Template talk:Comarques of Catalonia
Vandalism by User:Toniher
User:Toniher is constantly reverting my contributions and accusing me of Vandalism... Maybe this morning the south of France and part of Aragonhas suddenly become part of Catalonia and I'm unaware of that fact. Meanwhile THEY ARE NOT PART OF CATALONIA and this template should say it so. Nobody is going to include in a template with the "comarques of Catalonia" french or aragonese territory.
You still haven't prove yourself adding official documents from France and Aragon confirming these territories to be part of Catalonia in present day.
I will not... I repeat, I will not tolerate this pro-catalan acting towards my home countries!!!
This said, I would like to kindly ask all the contributors which feel the "urgent need" to fool and fill the Wikipedia world with Pan-Catalanism, Catalan Countries wannabe, Catalan nationalism and just plain false pseudo-Catalan History to restraint themselves from doing it. Not all the surrounding lands to Catalonia feel the need to become part of it, and the english Wikipedia will not become a highway to "export" their history "a la carte". Giving for right the fact that we should not generalize, I often wonders if these people suffer from the well-known "Catalan Small Penis Syndrome" (Are we allowed to say "penis"?)
WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A PRO-CATALAN POLITICAL PAMPHLET Maurice27 00:33, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Maurice27, Toniher, a difference of opinion as to what this template should include is not vandalism. I have protected the template for one week to stop the repeated reversions of edits which has been going on. A Request for Comment has been opened below to sollicite opinions from other members of the Wikipedia community, and you are both more than welcome to add your points of view, but please do so in a constructive manner which respects the opinions of others. You might also like to read the page Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Physchim62 (talk) 13:21, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Request for Comment
- This RFC has been cross-posted to WP:RFC/HIST, WP:RFC/POLITICS, WikiProject Spain and WikiProject France. 13:09, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
- Just because I believe Wikipedia to honor History, Justice and Thruth, these so-called "historic comarques of Catalonia" and "La Franja Comarques" should be erased from this template.
- 1.- "Historical Comarques of Northern Catalonia": Northern Catalonia has never existed. It is term used by catalan nationalists and, may I say, even imperialists to described the lands ceded by the Crown of Aragon to the Kingdom of France by the Treaty of the Pyrenees in 1659, being french since then. Prior to that, they were inherited by the Kings of Aragon after the disgregation of the Hispanic Marches. Therefor it is absolutly FALSE for those lands to have been at any time part of Catalonia (Name first used centuries after). In addition to that, I can't believe Wikipedia to allow the use of a non-official name in the content of the articles, being "Rousillon" the Official French and English name (and this happens to be the english Wikipedia), the catalan "Rosselló" is the one to be appearing in this template. Why? maybe it is because there is a community of catalan-speaking habitants. Well, in London demographics, 12,05% of the population is Indian, and I don't see anywhere the obligation to write the translation of London in Indi language. That is something that is happening in the Roussillon and Cerdagne wikipages, where the offical names in english are substituted by the catalans "Roselló" and "Cerdanya", making the search more difficult for wikipedians. Will people from Gibraltar let spaniards describe the Rock as spanish territory? NO... then why let catalans describe the Rousillon and Cerdagne (among others, see [Catalan Countries]])as catalan comarques? I even think it is a complete lack of diplomacy and good taste to allow these people claim to sovereingty over FRENCH TERRITORY.
- 2.- "La Franja Comarques": are 4 ¡¡¡FOUNDING!!! comarques in Aragon, since the midlles ages, which have never been part of Catalonia what so ever. In this case it is even worst, because the "Historical" fact is avoided, giving the idea to wikipedians that the Franja is actually part of present-day Catalonia.
- Having proved myself each and every time, and with a complete lack of explanation on their part, (I invite whoever wants to search in the whole wikipedia ANY explanation on their part for the reason to include these two territories as part of Catalonia), I can not understand how this people are allowed to contribute in this project WITHOUT BEING BANNED. Each and everytime, I am accused of vandalism and anti-catalanism. My contributions are edited without reasons, just because their "version" is the correct one. In my country that is called Fascism, and these people are practicing Censure in all the wikipages they occur to visit.
- Not a single time, these people have contributed by contrasted facts to explain their edits, while I am doing each and every time.
- It is for this reason, that, in this particular case, I demand to keep this template protected EXCLUDINGthese two territories, both french and aragonese, untill decided which version should be used. In addition I ask moderators to take a look at other pages where these people are poisoning the truth and history with complete pro-catalan biased versions:
See (just as examples):
Fenolheda, where the Official name is Fenouillèdes, redirected to the catalan name. I am accused of anti-catalanism for using the official. Capcir, where it is mentioned to be an "historical Catalan comarca of Northern Catalonia" (both of which do not exist) even before as French territory. I am accused of anti-catalanism for reverting that. Vallespir Same us previous one French Cerdagne The addition of a political map of France locating this territory was the reason for User:Toniher to accuse me of anti-catalanism and reverting my edit. Northern Catalonia all the names in that page are in catalan, while NONE of these are official, and are not the english ones to be used in the english wikipedia. I was accused of anti-catalanism and my edits were reverted.
WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A PRO-CATALAN POLITICAL PAMPHLET Maurice27 15:37, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Comment as requested
Dear Maurice27, let me try to explain you my opinion about that question.
First at all, I would like to emphasize that the discussion about the term "Catalonia" should just be a dicussion about the HISTORICAL term. I don't understand your continued relation to politics or Catalan nationalism, just for talking about the content of the term "Catalonia". Please stop doing it, it has no sense.
Use of the term Catalonia. The term was non-officially used from, at least, XIV century (please read Principality of Catalonia article) refered to the territories of the County of Barcelona (part of the Kingdom of Aragon, then). OF COURSE, it has always included the current French Department of Eastern Pyrenees (Northern Catalonia) and some territories currently in the Spanish Autonomous Community of Aragon ("La Franja").
Extension of the term Catalonia. When somebody talks about Catalonia, I understand (like many both Catalan and non-Catalan people) its refered to the historical territory of Catalonia, not just the Catalan historical territories in Spain or in France. That's the same question of talking about Kurdistan (Turkey? Iraq? etc?), about Korea (Southern? Northern?) or about Ireland (Republic? UK?): their historical territories are spread in more than one current state. You can just properly think in the respective historical territories if you just use the historical word. If you want to talk properly about just the Spanish Autonomus Community of Catalonia you should call it like this.
Your example of Gibraltar and Spain. Spain is currently a state. So the term Spain clearly refers to the current territories that belong to the current Kingdom of Spain. So the term does not currently include Gibraltar, of course. Catalonia is not currently a state. So, in the same sense as in your comparison, it includes NO territories. So we can just talk about "Catalonia" as a historical region, or SPECIFICALLY about some of its historical territories, currently regions of Spain and France (Spanish Autonomous Community of Catalonia, French Department of Eastern Pyrenees or La Franja "comarques" in Spanish Autonomous Community of Aragon).
Use of Catalan names. A template related to Catalonia, of course CAN include the Catalan terms. I think there's no point when they are the official appellation, and I think they CAN be perfectly used in the appellation of the HISTORICAL "comarques" of Northern Catalonia. Nobody discusses that currently the official names of that territories are the French ones. You can read it by entering in any one of that articles. Catalan names are currently used between Catalan people (both French and Spanish), they are besides French names in many villages of Northern Catalonia, and remeber they have been official appellations in past times, although they are not now. The elimination of Wikipedia of those non-official appellations should be so stupid like eliminating "Bizantium", "Königsberg" or "Stalingrad". Everybody can use them in a historical sense, although they are not currently official appellations. Your example of Indi appellation of London is, of course, just another question...
Please let me know what do you think about it.
Eddl 19:57, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Eddl, thanks for, at least trying to explain the edits, but you are completely missing the point:
- Use of the term Catalonia:This template has as title "Comarques of Catalonia" not "comarques of the principality of Catalonia", nor "historical comarques of Catalonia".
- Extension of the term Catalonia: When somebody talks about Catalonia, now, as FEB, 9 2007, it refers to Catalonia, the Spanish Autonomus Community (as the link proves), nothing else. If not, it refers to Principality of Catalonia as historical territory of Catalonia, not Catalonia.
- Example of Gibraltar and Spain: Yes, we can just talk about "Catalonia" as a historical region, but it should be refered just like that Catalonia (historical region), or SPECIFICALLY about some of its historical territories, making EXPLICIT that they are currently regions of Spain and France (Spanish Autonomous Community of Catalonia, French Department of Eastern Pyrenees or La Franja "comarques" in Spanish Autonomous Community of Aragon). This is not done in this template. Regions in France are called "Historical Comarques of Northern Catalonia". Regions in Aragon are called "La Franja Comarques" Nothing more. A list called "La Franja Comarques" inside a template called "Comarques of Catalonia" is just FALSE! That's my point!. Call that list "La Franja Comarques in Spanish Autonomous Community of Aragon" for example, not forgetting to change the name of the template to Historical comarques of Catalonia.
- Use of Catalan names: Yes, a template related to Catalonia, of course CAN include the Catalan terms... In [Vikipedia], not in the english one, because this leads english-speaking wikipedians to be mistaken. I could even accept to include the names in Catalan, IF the links redirected to english names (ie. Rosselló redirected to Roussillon). But it does not. (i.e. All the article of Roussillon is in the catalan Rosselló name). And this, again, leads english-speaking wikipedians to be mistaken.
Nobody denies that Catalan names are currently used between Catalan people (both French and Spanish), but that is about a 6% of spanish population and a negligeable (??0,001%??) of french population. It becomes a complete 0% when we talk about english-speaking population, and let's not forget this is the english Wikipedia, Nor the catalan, nor the french, nor the spanish. In english Wikipedia, if people search for Chishima Islands (the japanese name) it redirects to the correct english name of Kuril Islands. Then why if someone searchs for Roussillon he is redirected to the non-correct english name of "Rosselló"?
Regards, Maurice27 22:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
- Dear Maurice27, as anyone can check in different history pages you have been modifying, you have been denying Catalan language in Northern Catalonia, stating it is Occitan instead of Catalan, which is hilarously untrue. As I can read here, I applaud you seem to be correcting this idea. About the names in any language, I also think that English names should be preferred when there is one in common usage, if not, native name should be used. About Rosselló, please see my explanation in the talk page. Toniher 12:26, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Eddl 10:19, 26 February 2007 (UTC)== Proposal ==
After reading your opinions, I think the addition of just one line in the template could clarify possible ambiguous senses:
Existing title: Comarques of Catalonia New line: Comarques of Autonoumous Community of Catalonia (including all comarques in the Autonomous Community) Existing line: Historical Comarques of Northern Catalonia (anyone interested in knowing what Northern Catalonia means and its status can follow the link) Existing line: La Franja Comarques (anyone interested in knowing what La Franja means and its status can follow the link)
- Anyone who read it could clearly realise the word Catalonia is used in the title in the historial sense, as the Autonomous Community appears as 1 of 3 current divisons of those territories.
- About Catalan appellations in Northern Catalonia comarques, I think we all agree that can be used in a template like this. The discussion should just be about the linked articles of that appellations (Rosselló/Roussillon, etc), but I think we all agree the current template appellations are right.
- The term "historical" can just be used in Northern Catalonia comarques, as the ones in A.C. of Catalonia and Aragon are currently used as administrative divisions.
- There's no need to include in templates' titles if one territory currently belongs to Spain, to France or to Australia. Anyone interested can read the three linked articles. All of them are absolutely correct explaining the three different current status.
Please let me know your opinions about this proposal.
Eddl 18:21, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Eddl, the "New line: Comarques of Autonoumous Community of Catalonia (including all comarques in the Autonomous Community)" to make a third division is just a MUST. I concur to your proposal.
- Your words: "Anyone who read it could clearly realise the word Catalonia is used in the title in the historial sense". This is not true, as this template is included in pages like, Catalonia, Languedoc-Roussillon and others. Pages which in no way are limited to historic facts. This leads someone reading the Catalonia page to believe that "la franja comarques" are part of Catalonia.
- The problem starts now. I Do not agree that the Northern Catalonia or La Franja comarques should be used here. They are not part of present day Catalonia, and never have been. They are part of France and Aragon. Prior to that to the [Crown of Aragon]] (the only de facto, not even De jure independent county was de County of barcelona from 1035 to 1131 and none of these comarques were part of this county). Prior to that to different visigoth counts inside the Marca Hispanica, whom were vassals to the french King. Prior to that to Al-Andalus and prior to that to Rome (avoiding greeks and iberians). So this mean that since the Marca Hispanica was created by Charlemagne in 795 to present day, these comarques were never part of Catalonia. Catalonia, as such, did not even exist in those years. The principality of Catalonia, which many people refer to explain the claim over these comarques has not and never had an official status, and let's not forget that the PRINCEPS of this Principality was none other than the King of Aragon.
- Only the Cultural reason could be accepted for them to remain in this template. But the title should be changed "Cultural comarques of the Principality of Catalonia". So, without any Political and Historical proven explanation there is not any REAL reason to claim this comarques as "historical from Catalonia" (which did not even exist as such then).
- What would the portuguese think if "Castilian nationalists" claimed Portugal as "historical comarques of the Crown of Castile&Leon", or the americans if the 13 original colonies of USA were claimed by the UK as an "historical territory". Spain could claim half the USA and all latin America, including Brasil, as "historical territory". They share same language with Spain, just as the Roussilon does with Catalonia. Then why not? In addition, those territories WERE part of the spanish empire or the british empire, northern catalonia has never been from Cat. In fact, from your point of view, Catalonia is part of the "historical provinces" of Italy, as they were part of the roman empire.
- I hope you see the complete nonsense of this template. It should be completely redone, or those "historical comarques" erased from it.
Regards, Maurice27 19:47, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
- Maurice27, let me defend my proposal:
- My complete words were: Anyone who read it could clearly realise the word Catalonia is used in the title in the historical sense, as the Autonomous Community appears as 1 of 3 current divisons of those territories. I mean anyone who reads it (in any article) can realise the Spanish Autonomous Community is just 1 of 3 divisions of a more extensive title, Catalonia in a historical sense. La Franja and Northern Catalonia comarques would remain clearly outside from the Autonomous Community of Catalonia division. I think there's no place for doubts. And I repeat that anyone who follows the links to "Aut. Com. of Catalonia", "Northern Catalonia" and "La Franja" could read with ABSOLUT CORRECTION its current status into Spain or France.
- I like very much to discuss the content of a template like this with a person like you, who has a very different opinion than me, and I really wish we can approach ideas. But in Wikipedia, I (as many users do) try to leave my private political ideas outside, and just talk about historical, cultural or any general science questions. So I don't like to make political interpretations of the history. I make this reflection concerning your words about the past "existence" of Catalonia. Well I'm sure you know Roussillon, Conflent and Cerdagne former counties belonged to the Count of Barcelona first, and to the King of Aragon (and Count of Barcelona) later. The counties of Urgell, Pallars and Ribagorza also were from Kingdom of Aragon (that included the former County of Barcelona). Some of these former counties were de facto sovereign form the Kingdom of France at least from Xth century. They were de jure sovereign from the King of France from XIIIth century (Corbeil Treaty). In XIIth century, the Count of Barcelona was married to the Princess of Aragon. The County of Barcelona conserved its institutions and, as currently you can see, its language. At the end of XVth century, the King of Aragon (and Count of Barcelona) married to the Queen of Castille (and other territories). In XVIIth century, Spain gave France the former counties of Roussillon, Conflent and part of Cerdagne (Pyrenees Treaty) that, till then, shared institutions with the former County of Barcelona. These institutions were abolished in XVIIIth century and, some of them, not recovered till XXth century. Please tell me if you find some of these historical facts false.
Well, the former territories of the Count of Barcelona that mantain some Catalan culture (the language is the main example) were from, at least, XIVth century called "Catalonia" in a geographical (not political, it's true) sense. This definition excludes on purpose some territories that belonged to the Count of Barcelona, but that currently (and I think not even then) have no Catalan culture. I mean some possessions in Provence. Well, I think these historical facts includes "Department of Eastern Pyrenees" territories to historical Catalonia, and I repeat: I think there's NO POLITICAL reason in that.
- On the other way, thinking about Northern Catalonia comarques (that I think they should be included in any template called "Comarques of Catalonia" as people in French Catalonia are so Catalan as people in Spanish Catalonia) maybe they could be called "traditional" instead of "historical", regarding they have no current political status.
- Please let me know your response.
Eddl 16:55, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
- Dear Eddl, Thanks again for expressing your opinion, something neither Toniher nor Joanot are doing. You can consider yourself on my "respected users list" because of that. ;) But, having exposed your opinion and having exposed mine, I think we are in an impasse. I also love to talk history with other people (specially XIX and XX century instead of middle ages) but I had to exposed some political thoughts to what I think is a complete frontal attack to both french sovereignty and to aragonese territory. You said that Roussillon belonged to the count of Barcelona. I really don't think you may consider a King of Aragon as being before a count than a king... Alfonso II of Aragon (also the count of Barcelona), united Roussillon to his other territories on the death of the last count, Girard II in 1172. This my reason to say that Roussillon never was part of what is called principality of Catalonia (whose ruler was the "princeps", none other than the king of Aragon). You asked me if I find any historical facts false... That's the only one, but I believe it to be the key one and the reason for me to oppose to include those comarques (which should be called Pays (France) as they are in present day France), in the template. As I said before, I think we are in a (most regretable, I do believe it) impasse. :)
- Your idea to call those comarques (or Pays (France)) "traditional" instead of "historical", regarding they have no current political status is MUCH MUCH better, but I rather have them be called "Comarques with Catalan culture", not being very sure that someone living near Carcassonne really shares much similar way of live than someone living in Fraga or the Ebro Delta...
Sincere regards, Maurice27 21:44, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- Dear Maurice27,
- Roussillon belonged to the County of Barcelona before it joined the Kingdom of Aragon (Xth century). Because of familiar links to the "Casal" of Barcelona (middle ages counts of Barcelona), not to Aragonese Kings, it further joined the Kingdom of Aragon (XIIth century). That's why I said it belonged to the Count of Barcelona. But that's not for me the key point: I think the "historical" territory of Catalonia should not be currently though as a political project, or something else (it depends on anyone's political thoughts!). Catalonia is a European region with no modern state, spread between France and Spain. From the "birth" of middle ages Catalan Counties (Barcelona, Roussillon, Cerdagne, Girona, etc, border lands of the King of France) it has almost always been between Spain and France, so I think there's no reason to think in a "sovereignty attack", specially if we remember Catalonia has currently NO state. So we can't think in a state claims over other state's territories, because nor "Spanish Catalonia" or "French Catalonia" are sovereign states.
- Well, let me try to resume this discussion with another proposal:
- Main title:Comarques of Catalonia
- Three divisions: Comarques of Autonoumous Community of Catalonia / Traditional Comarques of Northern Catalonia / La Franja Comarques, all of them linked to the three territories' articles, where the reader can perfectly find its current status into Spain or France.
- Please let me know your opinions.
- Sincere regards, Eddl 16:39, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
- Dear Eddl, I really doubt this is going to take us nowhere as nobody but us cares about expressing their opinions and as soon the template is unblocked, even if we agree in the content, the same people are going to revert it again in complete freedom as I really doubt of the neutrality of some people involved. Anyway... My 3 divisions should be in a template called "Principality of Catalonia", not only "Catalonia":Comarques of Autonoumous Community of Catalonia /Traditional pays (see Pays (France) of Roussillon/Roselló/La Franja of Aragon comarques. (For the record), I still think neither Roussillon nor La franja should be included.
- Let me know what you think also.
- Sincere regards, Maurice27 02:21, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
- Dear Maurice27,
- Excuse me for answering so late, but I was out some days.
- I would prefer having talked about this template with more people, that's true. But I think we have found a good solution, not perfect, but almost good for both. I think we can show that discussion to anyone who changes this template, in order to keep it right.
- Thanks and best regards,Eddl 10:19, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Official external reference.
As external reference, see a map edited by the Conseil Général du Pyrénées-Orientales where the comarcas and the name in Catalan are being used: http://www.cg66.fr/culture/catalanite/carta.pdf. The Conseil Général is the local french government for every Department. I think this no need more additional comments that comarcas are being used as cultural and historical reference of the villages, towns and cities of Northern Catalonia. There's no "Pays du Roussillon" but "le Pays Catalan". --Joanot Martorell ✉ 17:41, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
- That map is in Catalan, not even the title is in english so that's not a proof for the correct use of "Rosselló" in english. Maurice27 21:40, 19 February 2007 (UTC)