Template talk:Cipher Bureau

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Qualify with dates for the personnel[edit]

Just a thought: organisations are rarely static. We might need to qualify the periods of office for the various chiefs and deputy chiefs noted here. From my knowledge of it's British counterpart GC&CS, people were frequently promoted or moved about from department to department etc. — Matt Crypto 15:22, 30 September 2005 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Langer, Ciężki, Palluth and the three mathematicians were all with the Cipher Bureau and its wartime successor organisation, in the same jobs, for the 10 years, 1932-1942. In the case of the first three men, I don't know their beginning years.
The situation is harder with the Russian-cryptology section. Perhaps no Russian-section Rejewski survived the war to record his experiences.
For each of the two language sections, I've seen half a dozen other names listed, but with no information about their functions or periods of employment, so I left them out of Listowy's Template:Cipher Bureau.
Maybe someone will come up with more details. logologist 00:31, 1 October 2005 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Is there a chance to make this template a tad shorter and more compact? So far it occupies a lot of space yet is overcrowded with info and hardly informative. Perhaps we could list all the names and devices in two sections and distinguish them by some abbreviation or something? Halibutt 19:14, 23 October 2005 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Check my talk site. Post date: 20:19, 1 October 2005 (UTC). You will find there my proposition. Listowy 12:44, 27 October 2005 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I rather thought of keeping all the info in one table, but making it much smaller by compression of information and by cutting out all the dates, which are not as crucial in a navbox.
Cipher Bureau edit
Section 1Section 2Section 3Section 4
Gustave BertrandMaksymilian CiężkiJan GralińskiJan KowalewskiGwido LangerStefan MayerWiktor MichałowskiAntoni PalluthFranciszek PokornyMarian RejewskiJerzy RóżyckiPiotr SmoleńskiHenryk Zygalski
Lacida (rotor cipher machine)Rejewski's Enigma "doubles"GrillRóżycki's ClockRejewski's CyclometerCard catalogRejewski's Cryptologic bombZygalski's (perforated) sheets
What do you think? Matt? Halibutt 12:04, 30 October 2005 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think your version is much better as a navigation box. It occurred to me that the current version, which is more of an organizational chart / infobox, would be good on Biuro Szyfrów, but that this smaller box would be better on the various associated topics. — Matt Crypto 13:45, 30 October 2005 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks, I'm replacing it then. Take note that I added some names to the list, most notably Bertrand, Kowalewski and some other early-times guys. BTW, I'm currently writing an article on Kowalewski, as he was one of the most fascinating personalities behind the scene of CB.. Halibutt 14:59, 30 October 2005 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Gustave Bertrand was a French military intelligence officer, never one of the Polish Cipher Bureau's personnel, therefore he should not be listed as such. logologist 19:51, 30 October 2005 (UTC)Reply[reply]
In that case it would be good idea to create two version of this template. One smaller for associated topics and one bigger, with detail information-like the previous one, for BS main article. Here you will find old/detail version. Listowy 10:32, 31 October 2005 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yet, Bertrand was crucial in Polish early efforts of breaking the Enigma and was one of the most frequent outside collaborators of the Cipher Bureau. However, if you think his name does not belong here - so be it.
Also, I added the names of the guys who helped to break the WWI-time ciphers. Their role is briefly mentioned in the article on Kowalewski I wrote yesterday, but not in their articles themselves. Nevertheless, they were crucial in the early days of CB.
As to two templates - perhaps it is a nice idea. On the other hand we should fill in the blanks in the older version as it lists only some of the commanders and still has lots of free spaces. Halibutt 11:35, 31 October 2005 (UTC)Reply[reply]
What are the sources on Jan Kowalewski and on the participation here of some of the cream of the Polish School of Mathematics: Stanisław Leśniewski, Stefan Mazurkiewicz, Wacław Sierpiński? logologist 15:41, 31 October 2005 (UTC)Reply[reply]
There was quite a fuzz on the joint Polish-British commission lately (the one to investigate the Polish WWII intelligence and the British archives) and several newspapers provided quite a detailed biography of that guy. Also, there was a fascinating conference on Kowalewski's WWI and WWII work, as well as a nice overview here. Halibutt 12:47, 2 November 2005 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Stefan Mayer was not a Cipher Bureau employee. He was prewar chief of Section II's Intelligence department. He should not be listed among the Cipher Bureau's "personnel," any more than one would list there Marshal Edward Rydz-Śmigły. logologist 11:05, 2 November 2005 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Yup, that's right. I listed him here on the same basis as the French guy, as he was the guy behind all the diplomatic meetings with the French and British, as well as the direct supervisor of the entire Bureau. Feel free to cut him out if you feel that this template should list only the people on CB's payroll rather than all people involved in its works. Halibutt 12:37, 2 November 2005 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Is there an article devoted to the Polish General Staff? That might be the place for Col. Stefan Mayer.
It's a dilemma: If we were to include here everyone who contributed to the Cipher Bureau's work, we might need to consider Hans-Thilo Schmidt too. logologist 15:40, 2 November 2005 (UTC)Reply[reply]


Inasmuch as the "Cadix" intelligence center in Vichy France operated for over two years — three times as long as "PC Bruno," before it — it seemed to deserve at least a stub of its own. And so I've set one up, including a bit of new information.

It would be well to add "Cadix" to the list of Cipher Bureau operating sites in Template:Cipher Bureau. logologist|Talk 05:27, 5 April 2006 (UTC)Reply[reply]