Template:Did you know nominations/Rinse the Blood Off My Toga

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by — Maile (talk) 02:24, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

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Rinse the Blood Off My Toga

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  • ... that "Rinse the Blood Off My Toga", Wayne and Shuster's most famous comedy sketch, re-casts Shakespeare's historical tragedy Julius Caesar as a detective story with gangster overtones? Source: "Though 'The Shakespearean Baseball Game: A Comedy of Errors, Hits and Runs' was arguably their signature skit, the most famous was their first for Sullivan in 1958, a bit which they had already honed on CBC radio in the early 1940s. In 'Rinse the Blood Off My Toga,' Wayne hammed it up as 'Flavius Maximus,' a toga-clad private eye in ancient Rome who's on the case to find the wiseguy who killed ol' Julie Caesar." (Canada on Screen); "The play's characters are treated as if they had Mob connections as Flavius looks for Mr. Big." (Seventh Sanctum)

Created by Yoninah (talk) and Reidgreg (talk). Nominated by Yoninah (talk) at 22:18, 15 July 2019 (UTC).

  • Article meets DYK nomination requirements, no close paraphrasing found, QPQ done. The hook is interesting, but I have concerns about the sourcing. I don't have access to the sources that state that the sketch was the duo's "most celebrated", but in the reference used for the same statement in the lede (which I can access), there is no mention of this and in fact another sketch is mentioned to be their most famous instead. In addition, the source used to reference the gangster overtones does not appear to explicitly mention the term "gangster" nor imply it (it only seems to use "detective" from my quick reading of it). Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 01:09, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
    • @Narutolovehinata5: Thank you for the review. There are several elements to the script. One is a detective story, a la Dragnet. Another is the gangster narrative, characterized by the reference to Julius Caesar as "Big Julie" and other dialogue in the script which is not mentioned here. Of course, I paraphrased the source (I posted the relevant sentence from the source above) rather than use the word "Mob". The Wikipedia article on Gangster begins: A gangster is a criminal who is a member of a gang. Some gangs are considered to be part of organized crime. I thought that was a fair paraphrase. Another offline source, including the relevant quote, has been added for "most celebrated". Yoninah (talk) 11:18, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
      • (edit conflict) I've added a |quote= to the offline citation for "most celebrated". I have sources which call it a "tough" or "hard boiled" detective story, and gangster/mobster overtones are typical of the detective genre, but I haven't spotted a source which specifically says gangster or mobster. I'll try looking again. – Reidgreg (talk) 11:49, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
        • I found Mustang News “Rinse the Blood off my Toga,” a skit about Julius Caesar but set to a gangster murder mystery theme and dialogue. and Theatre Alberta "It is a parody of the death of Julius Caesar, using the cool, gangster-type style of the novels of Mickey Spillane to poke fun at Shakespeare's tragedy." Will add that shortly. Checked Done. – Reidgreg (talk) 12:22, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
      • BTW, I was wondering if it would be any better to use "skit" instead of "sketch"? We start out calling it a "comedy sketch" so I think it's clear, but "skit" has fewer meanings than "sketch" and so might be more specific and less ambiguous (and less vulnerable to misinterpretation by machine translators). – Reidgreg (talk) 11:49, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
      • Thanks, Reidgreg. I'm good with "skit". I just called it "sketch" because of the Wikipedia article Sketch comedy. Yoninah (talk) 12:12, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the edits. However, I still have concerns about the "most celebrated" or "most famous part". The quote said that the duo agreed that it was their "most celebrated" but it doesn't outright say that it was, and other sources in the article seem to dispute that it was their most celebrated (as I raised above), and I'm not sure if the TIFF source given above is enough to settle the matter. I'm starting to think it might be better to just simply remove the "most famous" part from the hook and just mention that it was a sketch by Wayne and Shuster. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 21:29, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
  • We could do that. I was just concerned that telling the plot only would be "in-universe". If you want a different hook, give me some time to think about it. Yoninah (talk) 21:47, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
I didn't actually realize that the hook might fall afoul of the "needs to be in-universe" guideline, but eh. Looking at the article again, I can think of three possibilities: one could be on how they were sent a letter saying "Canada is proud of you", another could be how their appearance on The Ed Sullivan Show boosted that show's ratings from the doldrums, and another could be about how some catchphrases from the sketch became iconic. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:15, 16 July 2019 (UTC)
If it was "Big Julie took it in the rotunda", that'd be in-universe. This discusses it as a sketch, which should be fine. Dropping the "most famous/celebrated" part would make the hook shorter and concentrate on the Shakespeare/gangster parody angle (and we can assume it's famous since it has its own article). There's definitely an angle for the catchphrases. I tend to like ALT0 which is about the sketch itself; the ratings angle makes it about Sullivan and the "martinus" angle starts to make it more about Manhattan. Though unexpected facts like that may be hookier to US readers. – Reidgreg (talk) 08:30, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
Give me another day or two to post new hooks. The name of the sketch will draw in a lot of clicks, so I'd like to retain that. Yoninah (talk) 11:52, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
I think ALT1 has potential, but I feel it might be a bit too niche since I don't think the duo are well-known outside of North America (I've personally never even heard of them before this nomination). Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:45, 17 July 2019 (UTC)
Sorry, I think you're throwing around the word "niche" too freely. Wikipedia is a global encyclopedia. Not everyone in every country is going to relate to every hook unless they click on them. (By the same token, aren't your Japanese voice actresses hooks "niche"? Everything is niche around here.) I have provided a link to Wayne and Shuster without having to spell out that they are a Canadian comedy duo. The emphasis in the hook is on the bolded subject, which everyone is invited to click on to learn more. Yoninah (talk)
Well, I suppose you have a point there. In any case, perhaps there could be reworded somehow, like changing the order of facts. I fear though that if this does happen, it could ruin the catchiness of the hook. I'll give this some thought and will reply with my final thoughts by tomorrow. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 12:29, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
(edit conflict) It's a historical subject, but W&S were extremely big in their time (one US reviewer said the Ed Sullivan Show should be renamed for them) and highly influential (the most obvious example being Shuster mentoring his son-in-law, Lorne Michaels, who created Saturday Night Live). They were pretty much the only ones doing sketch comedy on television when everyone else was doing stand-up. An Australian indie band released this 2015 song, "6pm Wayne & Shuster" about nostalgic television, with a chorus that repeats "rinse off the blood" and "Julie don't go". Admittedly, an indie band is niche, but for an Australian band to point to W&S as nostalgic TV, and to pick this sketch from 80 syndicated episodes, suggests it is fairly well-known today to people of a certain age. –Reidgreg (talk) 12:43, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
  • I like ALT3, thanks! Yoninah (talk) 21:32, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
My preference is ALT2, but I really don't know if the wording is enough to satisfy the "real world" requirement. My backup is still some variation of ALT1, though I'm not sure about the exact wording to be used. Perhaps an emphasis on the ratings increase? I'm also open to ALT3. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:28, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
  • ALT1 is talking about the ratings. Yoninah (talk) 23:30, 18 July 2019 (UTC)
I meant putting the ratings part earlier on in the hook, instead of at the end. On the other hand, another option could be something like "When Wayne and Shuster performed Rinse the Blood Of My Toga...", which gives emphasis on Wayne and Shuster as well. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:53, 19 July 2019 (UTC)
  • @Narutolovehinata5: this isn't an English writing assignment; we're writing a hook that will be viewed for 24 hours and then forgotten. Can we please finish up here? If you don't like ALT2, just choose ALT1 or ALT3. We try to put the bolded subject near the beginning of the hook, not near the end. Thank you, Yoninah (talk) 21:14, 27 July 2019 (UTC)
On the contrary, the original hook and ALT2 were my preferred hooks, but I guess they aren't suitable due to the "in-universe" rule. Due to this, I guess we are left with ALT1 as the best option (though I kinda don't understand why the Dragnet mention is necessary, that part could have ended with just "as a detective story,". Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:09, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
  • @Narutolovehinata5: You're right. Striking Dragnet. I really don't think "in-universe" should be applied so strictly here. If we said, ... that Flavius Maximus investigates the assassination of Julius Caesar in "Rinse the Blood Off My Toga"? -- that's in-universe. But saying that Wayne and Shuster re-cast the Shakespearean play as a detective story is not. Yoninah (talk) 00:27, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
    • Is this the in-universe rule: H11: If the subject is a work of fiction or a fictional character, the hook must involve the real world in some way. I feel that these are all okay with respect to that. Talking about the genre and another play is decidedly out-of-universe, is it not? – Reidgreg (talk) 16:27, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
Requesting new reviewer for ALT2. Yoninah (talk) 20:37, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
ALT2 in my opinion probably doesn't fall under the "in-universe" rule, since while it discusses the plot, it mentions that the plot was written by real-world people. Thus, the hook reads as "That X wrote Y as a Z", instead of "That Y is Z". Still, I can understand where the concerns about in-universe things are coming from, and if we want to err on the side of caution, ALT1 still works as an alternative. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:14, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
  • Thank you. But ALT2 is punchier. Yoninah (talk) 23:40, 24 August 2019 (UTC)
  • I'm fine with ALT1, 2, or 3. Should we leave it to the promoter, to provide options for what best fits with the set? – Reidgreg (talk) 18:29, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
  • We need an approval tick first. Yoninah (talk) 22:32, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
ALT1, ALT2, ALT3 are all approved, but I prefer ALT2 and ALT3. Each is mentioned inline and properly cited, and I see no in-universe issues with any of the hooks. The article adheres to all other DYK policies as per the original review. Flibirigit (talk) 01:22, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
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