. Honestly only inherited words in the lexicon should be included. Azalea pomp (talk) 21:09, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

That's right. I'll do that. Borrowed words are messing up the comparisons. --Daraheni (talk) 23:01, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
Exactly. Sakonal (talk) 07:02, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

@ Daraheni

You think Wikipedia is something of private property or probably your forefathers have handed it down to you?! If you don’t know Central and Southern Kurdish dialects, Gorani (Hewrami) language or Talyshi, it means no one else should put those entries becuz here’s your dominion?!!

First, I am really sorry for Uni. of California when you are tagging yourself to it. Otherwise how come a student of Iranian languages doesn’t know that Persian “bang” comes from Pahlavi “wang” which is a loan from Parthian “wang” and this has nothing to do with Avestan “vacha-“?! I brotherly advise you to go back to school and review your lessons once again, maybe next time you would figure out that Persian “gusale” (calf) is not comparable with Kurdish “gurçik” (kidney)!!!

You as a Biased Zazaist, who is seeking to blot out every tie between Kurdish and Zazaki, even don’t respect to the current scientific facts and insist that there is no Kurdish language and it’s whether Kurmanci or Sorani meanwhile you confess that you know nothing about Sorani and Southern Kurdish (Kelhuri, Gerrusi, Feyli, etc.)!! And someone could really gibe at you since you appeal to Ethnologue’ classification to prove your unreasonable claim, whereas Zazaki itself is divided into two languages: Dimili (or Dimbuli) and Kirmancki according to the Ethnologue!! What should I consider it?! Are you really a naïve or a malignant person?!

First, Ethnologue is just a database to estimate populations. Its self-willed language trees don’t receive scientific back up at all. And indeed it’s not a reliable source to judge about languages and dialects.

In all historical evidences of Ottoman period as well as those of Safavid, Zand, and Qajar dynasties of Iran, there is nothing called Zaza people in the today regions of eastern Anatolia! Even the Zazaki speaking tribes which triggered two insurrections against Republic of Turkey in 1925 and 1937-38, all speculated themselves as Pure Kurds and fought in the name of Kurdish Nation and attempt to vindicate its substantial rights (as our counterpart history testifies). The first, ever, indication to the term “Zaza” as an Ethnic Group appears in 1989 and a Zaza speaking journalist which claimed in his papers for an unprecedented Zaza identity. And what brings us into skepticism is the subsequent corroboration that this claim relieved from the Turkish officials!! Anyways, there is nothing wrong with it, people are free to denominate themselves whatever they like, but the unbearable part of their, Zazaists, biased and baseless propaganda is their arrogation that all Zaza speakers are Zaza (not Kurdish) and even the famed Zaza revolutionary characters which have declared themselves Kurdish and have been martyred in the name of Kurdish people, were not Kurdish and they were Zazas!! They even rub their noses into affairs of the rest Kurdish people as well as Iranian people (recently they have claimed Daylami and Gilaki people to be originated from the so-called Zazaistan!!!!). Indeed such biased and phony claims illustrate nothing but their malice and spite. Also today there are many famous Zaza speaking Kurds in the Zazaki section of Roj TV, Vate magazine,, etc. that advocate their true identity.

Anyways, I don’t wanna enlarge it any more, but; first, for sure the article must mention both Kurdish and Zaza people as the speakers of Zazaki. It’s nothing but ultimate discrimination to disregard Kurdish people as the historical and original speakers.

Zazaki entries MUST cover three main Zaza dialects not only selected remote words (whereas no one has scientifically proved whether “dz”/c”, “j”, or “z” is original so far). Since linguistically, Zazaki and Gorani (another Iranian language spoken in the Iraqi and Iranian Kurdistan) constitute Zaza-Gorani group, Gorani must be placed in the tables. Kurdish entries must contain all three dialects not only intentionally picked words from some Northern sub-dialects. Since some scholars claimed Zazaki to be originated from Daylaman region in Gilan, thus Gilaki and Daylami (a dialect of Gilaki language) entries should be added to the tables to observe similarities and differences.

About the inherence of entries, I agree with Azalea.

Also the claim to link Dimili’s to Daylamites is based on the outward similarity between “dimil” and “daylam” and an indication to Armenian language in which “dimil” is called “delmik”. But, I don’t know what for and how come, the scholars who asserted it never ever mentioned the other variants of “Dimil” which are “Dimbil”, “Dimbul”, “Denbul”. Also the Denbulis were a historical Kurdish tribe settled in today Southeastern Turkey. On my side, it’s almost impossible to claim “Denbul” is derived from “Daylam”! But as a current theory I respect it and regarding to it, Gilaki (Daylami) entries should be added.

By the way only scientific explication for the term “Zaza” ascribes it as a Pejorative Name and this must be mentioned in the article, as well as, “Kirdki” along with Dimbuli variant of Dimili as the other local names of the language.

As a native Iranian who can speak Kurdish (Kirmanci, Sorani, Kelhuri), Gorani (Hewrami), and Persian as mother tongue and who’s conversant with Gilaki, Talyshi, Tati (Azeri), and Mazeruni (Mazandarani) as well as Zazaki; I won’t let some prejudiced Zazaists to disrepute Wikipedia with partiality.--Kak_Language 09:29, 28 April 2009 (UTC)Kak Language (Tua Parola)

I tell you two things. The Zazaki language's classification is just evident. There is nothing you can do about it. The Zazaki language is not in the Kurdish Languages group. It is under Zaza-Gorani group. All the claims of Kurdish nationalist are baseless.
Second, your claim of Zaza as a "pejorative" name is as false as Turkish claims of "mountain Turks" of Kurds. That claim is developed by Kurdish nationalists. That is just plain simply wrong.
And, Finally, I talk about different versions Zazaki words below tables. So I don't cherry pick anything. Daraheni (talk) 01:02, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
You are just a bit too pewee to disguise your rigmaroles and sell them in new garments. Did I say “Zazaki is a dialect of Kurdish?” It was just you who unreasonably tried to tear up Kurdish, but you forgot the site that you credit your nonsensical claim with, has just divided Zazaki into two languages: Kirmancki (140,000 speakers with two major dialects: Tunceli and Varto), Dimili (~1,500,000 speakers). Also according to Ethnologue estimation, Northern Zaza, or as Ethnologue asserts: Kirmancki Language, owes only 140,000 speakers, while the Southern Zaza owes around 1,500,000. It mean almost less than 10% of Zaza speakers belong to the Northern dialects (or as Ethnologue claims ~ Kirmancki Language).
Anyways, first, learn that Kurdish is a Language consist of Three Main dialects: Kurmanci (Northern), Sorani (Central), and Kelhuri-Gerrusi-Feyli. When someone’s comparing Kurdish with another language, all Kurdish entries must be mentioned.
Also when you don’t a bit abt Southern and Central Kurdish as well as Gorani so don’t meddle in their affairs! Kurdish “wefr” and “bewr” are not Gorani loans, since all Gorani speeches only represent “verwe”, “verve”. Kurdish “gorale” is not a Gorani laon, since “w” never changes into “g” in Gorani and Gorani speakers basically use “vil”, “bil”. I am not gonna learn your all languages of Kurdish people, you must know it yourself that when you don’t know something you should not meddle unjustly.
I never ever said Zaza or Gorani (Hewrami) are Kurdish dialects. But SINCE they are EXCLUSIVEY spoken by KURDISH people, therefore we can call them Languages of Kurds or Kurdish Languages. Also this term won’t necessarily mean that it’s a Linguistic Branch. This term is better to use becuz every Kurdish group all over Kurdistan call their own speech as “Kurdish”. For example Gorani speakers always refer to their language as “Kurdish”. Or Zaza speakers besides tribal names such as Dimili, call their language “Kirdki” or “Kirmancki”. Even McKenzie first time declared that Zaza-Gorani is the Purest Kurdish language. I think to finish the issue we should use Kirmanci term instead of Kurdish. So that Languages of Kurdish people will consist: Dimili (Zaza), Gorani, and Kirmanci. Also we must mention that since 1989 some Dimili (Zaza) speakers intended to change their identity and assume an unprecedented identity of Zaza for themselves.
If to claim “Zaza” as a “Pejorative” name is wrong, therefore all Linguistic claims confirmed by McKenzie (< Professor Ehsan Yarshater somewhere described him as “The Greates Expert in Kurdish Languages”) should be wrong too!! Also maybe McKenzie is wrong in finding out Zaza as a Pejorative term, whereas Zazaists Extra-Professors are true in linking Zaza term to an indication to a Babylonian town across Euphrates in an Old Persian script “Zezane”??!!!! Your ignorance is infinite.
Also here the problem is not abt Turkish discrimination or some who consider Zaza as a dialect. The wrong thing over here is the disgusting Turkish-Zazaist discrimination towards Zazaki speaking Kurds. The article must mention both Kurdish and unprecedented Zaza identities as native speakers of Zazaki language. No doubt about Kurds speaking Zazaki, but if someone has historical evidences that the term “Zaza People” antedates 1989; I will gratefully accept it.
And about the tables, no need to your personal description for Zaza words, all Zaza variants including “z”, “j”, and “c” (roz, roj, ruec; espize, epiji, spice; nimoz, nimaj, nimac; vaz, vaj, vac; etc.) must be added to the table. Until someone definitely proves that which one is correct and must be considered as the mainstream for Zazaki.
Persian words should be corrected. Many words are misspelled or are located in the wrong place. If you are bashful to ask your teacher, go try Iranians over there, Cali is teemed with Iranians. They can help you in order to correct your mistakes.--Tua ParolaKak_Language 09:37, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Easy man, just relax. Okay! Look, the case for Sorani v. Kurmanci is very different. In Iraqi Kurdistan, Kurmanci is officially banned from schools. Sorani is being used. They are just different languages under Kurdish languages family. In the case of, Southern and Northern Zazaki, people can communicate with each other, talk to each other. Kurmanci and Sorani are diverged a lot. Ethnolgue's classification does not capture much of the details. Languages are live things. It is hard to have a clear-cut outline.
I don't know why you guys blame most people for anti-Kurdishness. I am not anti-Kurdish. Do I want to enrich Zaza culture and language? Yes I do really want to that, just like you want the same for Kurdish. Do I want to impose my Zaza identity on Kurds. No I don't. That's the difference between me and people like you.
These names are irrelevant. The way people define themselves is irrelevant to our discussions. There are millions of Kurds in Turkey identify themselves "Turkish". Does that make Kurds Turkish? Obviously you are here to impose your Kurdish nationalist ideas. Kurdish nationalism is copied from Turkish nationalism. I am familiar with this discourse. But I tell you just right up front, this kind of attitude doesn't work.
For the case of "-ĵ", "z" or "ž" is also mentioned in the footnotes long time ago. Good moorning! Daraheni (talk) 06:08, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
In a linguistic sense, we shouldn't call Gorani a Kurdish language. That would be misleading and not clear if we did that. Although if the Gorani consider themselves ethnic Kurds, perhaps it would be better to say a language of the Kurds. Although I know what you mean as Kurdish has two meanings, a linguistic one and a cultural one, but let us not confuse people. That is like saying Qashqa'i is an Iranian language (in the sense as a language of Iran) which it would be better to say Qashqa'i is a language of Iran. This is just more clear. People may think we mean Iranian in the linguistic sense versus the state sense. In a linguistic sense "Kurdish" means only North, Central, South, and Laki. Kurdish in a cultural sense as the speakers identify would include Gorani and perhaps other non-Kurdish but Iranian languages.
If there are variants in the various Zaza dialects, first we need to decide which words are inherited versus which are borrowed. We need to include more dialect data here anyway. Can someone make a table of Zaza dialects with forms? Azalea pomp (talk) 20:45, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Western Iranian classification[edit]

The classification of Western Iranian probably doesn't just break up into a Northwest versus Southwest branch. From reading the various Iranica articles, many of the sub-branches of Western Iranian are perhaps transitional between each other. I don't think we should forget that all of these language sub-branches are related to each other. There is also a large amount of borrowing between branches. Perhaps it is better to look at Western Iranian as various branches radiating from a central core. As the Iranian speakers in Iran came from east of Iran, the speakers I doubt broke up initially into Northwest and Southwest.

While Zaza and Gorani probably form a sub-branch, I don't think their relationship to any other Western Iranian branch is exactly settled although most likely close to the Caspian languages. We do know that Zaza-Gorani is not in the Kurdish sub-branch but exactly how they are related is still debated. Kurdish ( which is "Northwest") does transition into Luri (which is "Southwest"). Check this article on Kurdish on Iranica:

Zaza seems to have its origins as a rather pejorative term, but do the speakers themselves use Zaza or do they find it pejorative today? We can mention that Zaza has its origins as a pejorative term, but if academia is using Zaza, we must use what they are using. Azalea pomp (talk) 19:17, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Dear friend, the claim that the word "Zaza" is a pejorative name is just a claim. Largely supported by Kurdish nationalist because of their nationalistic aspiration. Can they really prove that? No, absolutely not! Turks claimed that the word "Kurd" came from the word "Turk". When Kurds were going over the snowy mountains, the Turks used to claim, their steps made sound kaart kuurt kaart kuurt. Even Turks didn't believe in this explanation. But for nationalistic purposes, They pedaled this theory for many years. The same thing is happening from the Kurdish side now.
I am myself a Zaza, and for people from my hometown that word is something to feel proud of. Some people used to say that the Zazaki language has many "z" sounds , and that's why they call themselves "Zaza". Well infact, "z" sounds in Zazaki is just very few. On the other hand, some Zaza nationalists says the Zaza word comes from Sasani. They say "s" sounds became "z". A lot of people come up with a lot of etymologies. But they all home cooked etymologies.
You seemed to be an educated person on Iranian languages. If you want learn Zazaki language's position, You should read this article. *Paul, Ludwig. (1998) "The Position of Zazaki Among West Iranian languages" University of Hamburg,[3]. I took/am taking Old Persian, Avestan and Zoroastrian classes at the University of California from Prof. Martin Schwartz and I read the book "The Grammer of Southern Tati Dialaects" by Ehsan Yarshater. It seems Zazaki is very close to Tati, Talishi and old Azari language, a long with Hewrami. Daraheni (talk) 01:22, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the link to the Paul article. The diagram of the isoglosses is great. Since we have texts of Old Persian we know that PIE *tr- yielded ç- in Old Persian and later s- in Persian. PIE k' yielded θ in Old Persian and h in Persian. Now did PIE *tw yield θw or θ in Old Persian? Tw later became h in Persian. I am curious if the Kurdish s- from PIE *tr- is just a parallel development with Persian or is this a common development. Do we know what the Old Kurdish form was? It does appear to be that due to the sound changes, perhaps the various branches of Western Iranian do transition into each other. Azalea pomp (talk) 08:30, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Azalea, Zaza and Gorani are closest relatives of each other. Then they are kin to Baluchi and Kurdish. The only and ever Specific closeness between Zaza-Gorani and Caspean languages, is the present marker in Zazaki which is “-en-“ and seems to share the same root with Gilaki “-n-“ and Mazandarani/Sangsari “-end-“. Though other Caspean languages such as Talyshi “-de-/-be-“ and Semnani “me-“, and Surprisingly Daylami dialect of Gilaki, don’t represent it.

It’s not an exact proof but take a brief look at these examples: Zaza “waz “ Gorani “waz “, Baluchi “gwaz”, Kurdish “xwaz”, but Gilaki “xa”, Mazandarani “xa”, Sangsari-Semnani “ge”, Talyshi “pé” ~ want. Zaza “asin”, Gorani “asin”, Baluchi “asin”, Kurdish “asin”, Gilaki “ahin”, Mazandarani “ahin”, Semnani Sangsari “ahen”, Talyshi “asen” ~ iron. Zaza “ke”, Gorani “ker”, Baluchi “ker”, Kurdish “ke”, Gilaki “kun”, Mazandarani Sangsari “kin”, Semnani “ker”, Talyshi “ker” ~ do. Zaza “her”, Gorani “her”, Baluchi “her”, Kurdish “ker”, Gilaki, Mazandarani, Sangsari, Semnani, Talyshi “xer” ~ donkey, ass. Zaza “waya min / birayé to”, Gorani “wala min / birayu te”, Baluchi “mene gwar / mene birar “, Kurdish “xweha min / birayé te”, but Gilaki “mí xaxûr/ tí berar”, Mazandarani “mé xaxér / té bérar”, Sangsari “mi xaxir / ti birar”, Talysh “çémé xole / éshté bira “ ~ my sister / your brother.

Also Luri is grammatically a Persian dialect which is lexically influenced by Kurdish.

And I didn’t say to change the Pejorative term of Zaza. Unfortunately as a result of Turkish intrusion, outside of Northern Kurdistan (Turkish Kurdistan), scholars designate Zaza as a generic term. Meanwhile Kirmancki, Kirdki and Dimili are true local names with clear etymologies and concepts. “Zaza” term being pejorative is asserted by several scholars, one of them McKenzie. Now, I don’t say to change the article name into Dimili or Kirdki or Kirmancki, but I insist to make mention of pejorative meaning of Zaza name as well as indicating Kirdki and Dimbuli and Gíní as another alternative local names along with Kirmancki, Zone Ma, So-Bé. These all are just stuffs which have been plucked from the article unjustly.

But as my personal confidence, I do believe that Zazaki language is diffused in the Northern Kurdistan after migration of Gorani (Hewrami) speaking Kurds, who brought their creed (Yarsan, Ahle Heq, Alevism) to there. For instance it’s very amazing that when almost all Iranian languages (particularly Northwestern and Southwestern) use ”xweda”, “xuda”, “xoday”, “xodavendegar”, etc. for “God”; in Zazaki language there is no trace of it and they, surprisingly, use “Heq” or “Humay” instead of “God”. Indeed these two terms, heq and humay, are merely used among Kurdish Yarsans to describe God (as Justice and Right ~ Heq) and Ali bin Abi Talib (as Sacred Bird of God ~ Humay). The famous Iranian poem abt Ali, composed by Shariyar, also ascribes Homa to Ali bin Abi Talib > Ali ey homaye rahmat… = Ali thou the Sacred Bird of Mercy.

Anyways God willing I am gathering evidences since last year and I am abt witting an issue on Zazaki language and its correlation with other Iranian languages in Persian, English, and Kurdish to introduce in the Iranian scientific festival. If we could take 70 years linguistic and cultural prohibition in Turkey, if we could witness slaughtering 12,000 civilians by chemical bombs in Iraq, but I can’t bear infringement on our cultural and linguistic legacy any longer.--Tua ParolaKak_Language 09:37, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Look my friend, your claims on the word "Zaza" is just a reflection of your nationalistic ambitions. First of all, the word "Zaza" is what people identify themselves with. It seems you just hate the word Zaza. Your hatred is amazing, and its shows similarities to that Turkish hatred to the the word "Kurd". This is unbelievable! The word "Kird" as you claim is actually what Greeks called nomadic people in the eastern Anatolia. It is not Kird, it is actually Kirt. Kurdish nationalists like you try to give this name to Zazas just to brand "Zazas" as Kurd. Well this is a cheap-shot. Does it matter what Zazas call themselves. It doesn't matter. Call Zazas XXX, it won't change anything. It is just a useless afford. The word is getting smaller, information getting across borders very fast. Nationalism doesn't work in this century. It is a history. You seem to does not understand this. Daraheni (talk) 06:31, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Well Luri-Bakhtiari is not a dialect of Persian (L-B does not descend from Old or Middle Persian...), but they both along with Fars, Lari, North Tat, and Bashkardi form the Southwest branch of Western Iranian.
Not sure if I misunderstood you, but while Zaza and Gorani are probably closer to each other, they don't descend from each other, but they probably do descend from a common source. This is due to them having different sound changes from Old Iranian. Can anyone find the Gorani outcome of Proto-Iranian *fr-?
I wonder too since all Iranian languages are close with the borrowings from Persian, if this is a simple borrowing from Persian or a contamination? For example English "sister" is said to be both the native Old English form as well as the Scandinavian borrowing since both forms were so close anyway. This the Scandinavian term was so close to the native English one, it contaminated it. Perhaps had the Persian forms been way too different, they wouldn't have been borrowed, but since they were pretty close, they got borrowed? I don't know, but it is something to ponder. :) Azalea pomp (talk) 18:22, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
The other side of the issue is that Persian too has many borrowed words from other Iranian languages. Like, zimistān (winter), āvāz, zārāniyā (gold), šhar (city), āsp (horse) and many more. I think the issue is a two way street. Seems like it is more from Persian to others. Daraheni (talk) 06:44, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Zaza dialect forms source[edit]

I found this source which was on the Zazaki language page from German wikipedia:

Perhaps we can quote from this as well as other sources to make some tables of examples for Zaza. Azalea pomp (talk) 05:33, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I know the writer of this paper. I emailed him couple of times. He seems to be very knowledgeable. It is a good resource. --Daraheni (talk) 06:45, 30 April 2009 (UTC)


Corrections include:

  • Adding the other Indigenous Names that were unjustly omitted: Kirdki, Dimbulki, Gini.
  • Indicating Kurds as another native speakers along with Zazas.
  • Putting Gorani and Gilaki (supposedly closest relatives of Zazaki) entries in the tables instead of unecessary Persian and Pashto.
  • Adding Kurdish entries from Central and Southern dialects.
  • Putting Parthian along with Avestan, as an indicator of Middle Iranian.
  • Making mention of Arabic, and Turkish loans in charts.
  • Making a comparison table between Zazaki, Old Daylami, and Kurdish in order to illustrate the similarities and differences.--Kak_Language 14:12, 30 April 2009 (UTC) Tua Parola
Well, this article is not about Kurdish. Okay. If you want to add Sorani variants, open another column and add the words. Otherwise, you cannot edit this article with your Kurdish nationalist perspective. This page is not about Kurds. Kurds doesn't speak Zazaki. This is just evident. You cannot take out Persian and Pashto words. They are very important languages in the Iranian-Aryan languages family. It is good to see those comparisons. Daraheni (talk) 15:43, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
I agree this is the Zaza page. We don't need to make the table too cumbersome by adding every Iranian language. For Kurdish, only have one column. Include different dialect forms only when they are substantially different. If Kurds are native speakers of Zaza please include an academic source which states this. The inclusion of Gorani and Gilaki will be good for the table. I agree Pashto can go off the table. Persian should stay on the table. Also, we should have the table only include cognates not borrowings.
Have the table like this: Avestan, Zaza, Gorani, Gilaki, Kurdish, and Persian. Azalea pomp (talk) 16:21, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
I agree with you that Pashto can be removed since it is less comparable. Instead of Gilaki, Southern Tati and Talishi variants should be included since they are closer to Zazaki. For Kurdish, Kurmanci and Sorani should have different columns. Kurdish is a language group, just like Zaza-Gorani. The the equivalence of Kurdish is Zaza-Gorani. Kurmanci and Sorani are different from each other that even Iraqi Kurdistan government has banned Kurmanci in schools in favor of Sorani. --Daraheni (talk) 17:33, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

I fulfilled the correction. Academic sources on the Kurdish background of Zazaki speakers are added. Also I contemplate that Parthian entries are helpful too. Since Zazaki represents an incredible comformity with Parthian languge, which is obvious in the tables.

Also, Daraheni, you must keep your delirious ideas about Kurdish language (Kurmanci and Sorani dialects) for yourself. You can whisper them all the time en route to school, but for here, give it a rest.--Kak_Language 07:37, 2 May 2009 (UTC)Tua Parola

What correction. Most of them were wrong. Daraheni (talk) 20:02, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
Dont vandalize without scientific reason. I put academic source for Kurds peaking Zaza. Also if you think tables are wrong, first share your academic reasons here then we will conclude. Dont vandalize.--Kak_Language 20:43, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
There is no vandalizm. This language is not spoken by Kurds. You are just trying to advance Kurdish nationalist ideas. You want scientific works, yes they are on the page. I also recommend you to take a look at this table isogloss table, Paul Ludwig's Article, and [check out this book]. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Daraheni (talkcontribs) 06:34, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

thr sound changes in Gilaki, etc,[edit]

Gilaki also has "r" as an outcome of thr. For example, the word dare as in sickle. I assume the "s" outcome is due to Persian. The Kurdish "s" outcome is not from Persian. Azalea pomp (talk) 15:36, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

I put "hr" for Gilaki. Well I think it's still obscure. For example Kurdish and Persian both have "shahr"/"shar" for "xshathra". While Kurdish alos has "chatar" for "chithra".--Kak_Language 20:43, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
For Gilaki, native *thr words yield r, not hr. Gilaki has had heavy influence from Persian though and there are many loans. Azalea pomp (talk) 08:31, 3 May 2009 (UTC)


Some one should stop this vandal, Daraheni, who's deleting parts of the main article, despite of their academic source, only for his own personal reasons.--Kak_Language 03:47, 3 May 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kak Language (talkcontribs)

You are just trying to advance Kurdish nationalist views and shape the article with that. This is not tolerable. --Daraheni (talk) 06:36, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
I strictly recommand you, dont blank without reason! What for you delete the attested informations abt Kurdishness of Zaza speakers?!! Stop vandalism.--Kak_Language 09:33, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Kurdish nationalist? The zaza people are by themselves the pure Kurdish people, how can Kurds tell themselves that they are nationalists? Well, when the Turkish state made unfortunatly the Kurdish people un-educated, they mix them up and make difference between som edialect of the pure language that is Kurdish and the country Kurdistan, that has an history of more that 7,000 years! Please, read about the Kurdish history and tell me who are the real Kurds, Zaza, Kirmanci, SOrani, Gorani, Kelhuri, they all are Kurds but speak different dialects of Kurdish language, due to the geography of Kurdistan because people didnät manage go to eachother because of the maountains, which made the Kurdish language have different dialect, which marks the richness of the Kurdish language.-- (talk) 14:11, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Adding information[edit]

Before anyone adds any information. Please read all of the Encyclopedia Iranica articles on the various Iranian languages and dialects. No one should assume sound change outcomes or etymologies unless they can source them. Also, everyone should keep the language neutral and not biased. This is the page about the Zaza language and thus it should only be about the language. Also, everyone should try to source an academic source. The tables should not include loans and make sure you know what is a loan versus inherited vocabulary or have loans clearly marked. Again PIE *w or Pir *w does not yield h... If you are going to include Persian data, please include the long a marked as ā and do not leave it unmarked!
Also, before you add any information or make big changes to the main page, put them here first so everyone can check for accuracy. Azalea pomp (talk) 08:21, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
here are the tables:
Avstan Parthian Zazaki Gorani Gilaki Kurdish Persian English
v w v v v / b / g w / b / g b / g / v -
vate- wat va va va wa, ba bad wind
var- war-an varan varan varan waran, weršt baran rain
v w važ, vaj , vaz v gu (dissimilar root) wêž , bêž guy (dissimilar root) say; sing
veze- wez vaz vaz vaz bez, wez vez run, jump; blow
verik- welg velg velg velg welg , gela berg leaf
'ves 'wes bes bes bes bes bes enough
ved- -- veyv veyve géše wewí , bûk beyug bride
verek werek verek verek véré berx, werk berré lamb
'ví 'bí bé bé bí bé, wé bí without (prefix)
vefre- wefr- vewr verwe verf wefr , befr berf snow
veín- wén vén, vín vín vín wín , bín bín see
vire- wir vír vír yad (dissimilar root) wír, bír yad (dissimilar root) memory
víseítí wíst víst víst bíst bíst bíst twenty
vítheve wéwe víya véwe bíve bêwe bíve widow
veéítí wíd viyal ví -- bí bíd willow
-- wadam vam vam, vaham badom wayam , behív badam almond
veíč wéž víž, víj, víz véč elek gudin (dissimilar root) wiž, b bíz screen, sieve
viris -- veyšan ewra víšta 'wirsí, birsí gorosné , gošné hungry
verd- war vil vil gul gorale gol flower
virid-eke -- velık velk qulvé gurčik, wulk qolvé, gordé kidney
vehrike- werg verg verg vérg gurg, wurg gorg wolf
ver- werad vurrayen varray vagerdin guhartin , gorran gérayíden change, switch, shift

Avstan Parthian Zazaki Gorani Gilaki Kurdish Persian English
z/s z/s z/s z/s d (?)/s z/s d/s -
ziride- zírd zerre zél díl (loan) dil (loan), zirg (midst of birds) dél heart
zerenye- zern zerrn zerr tela (loan) zérr, zerren-ker (gold-smith) zerr, tela (loan) gold
zan zan zan zan don (loan) zan dan know
zematere- zamat zama zema doma zama, zama damad groom
ezim ez ez ez (classic) mu (dissimilar root) ez (min) men (dissimilar root) I
'ves 'wes bes bes bes bes bes enough
beriz-ente berz berz berz bulend (loan) berz, bilind (loan) bolend ( < beridente) high, tall
dese des des des (classical) deh (laon) deh (loan) deh ten
Avstan Parthian Zazaki Gorani Gilaki Kurdish Persian English
č / j č / ž ž / j / z č / ž j / z ž / š z -
jeíní- žen cení žení zenay žin zen woman, wife
jen- žen jin žen zen žen zen play instrument, beat
v w važ, vaj , vaz v gu (dissimilar root) wêž , bêž guy (dissimilar root) say; sing
jív žíw jíwyayen žíwyay zíndigí (loan) žíyan zísten live
heče-upeírí -- jor čor jor žor zéber up
he'če-edhere -- jér čér jír žér zír down
heče- čé ji če jí že, ži ez from
čít ž zí, ží (loan) č hem (dissimilar) ží, -íš z too, also
reoče rož rož, roj, roz roč ruj rož ruz day
vače- waž važ, vaj, vaz vač gu (dis.) ž, wéš guy (dis.) snow
erja- eržan erzan, eržan, erjan erzan (loan) erzan (loan) erzan (loan) erzan inexpensive, cheap
nima- nimaž nimaž, nimaj, nemaz nima nemaz niméž nemaz prayings, prayer

Avstan Parthian Zazaki Gorani Gilaki Kurdish Persian English
dv b b b b d d -
dvere- ber keyber ber belte derí der door
-- -- veng vang (in enclaves) veng (weep, cry) deng bang (loan) voice, sound

Avstan Parthian Zazaki Gorani Gilaki Kurdish Persian English
-- d/b b d/b d d d -
-- bíd bín dí díké din, ewtir díger other
-- dumb bočik dim dumb dučik dom tail, appendix

Avstan Parthian Zazaki Gorani Gilaki Kurdish Persian English
thr hr hr yr s s s -
thrí hiré hirí yerí su sé sé three
thríseítí -- hirés yerís sí sí sí thirty

Avstan Parthian Zazaki Gorani Gilaki Kurdish Persian English
w w / f / h w / h w h w / h h -
neve neh new no, nû noh now, neh noh nine
čethwer čefar čihar čuwar čahar čiwar čehar four
čethweroseití -- čewrés čil číl čil čéhél say; sing
-- kefwen kehan kew kuh kewn kohen antique, olden
neve neweg newe new wé no, tazé (dis.) no, tazé new, fresh

Avstan Parthian Zazaki Gorani Gilaki Kurdish Persian English
rd / rz rd / r / rz rr / l / rz l / r / rz l r / rč / l / rz l / rz -
berirze berz berz berz bulend (loan) berz bolend ( < birdente) high, tall
heriz- rz erz herz él l l let, allow
spirizen -- serpez sipil taal (loan) spil ésporz (loan?) spleen
seridde sard serr sal sal sal sal year
ziride rd zerre ll díl (loan) zirg, dil (loan) l heart
ve'ride-eke -- velik velk quvé gu'ik, wulk qolvé, gordé kidney
verd- war vil vil gul gorale gol flower

Avstan Parthian Zazaki Gorani Gilaki Kurdish Persian English
xv wx w w x xw x -
xvefne- wxab witen witey xutin xewtin xabíden sleep
xvet wxed xo, xwi (loan) wé xu xwe xod self
xv wx w w xéš xw x sweet, happy
xvuní goxuní guní wuní xun xwín xun blood
xven- wxend wenden wendey xondin xwendin xanden read
'xverite- 'wxard werden wardey xordin xwerdin xorden eat
xveh- wxar wa walé xaxur xweh xaher sister
-- wxašt- wašten wastey xasén xwastin xasten want

Avstan Parthian Zazaki Gorani Gilaki Kurdish Persian English
m m m m m m / v m -
namen- nam name namé nom nav, nam nam name
zematere- zamat zama zema doma zama, zava damad groom
jeme- gam gam gam gam gav, gam gam step, stride
hemen- -- hamnan hamna tabéson (dis.) havín tabéstan (dis.) summer
zime- zimistan zimistan zimistan ziméson zimistan, zivistan méstan winter
heme- enbaz hembaz hamaz šerík (loan) hemaz enbaz participant
heme- hamal heval (loan) hamal réfíq (loan) hemal, heval refíq (loan) peer, friend

Avstan Parthian Zazaki Gorani Gilaki Kurdish Persian English
f / p / w f / w / m w f / w f w / f f -
hepte- heft hewt heft, hewt heft heft, hewt heft seven
kepte- keft kewten keftey, kewtey ketin keftin, kewtin oftad (dis.) fall
greube- gíríft girewten girtey gíftin girtin géréften ' take, grip
kefe- kef kew kef kef kef kef foam
vefre- wefr vewre verwe verf wefr, bewr (sub-dialectal) berf snow
xvefne- wxemn hewn werm (dis.) xu xewn xab dream

Zazaki Gorani Gilaki Kurdish Persian Turkish Arabic English
loan loan loan loan loan origin origin -
kitav, kitab kitaw kítab kitav, kitéw kétab -- kítab book
Heq Heq (Yarsan) -- Heq (Yarsan) -- -- heq (right) God
werdek werdek ordek werdek ordek ördek -- duck
hikat hikat híkayet hikat hékayet -- híkaye fiction, tale
hewl, hol -- -- hol (southern) -- -- hel? (legalize) good
qise kerden qise kerdey -- qise kirdin -- -- qísse (story) speak, converse
welat wilat -- welat -- -- vílaye (district) country

Here is a comparison between remaining of Old Daylami[1] words and their Zazaki counterparts:
Parthian Old Daylami Zazaki Gorani Gilaki Kurdish Persian English
- - - - - - - -
firíšteg xenadé, xanadé risnayox kíyaste firistadé šand féréstadé apostle, messenger
espar esvar espar siwar sivar siwar sevar mounted, horseback
-- xole qin qin xolé (~hole) kin, hol (~hole) kun anus, rectum
purd pord pird pird purd pird pol bridge
-- perdeníšín sindoriž perdeníšín perre- perdeníš merznéšín marginal
-- títí meté, dayé dédé títí (folkloric) títik khalé, mader reverential word to call ladies
-- tíf dirr dirr, téx tíf dirrik tígh thorn
češm čem čim, čem čem čum čav češm eye
xaneg sím key yane xoné mal, xanû xané house
ber símber keyber yaneber belte derwaze deré xané port, house-door
forûšeg forûše helwa helwa fûrûšé helwa helva halva
-- kaljar lec ceng ceng; kaljar ceng, šerr ceng, deva battle; farm
-- kol kift kol kûl kol kul shoulder
-- Gíl, Gílik Dimil, Kirmanc, Kird Kurd Gíl, Gilik Kurd, Kurmanc Fars native names
-- déh dew, dega dega déh gund, dé déh, rusta village
-- déhče dewiž, dewij, dewiz degayí déhí gundí rustayí villager
hemíšeg hemíšek hemíše hemíše hemíšek hemíše hemíšé always
key kíya serok serok kíya serok, key serkerdé, kéy commander, king
-- kuš xebetnayen enekošey kuš košín, tékošín kušíden attempt, effort
kof kuh ko, kûwe ko, šax kuh kéf, kûwe, čiya kuh mountain
-- meng; meh ašmí; meng mang mehto, meng; meh heyve, meng; meh mehtab; mah moon; month
-- čak mérg mérg čak mérg merghzar meadow
šehr šar bajar, šar (~people) šar šehr šar, bajar šehr city
wažar bašehr bazar, bajar, bacar (city) bazar (loan) bazar (loan) bazar (loan), bajar bazar bazaar
xan xaní hení, yení hane xaní kaní, kení xan fountain, spring
Now we can talk abt the above data. Also when a language has lost the original word and uses a loan; should we leave it blank?!
By the way, did I add something wrong to this Zazaki page?! Attested information abt Kurdishness of the speakers, is wrong?! Martin van Bruinessen, who's well-known for his works on ME people, specially Kurds; Asserts that "Virtually all Zaza speakers consider themselves, and are consider by the Kurmanci speakers, as Kurds..." file [[4]]--Kak_Language 09:33, 3 May 2009 (UTC)--Kak_Language 09:35, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the tables within here. I will look over the data and make up comments. My first comment is that we need to include the "long a" for Persian marked as ā. Since this is a language page, we don't need to include much information on the obviously disputed topic about ethnic identity. I think a statement such as the Zaza speakers some of whom identify as Kurds...and leave it as that. "Some" is a great undetermined number so we aren't causing any arguments. :) Azalea pomp (talk) 17:22, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
Comments (more on the way) Persian 7 is haft. We don't need to include stress or acute accent marks on words.
The spelling is Avestan not Avstan. Azalea pomp
We have "dare" (sickle) in Gilaki. This is "dās" in Persian. Do you guys know the Zaza word?
We need a section for Proto-Iranian *fr outcomes.
The Kurdish words for four with the w are Gorani loans. The other may or may not be Persian loans. I will make more comments later tonight.
The South Kurdish forms of w- is due to Gorani influence. The b- forms are the Kurdish outcomes for North and Central dialects (from Proto-Iranian *w). I suggest everyone read the Kurdish language article in Encyclopaedia Iranica.
Here are more regular outcomes:
Avestan xv should be written xv
Also, I think we should either use IPA or some transliteration that every language should share on the table. Having the various orthographies such as some languages using the Tukrish based one while other just a generic transliteration is going to confuse the table. So we use either ʒ for ž and not j. Or dʒ or j and not c.
Parthian three: hrē, Zazaki three: hīrē (varies by dialect), etc.
Here is another source with information on Kurdish sound changes and some additional info on Zaza and Gorani: Azalea pomp (talk) 21:31, 3 May 2009 (UTC)


  1. ^ Gilan name, majmue-ye maqalat-e gilanshenasi, jeld-e sheshom

What is the purpose of the page and tables?[edit]

The purpose of this page is to give information specific to Zazaki.

The purpose of the tables on the page is to give the development of Proto-Indo-European sounds in the Zazaki language. It has this function of sound development. These sound developments are evident through scholarly studies. The purpose of putting Kurmanci and Persian words is to answer the claims of that Zazaki is Kurdish (or Kurmanci) dialect by Kurmanci Kurdish nationalist of Turkey. There is actually a whole section in the article under the "controversy of classification" heading. Those Persian and Kurmanci columns have that purpose and to answer the "controversy". (Persian and Kurmanci columns can be removed given that the "controversy" section is also removed. Actually there is no controversy about classification.)

However, the purpose of the those tables above written by Kak Language has no specific value to Zazaki. It is just comparison of words through some Iranian languages. Why should Zazaki page has to include all these messy and questionable information. Why not Kurdish, Persian, or others? The place of those tables should be the page for Iranian languages. --Daraheni (talk) 21:53, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

The tables are getting too big as well. We only need one set of cognates per sound change, not 5 or more examples... Azalea pomp (talk)
Why do you trim all those tables? May be it is okay to trim initial-v table. I brought back some of the data and completely erased -ew- table, the last table. So far, two tables are completely gone, and one is trimmed. I think that is good enough. Daraheni (talk) 07:12, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
We don't need multiple examples of the same sound changes. Readers get the point after one or two examples, five or ten examples is sloppy. Also, the -ew table was totally wrong. Proto-Iranian (PIr) *ft yields very different results and has nothing to do with -ew-. *hafta is the PIr form not *hawta. I changed it to say "wt" now. I will do more research on what PIr w yields in the daughter languages. Also Zaza b is from PIr dw, not d! Read over this table carefully again: Azalea pomp (talk) 08:48, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
Nice table. Thanks for the link. Daraheni (talk) 15:18, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Why do we need 15 examples of PIE *w-[edit]

I think this is quite sloppy. We don't need 15 examples for 1 or 2 sound changes. No more than five examples (and clearing out any loans) is quite sufficient. Why do we need 15 examples for a sound change? We get the point after 1 or 2 examples. It is much too cumbersome. Please select a few examples which are best suited as an example (no loan words). Azalea pomp (talk) 08:54, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Central Zaza[edit]

I didn't find references to Central Zaza or Central Zazaki. I did find that Ethnologue, that is used as the basis for the /* Zaza languages */ section, lists Kirmanjki as the language of Bingol and other areas where Central Zazaki is alleged. --Bejnar (talk) 20:14, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Kurdish or Kurmanji citations? It makes confusions![edit]

Regarding the science of antrapology and genetic studies, speakers of Zazki(Dımılki), Gorani(Hewrami), Kurmanji, Sorani, Luri, kelhuri, Bahtiyari do not differ racially from each other though they differs much from other iranian groups in many aspects. But in the course of time, Kurds, being members of different religions and using different religious books of different languages had some impect on their origional language. And other social, cultural and political expositions made some modifications on their language regionally. Zazaki or Gorani[Hewrami)seem to be the least modiefied remains of old kurdish language spoken by medians and partians and other ansestors of kurds and also closest to ancient sacred language of avesta and scripts of yaresan or alevi beleifs among all other kurdi languages.

The use of the term "Kurdish" should be defined. As Kurdish in this article means Kurmanji/kurmancî it should be stated. Why Kurmanji is used should also be motivated, as kurmanji is the farthest of the kurdish dialects you could come from Dimilí. Even Soraní is closer to Dimilí, however the closest is Hewramí and Guraní.

I id change all Kurdis citation into Kurmanji, because it brings confusions, on which part of kurdish is talking?!! Here all given exemples were in kurmanji thats why i change it!--Alsace38 (talk) 12:32, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Kidnapping a link?[edit]

This edit would appear to be an effort to kidnap a link. I leave it to someone else to decide whether either or both actually should be linked. - Jmabel | Talk 02:00, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

zazaki speaker are kurds too see here source[edit]

we kurds were before persians hereon thsi world.we are kurds from kurdistan. pls edit page

zazaki speaker are kurds here source pls edit quicly thsi page. source :

greets agit —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 08:46, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

zaza kurds ,kurd=kurdistan[edit]

here source map :zazaki gorani kurmanci sornai =kurdish

link :


+we are not iranic people!pls change it!

you make us kurds only ridicolis ,we are not iranic people .we are only aryan speaking people aryan is not a iran folk.aryan isno t a race!please change it,otherwise i will report to court because of national insult .


serhad —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 17:25, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

about kurdish language here true sources[edit]



in zazaki city dersim won kurdish national party BDP .that s a point too! —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 11:56, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

zazaki speaker are kurds too see here source[edit]

here :

Is Ankara Promoting Zaza Nationalism to Divide the Kurds? Wladimir van Wilgenburg

Is Ankara Promoting Zaza Nationalism to Divide the Kurds?

Publication: Terrorism Focus Volume: 6 Issue: 3

January 28, 2009 01:48 PM Age: 290 days

Category: Terrorism Focus, Global Terrorism Analysis, Turkey, Terrorism

By: Wladimir van Wilgenburg

Until recently, speakers of the Zaza language within Turkey have been considered part of the vast Kurdish ethnic group spread over Turkey, Iraq, Iran, and Syria. In the 1980s, the creation of a Latin alphabet suitable for Zaza-language publishing created a renewal in Zaza literature and culture, leading to the development of a type of Zaza nationalism that some Kurds suspect is inspired by Turkey’s intelligence agencies as a means of dividing the Kurds and weakening the Kurdish militants of the Kurdistan Workers Party (Partiya Karkeren Kurdistan - PKK).

Zaza nationalism is still opposed by some Zaza-speakers who consider themselves Kurds. [1] Zaza nationalism is focused on the Zazaki dialect and native Zazaki speakers in Turkey. Some Zaza nationalists also want an independent Zaza homeland called Zazaistan in Turkey, potentially weakening the appeal of the PKK among speakers of the Zazaki dialect.

In terms of faith, the Zaza (whose numbers depend on still-contentious ethnic and linguistic definitions but may be placed between one to three million) are roughly divided between Sunni Muslims and Alevis. Usually Zazaki speakers are called Kurds, and Zazaki is considered as a Kurdish language by Kurdish nationalists and many scientists. Zaza nationalists argue that they form their own people on the basis of a lack of mutual comprehensibility between Zaza and the Kurmanci dialect of Kurdish, spoken by nearly 80% of all ethnic Kurds. Some linguists argue that Zaza is not related to the Kurdish language or its dialects. However, ethnic identities are influenced by subjective factors as much as objective factors like genetics and linguistics. Ethnic identities in general are social constructions and can be influenced by state policies.

Zaza nationalism grew primarily in the European Zaza diaspora where the differences between the Kurmanci and Zazaki dialects became more visible due to the freer environment. In Europe, migrants from Turkey were not forced to learn Turkish, but could choose between Kurmanci and Zazaki as a “mother language.” This resulted in Zaza-nationalism in some cases. [2] Another factor was the opposition of some Kurdish nationalists to Zazaki publications. Currently Zaza “nationalism” is still largely a matter of exile politics and seems to be a marginal phenomenon, but it is also starting to influence the debate on ethnic identity in Turkey.

The recent discussion about “mother language education” in Turkey and the policy of the Justice and Development Party (Adalet ve Kalkınma Partisi - AKP) government to open a Kurdish-language television station could strengthen the divisions between Kurmanci and Zaza speakers (see Terrorism Focus, January 13). The current TRT 6 channel only broadcasts in Kurmanci, but there are also plans to broadcast in the “Kurdish dialects Zaza and Sorani” (Hurriyet, January 2). This was welcomed by several Zaza speakers (, January 7). On internet forums, however, Zaza nationalists have already emphasized that they want a Zaza channel, not a Kurdish Kurmanci channel.

Anthropologist Martin van Bruinessen has described the popular conspiracy theory among Kurds that Zaza nationalism is a machination of the Turkish intelligence services. [3] The claims of Kurdish nationalists may not be completely unfounded. In fact, many Turkish nationalists support the notion that Zazas are not Kurds. They think this could hasten the assimilation of Kurds and weaken support for the PKK.

In 1996 the Turkish Democracy Foundation (TDF - a non-governmental organization devoted to “the creation of a stable democracy in Turkey”) published a small booklet condemning the PKK’s brand of Kurdish nationalism. They focused on the “heterogeneous” nature of Kurds and emphasized that some Zazas do not see themselves as Kurdish. The booklet noted that Kurds would rather be part of a democratic Turkey than become “part of a heterogeneous community entangled in intertribal violence and marked with the hegemony of tribal thinking.” [4]

But Turkish interest in the cultural heterogeneity of Kurds is older. The Turkish nationalist Hasan Resit Tankut proposed in 1961 to create a Turkish corridor between Zaza and Kurmanci speakers to accelerate their integration into Turkish culture. Some other Turkish authors have presented the Zaza speakers as a distinct ethnic group, different from the Kurds. [5]

Some Kurds have suggested a link between the Sunni founder of Zaza-nationalism, Ebubekir Pamukcu (d.1993), and the Turkish intelligence services, accusing Pamukcu of helping split the Kurdish nation. The Zaza-nationalistic movement was welcomed and financially supported by certain circles in Turkey’s intelligence establishment and Pamukcu has since been accused of having ties to Turkish intelligence. [6] A Zaza publisher in Ankara is believed by some Kurds to be controlled by the Turkish intelligence services. In an interview with Kurdmedia, Kurdish nationalist and Zazaki linguist Mehemed Malmisanij said the name of this “Zazaistan” publisher was the “Zaza Culture and Publication House” and was part of the Turkish intelligence services with the task of attacking the Kurdish nationalist movement. “The conclusion that I draw… is that these [Zaza nationalist groups] were groups based in the state, or with a more favorable expression, groups that thought in parallel with the state” (, October 6, 2003).

PKK-leader Abdullah Ocalan also claimed that Turkey’s National Intelligence Organization (Milli Istihbarat Teskilati – MIT) is behind the growing political and cultural activities of the Zazas in Turkey: “The MIT is behind this. They are doing this to stop the development of Kurdish national consciousness.” [7]

There are also signs a separate Zaza identity is getting more attention in the political sphere. Turkey’s Nationalist Movement Party (Milliyetci Hareket Partisi - MHP) has never used the Kurdish language in political statements, but MHP member Abdullah Arzakcı made a surprising speech in Kurdish in 2006 in which he said, “I'm Zaza, I'm Kurd. There is no Kurdish problem.” (Zaman, 15 may 2006). Arzakcı intended to show that it is no longer a problem in Turkey to call oneself Kurdish or Zaza.

In 2007 the polling company Konda took an important step by making an ethnic differentiation between Zazas and Kurds (Milliyet, March 22, 2007). Earlier a Turkish nationalist think-tank reported on “Zaza-Kurds” and there are steadily more Turkish newspapers and online publications that conclude Zazas are not Kurds. An example is the contribution of a Zaza reader to the newspaper Today’s Zaman. She stressed that there are “millions of Kurds, Zazas and Laz who do not see themselves as different from their Turkish brothers and sisters, and their problems are no different from the problems of this country.” The writer emphasized her loyalty to Turkey (Today’s Zaman, August 23, 2008).

Even Turkish premier Recep Tayyip Erdogan made a distinction between the Zazas and Kurds when he visited Hakkari in November 2008 (Zaman, November 2, 2008). The former mayor of Sur in Diyarbakir province, Abdullah Demirbas (a member of the ethnic-Kurdish Democratic Society Party – DTP), recently denied the existence of any influence from Zaza-nationalism on the population of southeast Turkey, but it is clear Turkish politicians are starting to distinguish between the Zazas and Kurds (Kurmanci-speakers), apparently to weaken Kurdish nationalist claims (, January 20).

Most Zaza nationalists are hostile to the PKK, something that can be useful to Ankara in its fight against Kurdish militancy. Zaza nationalists accuse the PKK of “anti-Zaza” activities and blame both the Turkish military and the PKK for the depopulation of Zaza regions. [8] Zaza nationalists fear assimilation from both Kurdish nationalists and the Turkish state.

It is likely that the Zaza identity could become another tool in the political battle between Turkey and the Kurdish nationalists. A freer cultural climate in Turkey with more space for education in native tongues like Zazaki and Kurmanci could also eliminate the concept of a “Turkish enemy” among non-Turkish ethnicities. In this case the nationalism of the Kurds could become a bigger threat to Zaza speakers than Turkish nationalism.

The problem is that Turks fear that this will result in the end of the state due to the presence of many ethnicities in Turkey. The Ottoman Empire was divided into ethnic regions (Greek, Armenian, Kurdish, etc) by the Allied Forces after World War I with the 1920 Treaty of Sevres. This has made the Turks afraid of once more losing territory to ethnic nationalists, a condition some call “Sevres paranoia.”

In the end Zaza-nationalism could play a role in the ongoing Turkish-Kurdish debate, but it is not clear whether the Zaza-identity will become popular among Zaza-speakers who still classify themselves as Turks and Kurds. If the Zaza-identity becomes more popular, this could decrease support among the one to three million Zazas for the PKK and weaken Kurdish nationalism.


1. Martin van Bruinessen, "Kurdish Nationalism and Competing Ethnic Loyalties", Original English version of: "Nationalisme kurde et ethnicités intra-kurdes," Peuples Méditerranéens no. 68-69 (1994), pp.11-37. 2. Martin van Bruinessen, op cit. 3. Ibid. 4. Turkish Democracy Foundation, Fact Book on Turkey Kurds and the PKK terrorism, 1996. URL: 5. Martin van Bruinessen, “Constructions of ethnic identity in the late Ottoman Empire and Republican Turkey: The Kurds and Their Others,” March 8, 1997. 6. Ibid. 7. Unpublished interview by Paul White with PKK leader Abdullah Ocalan, at the Mahsum Korkmaz Akademisi, Lebanon, July 2, 1992. 8. Zulfü Selcan, Grammatik der Zaza-Sprache, Nord-Dialekt (Dersim-Dialekt), Wissenschaft & Technik Verlag, Berlin, 1998 —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 00:15, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

as long as a racist state like germany does not support terrorism to divide kurdish and turkish people i don't think anybody really cares if you are a Zaza,persian ,turkish, german or kurdish.

terrorism is not the answer — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 22:14, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Non-Linguistic Speculation[edit]

That non-linguistic, poorly referenced, and purely speculative drivel about Zazaki being an old form preserved because of religious connections has no place in this article. Even mentioning it, without any reliable linguistic source is WP:UNDUE. Until there is a reliable linguistic source, it should be left out. --Taivo (talk) 12:58, 13 June 2011 (UTC)


The ethnicity of Zazaki speakers is completely immaterial to a discussion of the Zazaki language (which is the point of this article). Argue ethnic identity elsewhere, this article is for language issues only. Zazaki speakers could be Kurds, Arabs, Turks, Englishmen, Native Americans, or Martians for all that it matters to this article. --Taivo (talk) 01:31, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

I witnessed edits by users who are under influence of the Kurdish nationalists theories in this article and Zaza people. Their (Kurdish nationalists') prominent characteristic and inclination are not to allow different notable theories. In fact, some scholars support Kurdish theories, but other scholars suggests different theories and not support Kurdish ethnocentric point of views. -- Takabeg (talk) 05:24, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
The point that they don't understand is that this article has nothing to do with ethnicity. It is strictly an article about language. They are also unable to properly use sources, since the "authority" they are citing as "proving the Kurdish nature of the Zaza people" isn't an article about ethnicity at all, but an article about theoretical syntax. Apples and oranges. --Taivo (talk) 05:50, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
Please stop fighting on ethnological issues, but try to contribute to the "zazaki" article, we don't care about ethnicity of.. or...! given exemples: on all aryans (or iranians) languages famillies... only kurmanjî and zazakî are ergatif tongs! only zazakî and kurmanjî got gender names (feminin/masculin), only zazakî and kurdmanjî got voyels "ê,u,'a,'e,'û", only kurmanjî and zazakî got consonns like "w, kh, qh, ph, rh,". But no "neutral" linguist in the world did develop those questions, so before telling soming on zaza or zazakî try to learn that lang. And stop saying pls as well "kurdish nationalism" which is getting untrue! --Alsace38 (talk) 18:29, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Alsace, there is no "ethnological issue" here--this is an article about a language, not about the ethnicity of the people who speak it. --Taivo (talk) 23:06, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
Taivo, do you really know more than all of us about our identity? Can you explain the matter? Why is it a problem for you? Why we cant say: speakers of Zazaki language are Kurds? People dont wanna know who are those speakers? i think, you should stop to decide instead of us! Kurds (Zaza, Soran, Goran, Kurmanj) can decide ;) --Gomada (talk) 20:49, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
I don't care what you think about "your identity". I care about scientific accuracy. The linguistic science (not your politics or your ethnicity or what you want to be true), is that Zazaki is not a dialect of Kurdish, but is separate from the Kurdish dialects. --Taivo (talk) 20:55, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
I think, you dont read what i wrote on article. I wrote, Zazaki is spoken by Kurds. But, You tell me, Zazaki is not a dialect of Kurdish. First understand the difference and then discuss! --Gomada (talk) 20:58, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
This is NOT an article about ethnicity, but about a language. Go to the Zazaki people page and write about Kurdishness, but this article is about a language. --Taivo (talk) 21:01, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Seriously? i didnt know that :p Then go to change all articles of languages. For example Waneci dialect, i dont wanna see, that its spoken by Tareen tribes! Bro, i think you have problem with Kurds. You dont try to do it correctly. There is no problem, if people know, Zazaki is spoken by Kurds. Why do you make it such a big problem? if you keep that, then please go to change all articles of languages.--Gomada (talk) 21:06, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Sarikoli language is spoken by Tajiks. Taivo, do you wanna delete it? --Gomada (talk) 21:09, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
I hope, you understood my point and you dont keep this unnecessary fight. Revert the article to my edit please.--Gomada (talk) 21:16, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Gomada, despite your impassioned pleas, you haven't really made a case for adding it here. This article has a problem with Kurdish nationals trying to edit in that Zazaki is a Kurdish language. That is not a problem at other articles. But the real problem with your edit was that your references were inadequate. A UN declaration that inaccurately states that Zazaki is a "dialect of Kurdish" isn't a reliable source. Find a source that says something like "Although Zazaki is not a dialect of Kurdish, Zazaki speakers claim Kurdish ethnicity" or something like that and I'll be more inclined to listen to your arguments. But as long as your sources confuse language and ethnicity or make inaccurate claims about the relationship between Zazaki and Kurdish languages, then they are not reliable sources for this article. --Taivo (talk) 21:21, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
I knew that you have problem about Kurds (: You showed that clearly. i will explain a source for you. Take a look at That website belongs to Zaza authors and linguists. Maybe you dont know Malmisanij, J. Îhsan Espar, Roşan Lezgin or their all crew called Vate group. Today, These people are the only authors, linguists who create zaza literature and protect this language. If you dont respect to Vate Group, you cant try to protect Zazaki language. Because not you, They protect Zazaki language by their books, researches, newspapers etc. Roşan Lezgin is a zaza author, poet and translator of Zazaki language. In short, Nowadays for Zazaki language, such person is very important. Because, Zazaki language is under risk of extinction. Read his writing well, then you will understand Zazas. Dont think that, you know more than me about Zazaki, Kurmanji or other languages of Kurdish people. im a person who can speak them. I live this culture and i dont learn it from somewhere as you did. But, you dont respect to my people. Dont find funny reasons, if you dont accept sources, discuss about sources! But, you directly delete word of Kurds. In Sarikoli language, Waneci dialect or others , there is no source but you still didnt delete the nations. In short, if you really are sincere about reality, think and decide what you want. Dont close your eyes and behave as an anti-Kurd.--Gomada (talk) 08:59, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
I have nothing for or against Kurds. I am against scientific inaccuracy in any form. That website is not a scientific linguistic website, it is a site promoting the ethnic identity of Zazakis (the people) as Kurds. It is not about linguistics. Perhaps you don't understand what linguistics is. It is not "literature" or the "preservation of literature". That very statement shows that you know little about linguistics. This comment on that website, "Compared to other Kurdish dialects," shows that this website is a non-linguistic website as well and promotes the linguistic falsehood that Zazaki is a Kurdish dialect. I have told you the criteria for an appropriate and reliable source for this comment of yours. The source must state something along the lines of "Although the Zazaki language is not a Kurdish dialect, the people consider themselves to be Kurdish." This website does no such thing, but maintains the scientific inaccuracy of calling the Zazaki language a "Kurdish dialect". --Taivo (talk) 09:23, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
The biographies of the two gentlemen you posted are well and good and I'm sure they are fine men who love their people and write very good Zazaki literature. But they are not linguists. Therefore they are unqualified to serve as reliable sources for this article concerning the Zazaki language or to make comments about the relationship of Zazaki to other languages, specifically Kurdish. --Taivo (talk) 09:28, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
I will not waste my time with you anymore. Because you dont even believe in your words too. Why dont you answer to my questions? Why dont you do same to all other articles of languages? i gave you simple examples : Sarikoli language, Waneci dialect . If you are not againist Kurds, why dont you do same? Lets think that, there is no source. There is a way for this in Wikipedia, you put fact to end of word, you dont delete. But you are totatally againist Kurds, therefore you just delete. I told you, read well and then decide, but you didnt read and you just keep your mistake. Malmisanij is unqualified? This is the funniest comment about Zaza and Malmisanij. If you are so interested in Zaza language and culture, i advise you to meet Malmisanij in real life. Im serious, meet him and then decide about him. Dont decide people as you know everything. Btw, I talked about VATE group, which has more than 40 members and there are linguists, authors, poets, researchers, etc. in the group. If you really believe that, you know more than VATE group about zaza language and culture, tell me. i will respect to you and stop. Seriously, i have respect for people who know themselves.--Gomada (talk) 10:06, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
You have not built a consensus here in violation of Wikipedia policy. I have been crystal clear here on what I would accept as a reliable source, but you have simply turned a blind eye and push your agenda. Since you have not a single scientific source and only political sources, you are simply ignoring the facts. --Taivo (talk) 10:42, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
While you ranted and raved and felt personally wronged by the scientific facts and my request for a scientific source, you failed to notice that the last of your sources actually met my criteria. I hadn't noticed the key paragraph the first time I read it. However, the ethnic comment is better placed at the end of the paragraph rather than the beginning because there is a difference between the scientific fact that their language is not a Kurdish dialect, but their self-identification as Kurds. This dissonance was hidden by placing it where you placed the comment. Your other references were simply invalid because they included non-linguistic and unscientific comments about Zazaki being a Kurdish dialect or ignored the linguistic issue altogether. Had you not gone off on a personal attack you would have seen that this source worked for me right away and would have saved yourself a lot of trouble. Next time, rather than ranting and raving about the other editor, I suggest you actually examine your evidence and see if your evidence already meets the criteria in order to establish consensus. --Taivo (talk) 10:56, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
You continue to muddy the waters to misplace the statement about Zaza ethnicity. Since the Zaza claim to be something that they are linguistically not, it is important to be clear with readers, otherwise you simply confuse them. Stop trying to hide the fact that Kurds do not speak Zazaki, but the Zazaki claim to be Kurds. That is the simply fact, but simply saying that Zazaki is spoken by Kurds hides the confusion and will lead the casual reader to think that Zazaki is a Kurdish language. The statement about ethnicity is most appropriately placed at the end of the paragraph so that the confusion can be avoided. --Taivo (talk) 13:43, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
You behave as a child. Whatever, its totally wasting time with you. By the way, you wrote wrong again. Zaza = 1 person ;) you shoud write; Zazas or Zaza people.--Gomada (talk) 14:39, 12 May 2012 (UTC)


Hello everybody! The people of Kurdistan have a rich diversity, because of its long history of more than 5,000 years. Zaza Kurdish is one of the important Kurdish dialects, but unfortunately due to the enemies of Kurdistan, they have always wanted to divide the Kurdish people that have different dialects as Zazaki (dimilkî), Hewramî, Kurmancî, Soranî and Kelhorî. We, the people of Kurdistan are more stronger than the conspirational ideas that want to divide the Kurdish people. Because we the Kurds have not studied our history and don't even know who we are and how rich history and language we have, we might think that Zaza Kurds are a different people, but that is as wrong as saying that the earth is not round!!! For God's sake, Zaza dialect of Kurdish language are really close to Hewramî Kurdish dialect that is spoken in the region between Iraqi Kurdistan and Iranian Kurdistan. Zaza dialect is also spoken by Shabak Kurds around the city of Mosul is Iraqi Kurdistan/Iraq. Zaza Kurds are KURDS, GOd created them as Kurds, ask Salahettin Demirtas, Gülten Kisanak and Nilufer Akbal, they are KURDS and nothing else (Kurds are zaza, kurmanci, sorani, hewrami, kelhuri and so on). So PLEASE: READ THE RICH HISTORY OF MORE THAN 5,000 YEARS OF THE KURDISH PEOPLE AND KURDISTAN BEFORE LETTING THE ENEMIES OF KURDISTAN IN TURKEY, IRAN, IRAQ AND SYRIA DECIDE WHO YOU ARE AND WHO YOU AREN'T! KURDISTAN IS KURDISTAN AND CANNOT BE DIVIDED, BECAUSE KURDISTAN HAS A RICH HISTORY AND HAs NATURALLY EXISTED AND HAVE NOT IMMIGRATED FROM MANGOLIA AND BY FORCE OCCUPATED THE REGION! You have to know yourself first before talking to others!!!! READ YOUR HISTORY FROM MANEY SOURCES!!!!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 16:00, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Zazaki language[edit]

"Zazaki" is the most common name for the language in English, therefore should remain the name of the article. The most recent compendium of information on the Iranian languages uses "Zazaki": Ludwig Paul, "Zazaki", The Iranian Languages, ed. Gernot Windfuhr (2009, Routledge), pages 545-586. --Taivo (talk) 10:48, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

The article should be moved to "Zaza language". The most common name in English-language sources is Zaza or Zāzā, e.g. Ethnologue[5] and some articles in iranicaonline[6][7] are using it. Khestwol (talk) 12:52, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
I don't think it's the most common name. At best, "Zaza" is equally frequent. I've cited the most recent grammatical source in English above and Paul Ludwig, who is probably the leading authority on Zazaki (he's published the most on the language), uses Zazaki exclusively. He is the expert. On your sources, the first Iranica on-line link uses "Dimli", and cites Gernot Windfuhr, "Dialectology and Topics", The Iranian Languages, ed. Gernot Windfuhr (2009, Routledge), pages 5-42 as its source. But Windfuhr also only uses "Zazaki". Ethnologue doesn't use "Zaza" for the individual language, but for the "macrolanguage" which includes Kirmanjki. These macrolanguage labels are not language labels, but are more like sociolinguistic subgroup labels. The language label used by Ethnologue for this language is "Dimli", not "Zaza". The experts appear to use "Zazaki" (with "Dimli" as the second most common). --Taivo (talk) 16:58, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
Please stop speaking on something you don't have any idea! The main problem with "Paul Ludwid", he doesn't speak zazaki at all: he knows just words and ready phrases: i have spoken with him: to told to me "i prefer to speak english or german". Paul Ludwig did make for his "university doctorate" the grammar of zazakî! But here to say that zazaki is close or not to kurdish, he must first know kurdish language! But he doesn't know kurdish also. He only make comparaison of words between zazaki and kurdish. What can we say more? Is "ancyclopedia iranica" really sincer or is the institut under the love of Iran??
english persian zazaki kurmanci bulgarian
i know midânam ez dizono ez dizanim az znam
you know midâni ti dizana tu dizanî ti znayş
i don't know nemidânam ez nizon ez nizanim az neznam
you don't know nemidâni ti nizona tu nizanî ti niznayş
a dog sag kûtik kûtchik (kûçik) kutche (kûçe)
my wife zanâne-am djina mi jina min jena mi

--Alsace38 (talk) 12:15, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

The comparaison of linguistists are only on the words but not with the grammmar, and the grammar of zazaki or kurdish is more close to bulgarian thant to any iranian tongs!

please stop to pollute this article with Paul Ludwig, he dosn't know anything, his book is not scientifical! he knows a dew word, that is all! --Alsace38 (talk) 15:40, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
Ludwig is not the only linguist who states the simple linguistic facts, his article is just in the first book that I grabbed off my shelf. Zazaki is not a Kurdish language. Period. The Zazaki people claim that they are Kurdish, but that's an entirely different, and completely non-linguistic, unscientific issue. The linguistics of the matter are crystal clear--Zazaki is not a Kurdish language. --Taivo (talk) 16:23, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
Ludwig take himself for something he is not! lol he speak better persian than zazaki, he doesn t know any kurdish word! but he can say that kurdish is or not...! Lol By the way i didn't understand your behaviour, why did you clean up this source " Ivan Nasidze et al. 2005. "MtDNA and Y-chromosome Variation in Kurdish Groups," Annals of Human Genetics 69:401-412. online" ??! ONU didn't accept the zaza people even the europe council, so stop to say nothing say are kurds, genetically it's attested (have a look at what you cleand up) --Alsace38 (talk) 20:21, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
Zazaki and kurmanci are the only "iranian languages" who have feminin/masculin casus! only zazaki and kurmanci are ergatif tongs no more "iranian tongs" are ergatif! Only kurmanci and zazaki among all "iranian tongs" have those consoms "kh, ph, lh, rh, rr, tch... So stop speaking on something you don't know. Paul ludwig did never speak on this issue because he is iranist, so he loves iran something like a pro-iran. --Alsace38 (talk) 20:28, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
You apparently either didn't understand my comment or you simply refuse to understand the science. I clearly stated that Ludwig is not the only scholar who places the Zazaki language outside Kurdish. Genetics has absolutely nothing to do with linguistics so the genetics reference is immaterial. It's like putting a reference to "Twinkle, twinkle little star" in the middle of an astronomy article. It's irrelevant. Your second comment simply illustrates that you don't understand the science of historical linguistics. You have a non-linguist's view of language relationship--"They sound alike, so they must be related". It's unscientific. The consensus among historical linguists is that Zazaki is not part of the Kurdish branch. All your wishing it weren't so won't change that. --Taivo (talk) 20:49, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
you cannot say that genetics is irrelevant, it's a non-sence! zaza are kurd. So we must say zaza are geneticaly kurds but they don't speak a kurdish language? I know you love linguistic but here it's to much complexe --Alsace38 (talk) 10:55, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
Genetics are irrelevant to the issue of language relationship. Language is not carried in the genetic code. --Taivo (talk) 11:43, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
If you don't accept genetic that's your matter and point of vue, but not of wikipedia standard vieuw. Secondly stop giving every time evry way paul ludwid exemple, it becomes borring and repetitve --Alsace38 (talk) 13:56, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
No, it's not my "point of view", it is the point of view of the great majority of historical linguists who work on the Iranian languages. Ludwig is not the only linguist who asserts this fact, but you seem to be blind to that fact and are fixating on Ludwig. --Taivo (talk) 14:42, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
Ok Taivo, but there is a dilemn, on the classification of zazaki, we must be neutral, that is why you mus accept my contribution on this article: the classification of zazaki (an indenpendent tong or a kurdish one) : ok? Because i have a lot a scientist and linguist which agree to say that zazaki is kurdish, so according to wiki-laws, we must be neutral and we shall give the 2 point of vieuw, oki? (i forget i am a kurdish kurmanci girl, not zaza, lol...) --Alsace38 (talk) 20:37, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
There is no dilemma at all. The great majority of specialists in Iranian languages put Zazaki outside of Kurdish as a separate branch of Western Iranian. It's not even disputed in the mainstream historical linguistic literature. Your POV is WP:FRINGE. If you want even a mention of it included, you're going to have to show some mainstream historical linguists who espouse that view. --Taivo (talk) 20:45, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
I have to apologize, I got confused between this issue and another. We already list the minority view that Zazaki is Kurdish. It doesn't require any more mention or emphasis because is it a minority view. It should not have undue weight. --Taivo (talk) 20:51, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
look at it paul ludwig say that zazaki is closer to caspian tongs? --Alsace38 (talk) 20:54, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
nations of the world, organisation says zazaki is kurdish, --Alsace38 (talk) 21:01, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
As I have said a dozen times already, Ludwig is not the only Iranian historical linguist. And the Google Books link you give is not any more reliable a source as Britannica. It is not a specialized historical linguistic source. Indeed, it is ethnically based ultimately and not linguistically based. You don't seem to know what a proper historical linguistic source on the Iranian languages actually looks like. Apparently you're not able to read your own links even. The first link you give (which is not a reliable source because Wikipedia cannot rely on itself) still shows Zazaki and Kurdish on different branches. In other words, Zazaki is not a dialect of Kurdish on that chart. --Taivo (talk) 21:14, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 6 May 2015[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (non-admin closure) kennethaw88talk 03:22, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Zazaki languageZaza language – Per WP:COMMONNAME. "Zaza language" is common but "Zazaki" is used rarely. Per the Google Books search, "Zaza language" gets about 465 results, but "Zazaki language" gets only about 61 results. Per WP:CONCISE. "Zazaki" is longer than "Zaza", because of a suffix with 2 extra characters (k, and i). "Zaza language" is the optimal title for this page. --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 03:33, 16 May 2015 (UTC) Khestwol (talk) 23:25, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Note about move discussion[edit]

A related move discussion is open at Zaza people's talk page. Khestwol (talk) 23:45, 6 May 2015 (UTC)

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According to @Wikaviani:, this source supports the article's claim that the Zazaki alphabet includes letters such as eth, thorn, o-stroke, and aesh. From what I can see of the article, nothing there corroborates anything of the sort (although I don't understand Zazaki, so there's possibly some context I'm missing). If you take a look at the diq:Zazaki article on Zazaki WP, you can also observe that it uses an orthography similar to Kurdish and does not use æ, ð, ø, or þ as this article claims. Would those of you who believe the source supports the table in the article explain why? Snorepion (talk) 03:21, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Also, apparently the Zazaki alphabet page has a completely different table with a decent source. That appears to be the correct one. Snorepion (talk) 18:04, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Removal of content[edit]

Some sentences have been unsourced for years without any attempt to find a reliable source for the claims. Instead of having all those unsourced segments, they should be removed. Furthermore, the File:Zaza DialectsMap-5.gif is not sourced and can be misleading. Again, why have it in the article. --Ahmedo Semsurî (talk) 18:29, 18 May 2019 (UTC)