Template:Did you know nominations/Peter Hamm

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Peter Hamm

Peter Hamm in 2017
Peter Hamm in 2017
  • Reviewed: Eastern Parkway
  • Comment: left school at age 14, broke up apprenticeship ... - and became one of the most respected literary critics, - better wording welcome

Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 08:42, 28 July 2019 (UTC).

User:The Rambling Man is welcome to review. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:43, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the invitation Gerda. As far as the article criteria are concerned, I see no issues. Nominated on the day it was created, long enough, meets policy, generally meets MOS, and I can't see obvious copyvio so that's all good. Onto the hook... a few comments:
    1. "he was age 17" he could have been 16, the article only specifies a year when the poems were published, and that year he would have been 16 or 17.
    2. "met authors such as Sarah Kirsch and Paul Celan to learn how to write?" in the literal sense, he already knew how to "write". Moreover, he already knew how to "write poetry" (being a published poet before meeting these authors).
    3. The article only mentions Nelly Sachs by name as an author he corresponded with to improve his writing skills (ah, there it is, perhaps he "corresponded with authors such as Nelly Sachs to improve his writing skills?").
  • Symbol question.svg So in summary, I'm fine with the article (although naturally I'll reserve the right to give it a copyedit) but the hook needs some work. I don't doubt that it might well be all accurate, but currently it's not matching precisely what's being said in the article and that's a fundamental DYK issue. Cheers. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 08:56, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for the review. I add the age 17 to the article (which is mentioned in the source, as a header even, and is on the less sensational side compared to 16.
ALT1: ... that Peter Hamm (pictured), whose first poems were printed when he was age 17, met authors such as Sarah Kirsch and Paul Celan to improve his writing skills? (vs. any studies at a university). - I don't know how to hint at that, trying:
ALT2: ... that Peter Hamm (pictured), whose first poems were printed when he was age 17, never studied at a university, but met authors such as Sarah Kirsch and Paul Celan to improve his writing skills?
What do you think of using the icon for a neutral "questions"? (I understand the other as "leaning towards no", reading "more work" as meaning "considerably more work to an extent that one might hesitate to undertake it", but may be wrong.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:00, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
Sure, I'm not sure it makes much difference which icon I picked, but hey, next time I'll pick the other one. I prefer ALT 2 I think but "did not study at university, but..." in preference to your proposed wording, a little bit more natural sounding to my English ears... The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 12:33, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
Always grateful for help with English:
ALT3: ... that Peter Hamm (pictured), whose first poems were printed when he was age 17, did not study at university, but met authors such as Sarah Kirsch and Paul Celan to improve his writing skills?
I often (have to) explain that it doesn't really make a difference if the tick is green or blue, and I I choose blue whenever I need to accept anything - not just the hook - AGF. Thanks for explaining. Please strike all hooks you don't support, instead of thinking the promoter will read prose about a preference. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:43, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
Now, being ultra-picky, the article doesn't 100% back that claim up literally, it mentions Kirsch and Celan in a sentence about "meeting" them, and then mentions not studying but communicating with "with [unnamed] authors" other than Nelly Sachs. Do you see what I'm getting at? I'm sure ref [1] covers all this, but the article just needs a little bit of work to make sure the hook is mentioned directly in the article. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 15:51, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
I'll look, but rehearsal first, Vespers ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:29, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
The ref doesn't cover exactly this. It says that he learned with people, not at university. ("Peter Hamm hat die Literatur anstatt an Universitäten von früh an bei den Dichter*innen und Schriftsteller*innen selber studiert, bei Ingeborg Bachmann, Ilse Aichinger oder Nelly Sachs, mit der er einen Briefwechsel führte.") About Kirsch and Celan, it says that he travelled to meet them. It further says that this special education resulted in him being interested in people rather than academics ("Diese besondere Ausbildung brachte einen Geist hervor, dem die Menschen und ihr Schreiben immer wichtiger waren als alles Akademische. Ihm kam es in Poesie und Prosa auf existenzielle Beweggründe an und auf ein präzises hellhöriges Nachempfinden. Theorien, Methoden oder Konzepte waren nicht seine Sache." translated as "This special education produced a spirit to which people and their writing were always more important than anything academic. In poetry and prose, he was interested in existential motives and a precise, clairaudient understanding. Theories, methods or concepts were not his thing.") What can we take of it? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:14, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
Then we stick with the source directly and what is in the article, i.e. you can pick a hook from (a) he met with Kirsch/Celan, or (b) he communicated with Sachs to improve his writing. I'm still not seeing anywhere which says he met with Kirsch/Celan to improve his writing. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 08:18, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
I will need help with wording. The unusual thing is that he - a school drop-out met these giants of literature. We could say so without any intention about his own writing. Amazing that they received him, btw. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:45, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
ALT3: ... that the author, editor and literary critic Peter Hamm (pictured), who had his first poems printed at age 17, did not study at university, but met authors such as Sarah Kirsch and Paul Celan?
I'd like to say he made collections of poetry by European young authors, ut we have only 200 chars. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:45, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
I know this is a little tortuous for which I apologise, but meeting those authors (for me) is a little meh. If, however, you remain convinced that others will be impressed (personally, I've never heard of Kirsch nor Celan) then I would defer. However, ALT3 is still a little clunky, he didn't meet the authors instead of going to university, but he was guided/inspired/? by having met them... the other thing to consider is that he was already a published poet at the age of 17, and yet not going to university and meeting these individuals has no obvious consequence in the hook at all... The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 11:01, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
If you haven't met Celan, please do so (Todesfuge). - How about the first half of the hook for those who don't know much, and the rest for those who will be highly impressed by that name. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:10, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
Problem is there's still no obvious link or clear need for our hook readers to link "not going to university" with "meeting authors".... The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 12:17, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
Isn't DYK for finding out what something means? "met" is aomehow too weak a word for that boy travelling from Germany to France ... - not a per-chance-meeting.
ALT4: ... that the author, editor and literary critic Peter Hamm (pictured), who had his first poems printed at age 17, did not study at university, but pursued meeting authors, such as Paul Celan in Paris?
ALT5: ... that the author, editor and literary critic Peter Hamm (pictured), who had his first poems printed at age 17, did not study at university, but pursued contact with authors such as Paul Celan and Nelly Sachs. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:39, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
Well no, DYK is for writing something interesting that will attract more than a handful of people (hence "interesting to a broad audience") so a priori knowledge (e.g. prominence of Celan/Sachs et al) detracts from that goal. However, according to the article he didn't "pursue meeting" or "pursue contact", he actually did meet them, right? I guess the point we're trying to get across is that he sought to improve his skill by meeting with other poets rather than pursuing a university career? The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 13:13, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
Yes, and I said a while ago that I may need help wording that. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:25, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for trying, - now I'm the critic: that tells me just that he liked meeting a great person better than studies. No surprise. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:27, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
  • ALT7: ... that the author, editor and literary critic Peter Hamm (pictured), whose first poems were printed at age 17, favoured inspiration from authors such as Paul Celan over formal education? (as long as the source can substantiate this?) The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 10:33, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
I seem to be just as picky: it still reads as if he only "favoured", meaning "doing one thing with more enthusiasm than the other", - only, he didn't do the other. He didn't even finish an apprenticeship. One more try please, then I'll come up with somehing totally different ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:09, 14 August 2019 (UTC
I like that, thanks you so much! Now you will probably best use the icon for new reviewer needed, and strike all hooks that should not be it, - likely all others. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:29, 14 August 2019 (UTC)
Symbol redirect vote 4.svg As you like, and as you know, this will be goodbye from me on this review. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Staying alive since 2005!) 15:01, 14 August 2019 (UTC)