Template talk:Azerbaijanis

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to navigation Jump to search


Most Azeris are Iranians, and Azerbaijan Republic and Iran are the native lands of Azeris, so we should either add both the Iranian and Azeri Republic flags, or remove them both. --Mardavich 18:56, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

The historical homeland of Azeris includes more than just Iran and Azerbaijan. How shall we account for that? Parishan 01:47, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Like where? We can always remove both flags. But having the Republic's flag on its own, while most Azeris are Iranians, is a POV projection. --Mardavich 19:00, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
Like Georgia, Dagestan and Eastern Turkey. I don't think flags are a good idea anyway. Let's just replace it with a photo for now. Parishan 20:36, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

On a related note, most of the sub articles were about Azerbaijani Azeris, not all Azeris, so I made that a little more clear. kwami (talk) 23:17, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

New layout[edit]

I made a new layout for this template, the old one was to simple. Not much has changed in the new one, all the links are still the same, just new background and a nice picture of a bust. Baku87 (talk) 14:12, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Please do not change over what was a consensus[edit]

First of all what doi you mean in öther countries:| This suggests that republic of Azerbaijan is the main homeland of Azeris and all the others are diapora. this is wrong as Iran is the main homeland of the Azeri people. Secondly adding a fictional statute of a fictional persoan is very wrong. It is about a people. so the picture of people is more correct. Please do not change the template unilaterally.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 12:27, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

You need to calm down, I had no intention to stir things up or cause misguidance, it was just an honest mistake, which I corrected in the current version. Also this template is questionable is it about Azeris from the republic or Iranian Azeris? Because all the related links are about republic Azeris. To include the culture of Iranian Azeris would mean a complete drastic change in all the articles and your welcome to contribute to that if you wish but for now I believe both you and me can agree the articles within the template only show the culture of republic Azeris. Also I do not appreciate your revert, instead of quickly jump to revert perhaps you can try and edit. Baku87 (talk) 23:06, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Bax. San chox Anti-Iranlisan. For those who understand English: I brought sound reason why the picture is wrong. I also know that editors from the republic of Azerbaijan are always making an exclusive claim on the entire ethnic group, while their country only is home to less than a half (About one third) of the entire ethnic group. Yes if the links should be edited if they refer to rep. Azeris and exclusively nothing to the Iranian Azeris, I will do my best.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 23:45, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
The argument you used for your dissatisfaction with the current photo was: fictional statute of a fictional persoan. The statue is real it is not fictional, your just using that word fictional to mislead people and take that to your advantage. However the picture of the girls is incorrect depiction of Azeris, its like a photo from the 19th century and does not reflect the reality or today. So until we can find a more suitable photo we should use this picture of the statue as many other templates use them aswell. And why are you talking in Azeri language and why must you call me a anti-Iranian? What have I done wrong for you to reach such a conclusion. I have not made edits regarding Iran or any edits against Iranians. I find this a unpleasant statement. Why are you making this such a complicated issue, this is merely a template, there is no exclusive claim to a ethnic group or a conspiracy going on. I have not made such statements, your being very misleading here. Baku87 (talk) 16:16, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
So you are saying a picture of a stone of a character in oral stories is a better picture to introduce an ethnic group than those of human beings? Hmmm dubious. About your Anti-Iranianism: well I keep quiet here about it. I hope you can prove me wrong, though I hope you do not disappoint me. But I have a suggestion for you. You better rename the template as Republic of Azerbaijan, because it refers as you say mostly to the Republic of Azerbaijan than Azerbaijani as an ethnic group. We will make a template for Iranian Azeris if necessary. But again even for the republic of Azerbaijan: The stone picture is a bot misplaced. You may better use Qiz qalasy or Atashgah etc...--Babakexorramdin (talk) 23:18, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

I already remade the template as you wished, but I advise you to take a new picture.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 11:31, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

I did not say lets divide the Azeris into two, I merely pointed out that the cultural related articles of Azeris need to be expanded to include Iranian Azeris aswell. At the moment only Azeris from the republic are represented in the cultural articles, this needs to include Iranian Azeris aswell. The template should represent both the republic aswell as Iranian Azeris. Thats why the changes you made do not reflect the position of the template, also its wrong to include ethnic minorities in this template as it doesnt belong in it, we also left out alot more topics such as mugham, environment and history. This is a template about a ethnic group called Azeris. For now I re-added the picture of the girls, lets first settle the issue the articles and the structure.Baku87 (talk) 13:21, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
I changed the name back to Azers, removed ethnic minorities, putted the articles in alphabetical order and added Music, Literature, Theatre and Folk art as a new article. Baku87 (talk) 13:39, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
If you want to rename it as Azeris, then it should countain other things. It is unacceptable to call it Azeris the way it is right now. Remember that only about one third of Azeris live in the Republic of Azerbaijan. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 14:57, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
I know the situation of Iranian Azeris very well and if you are honest and fair you should know it aswell, anyway what do you suggest we add? There are very few articles related to Iranian Azeris. Perhaps we should create a new subgroup of history and add major historic timelines? One suggestion I have is that have to try and exclude counteries (Iran + Azerbaijan) and focus on the people itself, this will prevent problems aswell. Baku87 (talk) 13:25, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
The problem is that the links here refer to articles about the Azerbaijan Republic. Like sport in Azerbaijan republic, music in Azerbaijan republic. A solution would be to give links to the same categories in Iran e.g. sports in Iran. music in Iran politics in Iran etc... Iranian Azeris are heavily represented in the political and social affairs in Iran so that would be fair. Another solution is to rename this template to the republic of Azerbaijan and then we will make such template for Iran too. These new templates however should be multi-ethnic because Iran is such and the Republic of Azerbaijan is such to certain degrees.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 16:30, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
But you see the problem with your suggestion is that if we include Iran into these articles then its not about the Azeri group anymore, as Iranian includes mainly the Persian ethnic group and it will lead to mislead and confuse people. Also your idea goes both ways we will have to include links to the same categories for Azerbaijan in Iranian related articles. Its a nice suggestion but a bit to confusing for the readers out there, perhaps we could expand the articles by including Iranian Azeri related topics as a section into in. For example in Sport we could create two seperate sections 1st being Azerisand 2nd being Iranian Azeris and I say 1st being Azeris because Azerbaijan republic represents Azeri nation in the world and Iranian Azeris are represented as Iranians in the world. We will have to rewrite and organize most the the articles but it will be a solid structure.Baku87 (talk) 02:58, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Honestly I do not see the problem. Iran is not mainly Persian. In everything Iranian, Azeris are Overrepresented. It is not a good idea to create articles like Iranian Azeri sport, Iranian Fars Sports, Iranian Kurdish sports etc... Almost all clubs in Iran have players from all over Iran etc... What you can do is to rename the temple to the Republic of Azerbaijan. Then the article Azeris (or as Grandmaster wants it Azerbaijani) represents the ethnic group. Most of articles there now have connection to the republic of Azerbaijan any way. As I see the editors from republic of Azerbaijan have chosen a national (the whole republic) and not an ethnic approach (only Azeri ethnic group). Look at the lists of Azeris. The editors from the republic of Azerbaijan included also Russians and other ethnic groups, while the list of Iranian Azeris contain only the most notable Iranians of Azeri ethnicity. These are two different approaches. So in that case I will opt for renaming it. that's the best for every one.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 08:26, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
Im not here to discuss the issues you have with other members in wikipedia. I pointed out several times to you that this template is not governmential or political related, its about a ethnic group called the Azeris. Are people from Azerbaijan not Azeris? Azeris in Iran are known as Iranians, that is what they prefer. So there is absolute no reason to rename this article. Its a template about Azeri people thus the title is correct. (talk) 18:34, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
I do not remember I have had any communications with you, unless you are Baku87. Azeris in Iran call themselves Iranian by nationality and Azeri by ethnicity. Azeris in Azerbaijan call themselves Azerbaijani by nationality, so do the Talysh, L--Babakexorramdin (talk) 17:35, 8 November 2008 (UTC)ezgin, Tat etc...
Adding the section on Azeris in other countries does not automatically suggest they are diaspora. In fact, none of the communities mentioned in that section are diaspora. Do not remove it. Parishan (talk) 07:12, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Dear Parishan. I differ in opinion. The way the template is written suggests that the Azeris are mainly concentrated in the Azerbaijan Republic. While as I said only one third live there. More than the half are Iranians though. --Babakexorramdin (talk) 11:43, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
The person with ip-address was me, somehow I got logged out, sorry. Anyway the fact is Azeris in Iran are represented as Iranians. The template is not trying to mislead the world by saying majority of Azeris live in the republic that would be nonesense. However the fact remains that Azeris from the republic do represent the nation of Azeris more then Iranian Azeris. If you are honest I am sure you understand this. As you can see in the template Azeris living in the given countries are not diaspora (like Parishan mentioned), these are the native lands of Azeri people. Since there is no need for sufficient change anymore I think we have little to discuss here, unless we should combine Republic and Iranian Azeris into this template. Baku87 (talk) 20:09, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

>>> here is exactly where we disagree. Azeris in the republic of Azerbaijan do not represent Azeris more than the Iranian Azeris do. Most famous Azeris are those from Iran--Babakexorramdin (talk) 23:04, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Pardon for interrupt! As I see , the debate is about including the Iranian Azeris in a manner that signifies their major role in Azeri ethnic topics , also does not separate them from Iranian topics which is impossible . I suggest to add a sentence to this template that says every similar article from Iranian topics is also important (or simply adding in see also section ). Can we gather any information about Architecture,Art,Cuisine,Dance and other cultural entities from Azerbaijan Republic , without knowledge about Iranian culture ? and vice versa , without considering the Azeris ,is it possible to think or talk about any thing Iranian? --Alborz Fallah (talk) 18:43, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Yes either a link to Iranian ones as well as those in the Azerbaijan republic and we can agree that it is about Azeris as a people, OR about the Azerbaijan republic as a country. There is something else however and that is more and more the offical politics in rep. Azerbaijan uses the word Azerbaijani and dimiss the word Azeri, while the word Azeri as an ethnic name is widely in use in Iran. This means that the official policy in the republic of Azerbaijan tends to be a territorial one more and more. In this light it is better to make the title of this temple "Republic of Azerbaijan". --Babakexorramdin (talk) 22:13, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Azeris or Azerbaijanis.. I dont see any real difference and neither does any other Azeri. I do agree that the correct and historical term is Azerbaijani and not Azeri. But why debate something so minor both terms are fine, I only say Azeri cuz its short (also most people cant seem to correctly spell Azerbaijani). What I find controversial is what term to use for Azeris from Azerbaijan and Iran. Is it "Iranian Azeri" and "Republic Azeri" or "South Azeri" and "North Azeri", personally I find the last one easier and more comfortable but I can understand that this would cause nervousness among Iranians in general. So we are stuck at this point. For now citizens from the state of Azerbaijan are refered as Azeris and citizens of Iran are known as Iranians. But including Iranian articles is not the answer, historical Azeri lands include Iran, Azerbaijan, Russia, Georgia and Armenia aswell. If we start including Georgia, Russia and Armenia aswell then this template will cause to much confusion and misguidance, also we will receive complaints from our fellow Armenian wikipedians. Please understand Im not trying to be anti-Iranian or anti-Azeri, I am Iranian-Azeri myself but in order to make progress we must be objective and realistic. Lets merge relevant Iranian articles into the already excisting Azeri articles first. Baku87 (talk) 01:17, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

dear baku87, you re not Iranian Azeri. You wrote in your page about black januar etc... its not really important where are you from, all people from republic of Azerbaijan, what ethnic background are the same to me as Iranians. No hard feelings at all. I am not discussing about Azeri or Azerbaijani, I only said what your president wants you to use. But about Azeris in other countries: Armenians might disagree but it is only fair to mention that there lived a large Azeri population in Armenia before. There are some in Georgia, in Russia and not to forget in Turkey. Turkey denies their existence and tries to assimilate them. In Georgia they keep low profile. In Russia only in Darband, they are native, the rest are diaspora. The country in which Azeris take prominent position, and the country to which Azeri culture and history is dependent is Iran. More than the half of Azeris are from Iran. Then comes the rep. Azerbaijan. You are right that the terms such as south or north Azeris creates anger among Iranians, because historic Azerbaijan lies in Iran, but as I said people of what is today called the republic of Azerbaijan are culturally very similar to other people in Iran. To Azeris in Iran but also to Fars, Gilak, Kurd, Talysh, Lor, Qashqai etc...--Babakexorramdin (talk) 02:13, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Well if you must know, I was born in Baku in Azerbaijan SSR and my dad is from Iran, so think of me whatever you like. I understand you consider Azeri ethnicy to be part of Iranian family and in that context I disagree, I think its a mix of multiple backgrounds but mainly Caucausian. Anyway I agree with what you have said, native Azeri lands are around those areas. But we cant just ignore the native Azeri lands in Georgia, Armenia and Derbend? Although the Azeri presence in Armenia has been removed, there are still 100k Azeris in Derbend and more then 300k in Georgia. Therefore I suggest not to add any attentional articles but rather focus on the excisting. Lets first add the relevant information to the given articles and then think about the names. Baku87 (talk) 17:01, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
Well nice to hear that your dad is Iranian. Many people from rep. Azerbaijan have roots from Iran. They are children of people who went there in the early 20th century to work in oil industry. Later many Tudei people (Iranian communists who loved USSR) went there. I also think that Azeri ethnicity like any other has many componenets, but Ok I think the Iranian componenet dominates. In the rep. of Azerbaijan indeed the Caucasian componenet is stronger than elsewhere but still. So if you want this approach, let's add links to the Iranian articles, and then we can decide if we find something relevant in which the role of Azeris is significant in Armenia, Georgia, Turkey and Russia. But it is obvious that the Azeri element is strong in Iran. As Alborz, or Azeri friend said, Iran is not imaginable without Azeris.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 08:22, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Although the Armenian and Georgian cultures has many common figures with the culture of Azerbaijan , but simply that is far from the unity that exist with Iranian culture .That may sounds strange , but as an ethnic Azeri , I can't find a single cultural Azeri item that is not connected to Iran !! Again I advocate to use a link in this template to corresponding topics in Iranian template . That gives the reader more information , and also it is important to show that Iranian culture is a combination of all of it's ethnic groups . --Alborz Fallah (talk) 12:56, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
Indeed Azeri culture is an integral part of the Iranian culture. But Armenian for example is not. Though similar but still it is developed in a particularistic way. Because they are Christians, they do not want to be associated with their Muslim neighbors and they do their best. But Azeri, as well as Luri, Fars, Mazandarani, Gilaki, Qahqai etc... are integral parts of the Iranian culture.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 00:28, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
As an example , I mention the famous Azarbaijani musician , Safi al-Din Urmawi. He is an iconic figure in Iranian music , but in this template there is only pointing to the Azeri music of Azerbaijan republic and in none of template's articles we can't find about him . Where is any information about this musician ? If we are going to include only "ethnic music" , that is by itself rather unknown in Iran at [least in Iran], then where is the share of Iranian Azeris in music of Iran? --Alborz Fallah (talk) 21:39, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Ok I propose to add the Iranian categories now to the template.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 12:44, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

To Parishan[edit]

in answer to your accusation that I had deleted all non-republic of Azerbaijan links and I complain why it is all about rep. Azerbaijan. I try to assume good faith but I have a felling that you try to insult one's intelligence here. What I said was that it is unacceptable that all links about sports, cuisine, politics etc... are only linked to the republic of Azerbaijan while that country only is honme to 1/3 of all Azeris worldwide. I complained that there is no links to the respective categories of iran, while more than the half of Azeris worldwide live in Iran. What I think is that you guyz are trying to say that Azeris outside republic of Azerbaijan are diaspora of republic of Azerbaijan, which is a rediculous claim. What I suggested was to inclde the corresponding articles of Iran nect to those of republic of Azerbaijan. I think it is fair. At least I do not see why a neytral editor from republic of Azerbaijan should object this proposal.--Babakexorramdin (talk) 22:31, 24 November 2008 (UTC)