Template talk:Final Fantasy series

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Bravely Default/Second Removal[edit]

Bravely Default may have various similarities to certain Final Fantasy games, but it is very specifically NOT a part of the Final Fantasy series. It is considered a spiritual successor to Final Fantasy: The 4 Heroes of Light, but it isn't an actual sequel to it. It doesn't take place in any of the Final Fantasy worlds, nor does it carry the name, nor does it contain the iconic staples of the series. Please don't spread misinformation. Please remove it from the Final Fantasy template.

Thank you. (talk) 12:42, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Its related to it in some form and fashion and as a bonus for Bravely Default: For the Sequel, the game offers Final Fantasy: The 4 Heroes of Light bosses similar ot how Kingdom Hearts has Final Fantasy characters in it as cameos.Lucia Black (talk) 12:55, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
Now that Bravely Default is a series and not just a single game, it should probably be moved to the "Related series" line. UOSSReiska (talk) 04:56, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

What is this template about?[edit]

If the main series section of the template is about the MAIN series it has to contain just I to XV. Djsnake86 (talk) 17:47, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

I agree. If we're going to add follow ups to numbered games, then X-2 and XII Revenant Wings also should be added to the main series. -- ThiagoSimoes (talk) 19:32, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
Direct sequels to a main game should be added, as they're also main games. This means X-2, XIII-2 and Lightning Returns. Revenant Wings would be a spin-off.. -- DarkKyoushu (talk) 12:16, 1 September 2015 (GMT)
I agree with DarkKyoushu above, as well as Jeromesandilanico, who made a suggestion back here that was ahead of its time. Now that there are three direct sequels, it makes no sense to leave them out of the template. Readers should not have to click on a main game like X to find out that there is another main game that was a sequel to it, especially when the template is otherwise thorough in listing every conceivable related game that is not a mainline FF entry. Since adding X-2, XIII-2 and Lightning Returns to the main series listing would lengthen that line considerably, I'm making a callback to Jeromesandilanico's suggestion of a new line in the template, underneath "Main games", called "Direct sequels". Any objections or suggestions, or should I go ahead and try it, and we can look at the results? --Iritscen (talk) 17:29, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
Eh, there are over 130 releases in the series, though a large amount don't have their own articles, so I wouldn't say that the template lists "every conceivable related game". It lists all of the related series, which are sometimes just one game. In any case- having a "sequel" line is complicated. FF4 has The After Years, FF5 has Legend of the Crystals (but it's an ova), FF7 has a whole series of games, which have their own template (do any of them count as sequels, since only the movie is later in time?), FF10 has a sequel (in its own template), FF12 has a sequel (but that sequel is part of a related series which has its own template), FF13 has 2 sequels (do we list them both? Also, they're in their own template), FF14 has a remake and then that remake has expansion packs, FF15 doesn't have a sequel but is part of a series (which is in the FF13 template)...
Basically, it sounds nice in theory to have a "direct sequels" section, but it's actually a muddled mess. There is probably a better way to organize things in the template besides the "external template"/"sections that only pop up when you're on one of their pages" thing we have now, but I don't think a "sequels" section is it. --PresN 20:51, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
I see what you mean. I was thinking about only three sequels for the entire mainline, and forgot about the FF VII prequels (Crisis Core and Before Crisis) and sequel (Dirge of Cerberus) and FF XII's sequel. I think that OVAs could be ignored in the "Main games" listing, but having so many pre/sequels still makes for a challenge in terms of neat presentation. I played around with putting the related games in their own collapsible sub-box, as seen here, but I'm not sure I'm satisfied with the results.
Still, I notice that the rebuild, or whatever you want to call it, of FF XIV, "A Realm Reborn", gets its own link in parentheses after "XIV", which makes the exclusion of the actual independent games X-2 and two XIII sequels even stranger. Maybe the ideal approach would be collapsible areas after each roman numeral, e.g., "IX · X (related) · XI", where clicking the "(related)" after "X" turns into a link called "(X-2)", clicking the "(related)" after "VII" turns into "(Crisis Core, Before Crisis, Dirge of Cerberus)", etc. But it doesn't seem that it's possible to make text expand to the right like that, and replace "(related)", without writing a custom JavaScript for this template. I'd love to know if anyone has any other ideas. --Iritscen (talk) 00:07, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
Hmmm, just playing around with ideas, not sold on it: --PresN 02:39, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

I like that! My only notable concern with it is that not every reader may understand that the column headers are game titles meant to be clicked on. Here's a slight variant on your idea, with full game titles for the column headers so that the eye is more likely to see that each title is a blue link. This required dropping back from eight titles per row to five to allow for smaller monitors. I also made some small corrections to the actual titles listed under each game:
Feel free to go with your version; I'm just tossing this out there for comparison. --Iritscen (talk) 05:12, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

Actually, the template has needed a simplicity overhaul for a while now. Cut the game-specific display-only-parameter stuff. This navbox has never been so big that it actually needed that functionality. I have had a first-cut draft sitting at User:Izno/Sandbox#Final Fantasy for a while now. --Izno (talk) 11:40, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

I think all three of us can agree that the "game-specific display-only-parameter stuff" should ideally be a global part of the template so that you don't need to click on the articles for Final Fantasy IV, VII, X, XII, or XIII and read for a while, or scroll to the navboxes at the bottom, just to find out that there were major follow-ups to these games.
Taking a look at your draft, it seems like your suggestion is to just have a new row for each game. You've even made a row for games with no sequels, in order to link to all articles pertaining to each game. I like the comprehensiveness of that, but you've only done it for some of the games. There may be few related articles for FF I-III, but their absence seems potentially confusing. Yes, they're listed in "Main games", but that row has its own issue: since you already have links to each mainline entry at the start of each row, the "Main games" row adds nothing of value, except that it lists the first three titles.
I wanted to see how tall the navbox would get with rows for each game, so I augmented your navbox draft (I decided to combine I-III into one row to fully replace the "Main games" row, and I made some corrections and updates for the rest of the mainline games):
Maybe it's okay if the table is that tall? The navbox goes at the bottom of the article, after all. Are there other examples of big navboxes out there? I tried looking at some major game series' navboxes, and none were as complex as Final Fantasy's, including Dragon Quest's. Maybe none of them have the number of works that FF does.
Both your version of the navbox and PresN's accomplish the goal of listing each sequel or prequel alongside its original game. At the moment, I think it looks better to have whitespace in the many-row design than it looks in the multi-column design, but what do you guys think? --Iritscen (talk) 15:31, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
What probably happened is that I got sick of trudging through the live template's behavior to ensure I got every link into the sandbox navbox. :^) Usually navboxes aren't that tall, but I've seen ones on that order. I think it's fine not to have every game have a devoted |group=; we only really need that if we have lots of sub-game articles for a particular game. --Izno (talk) 16:03, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, it took a while to collect the additional articles that I listed there, and I still probably missed some (just made a couple fixes, in fact). I think the main question is whether it would look odd or confusing if only some games had their own row. If we don't give a separate row to the games that have no "additional works" at all, we would only have rows for Final Fantasy 4, 5, 7, 10, 12, 13, 14, and 15, which I think might confuse some readers ("Where did 1, 2, 3, 6, 8, 9, and 11 go? Why are just these games here?"), or simply look unappealing.
That's why I like the approach of just listing them all separately (besides the first three, which are from the "pre-story" days and have little to say about them in terms of related articles). There's probably not a perfect way to do this because of the sheer complexity of what we are trying to map, though I'm still very open to anyone else coming in with a clever idea. Otherwise I think it's just a matter of finding what annoys us the least and yet actually lists all the FF games. --Iritscen (talk) 18:09, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
Hmm, not sure I like the multi-row design, as most of the rows are really empty. I tried populating the multi-column a bit more with music, character articles etc. (though I didn't add the individual character articles): --PresN 18:12, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
The columns version has the same issue with lots of whitespace and additionally has the "small screen" problem as well as the "where to put the hangers-on articles" problem. And more games get added means more rows (which are big) get added... it's not viable in the long term. --Izno (talk) 18:36, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
That version of the multi-column looks nicer than your first draft since it makes better use of space with the additional articles (and I like the specific tweaks and fixes that you made to the items listed in the table). Unfortunately it is true that soon we are going to start hearing about XVI and maybe even XVII, which means that we'd probably have to go to four of those big rows.
Additionally, the amount of space taken up by a single popular game like VII causes its whole row to get taller. Even if we left out the individual works in the FF VII Compilation, other rows are likely to get taller, like the row with XV on it, as more works are produced in that "universe". So it seems to me like there is a greater impression of wasted space in the multi-column format, even if the total amount of whitespace isn't actually much greater than in the multi-row one. --Iritscen (talk) 18:57, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
P.S.: I've discovered in the course of editing both of your templates that the multi-row one is much easier to update. The nature of table markup lends itself more readily to simply adding a new row for a new game, whereas reorganizing the multi-column grid to go from, say, five-by-three to four-by-four (once there are 16 titles), then redoing the layout once again for 17 titles, etc., will take more time for future maintainers. --Iritscen (talk) 19:04, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

I think part of the reason the multi-row version seems to have so much empty space is that it fills the screen horizontally. Below is a version of it that makes use of wrapping for some rows. (There are also some little improvements/additions taken from PresN's last table, and I made all prequel/sequel game titles bold so that they stand out more visually and match the bold of the row header game titles.) The goal was to make the table narrower so it appears to waste less visual space. In order to get the table to not take up 100% of the screen width I had to hard-code the width in pixels, which is not a good thing, but maybe someone else can get "width:auto" to work. Does this look better or worse? --Iritscen (talk) 19:47, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

I might be missing something here, but this solution doesn't actually eliminate much whitespace, does it? It just sort of moves the whitespace to the left and right sides of the screen rather than the middle. I also don't think bolding prequels/sequels helps, since "bold" generally means "link to the page you are currently on" in navigational templates, and it's kind of a subjective, in-universe distinction anyway. The way Wikipedia does navboxes has some pretty fundamental problems, but I think the version you posted at 15:31 is probably the best compromise right now. —Flax5 20:45, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
You're correct, I'm only changing the appearance of whitespace, not decreasing it. I was curious whether it would look better if the space inside the box was more fully used, but perhaps the box also looks more cluttered as a result. I'm not experienced in editing navboxes, as you can probably tell :-) Good point on why bold probably doesn't help. Thanks for the input.
Let's see if we're arriving at a consensus. We have one vote for the table at 15:31 so far (though if we used that table, I would apply to it the small fixes to the game listings which were made in my 19:47 table, just not the bold formatting and line-wrapping). --Iritscen (talk) 21:31, 1 November 2016 (UTC)

FFXIV or ARR on main line?[edit]

PresN just added a subgroup for FFXIV. That's cool, I mostly agree, especially because I'm hoping to spin Heavensward into its own article with Dev and Reception sections soon(ish) so the subgroup will be a little less lonely. My question is if we should link to Final Fantasy XIV or Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn in the "Main games" row of the template. I'm actually slightly leaning towards the latter because I think that would better serve the readers for navigation purposes. At 3 years and counting since the end of original FF14 service, links to said article are increasingly not what regular readers are looking for when they look up "Final Fantasy XIV". Thoughts? Axem Titanium (talk) 20:54, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I really think it should be the original. I agree, ARR is certainly much more popular than the original game, but it's still a remake/reboot of that original game. It doesn't make much sense to me to have "FF1, FF2... FF12, FF13, the reboot of FF14, FF15" on the main line, any more than to have Final Fantasy IV (3D remake) instead of the original. And you'd have to specifically link it as something other than "XIV", since that's not actually its name. If readers accidentally go to the original when they meant the remake, there is a hatnote right up at the top.
Though, the thought occurs to me- the section below, the related games section, is just a pile of names. Japan-only GREE mobile games get the same prominence as FF Tactics. Is there a way we can split that up, somehow have a "main spinoffs and remakes" section (with a better name), so as to put ARR and some others in more prominence near the top, since as you say readers are likely to be looking for them? --PresN 21:16, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
I have a somewhat unauthodox suggestion: instead of the main section being linked to the main article, do not add a link. Instead, have the two versions in the template section. Something like: FF XIV (heading, unlinked), XIV (original, linked), XIV: ARR (linked, with suitable subsections for any future articles related to standalone expansions should they arise), Music of XIV. That's not a very clear representation, but I think it might be good enough. On a side-note, Axem Titanium, I would be happy to do some digging for sources regarding Heavensward if you like. Make the job a little easier on you. --ProtoDrake (talk) 21:21, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
I think it's a slightly different use case than FFIV 3D because ARR represents a continuing active service that has wholly eclipsed the original in terms of mindshare/notability/every other metric other than badness, whereas FFIV 3D is a singular rerelease which is definitely less notable than the original. I think the reason we kept "XIV (A Realm Reborn)" for so long in the main series line was being cognizant of that fact. If, in fact, we decide not to keep both links in that line, I would personally list it as "XII XIII XIV: A Realm Reborn XV", rather than simply "XIV". You lose a little parallelism and gain a lot of navigation benefit.
Re:ProtoDrake. Yeah, for sure! I haven't started a compendium of links to sources yet so go crazy. Axem Titanium (talk) 21:38, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh right, context for why I made a subsection in the first place and pulled ARR out of the main line- Wikipedia:Featured topic candidates/Final Fantasy series/archive1, HurricaneHink commented on it in the FFseries FTC and I agreed that it was odd. --PresN 22:24, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I agree that it is odd and unorthodox, but I think it's a net benefit to navigation to only include ARR, if you were forced to pick one. As time goes on, the "original" will only diminish in importance compared to ARR and I think ARR can be considered the "heir to the title of fourteenth main series Final Fantasy game". It potentially threatens the current FTC but I hope to have ARR as a GA soon as well. Axem Titanium (talk) 22:44, 8 December 2015 (UTC)
To be clear, this is what I'm proposing:

Axem Titanium (talk) 09:59, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

I agree with ProtoDrake's suggestion to link both, and would have made the same one myself: Something like ... XIIIXIV (original, A Realm Reborn) ● XV

The "problem" is that unlike, say, original FF1 NES, the "original" FF14 isn't available anymore and has been superseded / replaced by a "new" FF14. It's a unique situation that isn't exactly comparable to spin-offs, expansion packs, and so on; there really are "two" FF14s, confusing as that is. SnowFire (talk) 22:51, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

Yeah that's the rub, isn't it? Unlike any remakes like FFIVDS where the original still exists and is playable, the original FF14 no longer exists at all and can't be played by anyone. The original FF14 was in service for 774 days from its launch on 9/30/2010 to the end of service on 11/11/2012. As of today, ARR has been in service for 861 days since launch on 8/27/2013, so even if ARR ended service today (it's not), it would still have a longer period of active service functioning as "the fourteenth Final Fantasy game" from a historical standpoint than the original. Of course, we could always return to linking both in the main series line like we have for the past three years or so. This proposal assumes our goal is to only link one, with my argued preference for linking ARR. Axem Titanium (talk) 20:04, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
I'm not sure if this helps the discussion or not (it's certainly OR), but I can think of very few instances where when the term "FF14" is used without qualifiers in casual conversation, it isn't referring to ARR or Heavensward. (At least, among the group of friends I have who play the game, the common parlance is to refer to the current game as simply "FF14" or "14", and to use terms like "1.0" when referring to the pre-ARR game, or "2.0" when referring specifically to ARR pre-Heavensward.) Still, the original FF14 is absolutely historically significant as one of the only (if not the only?) extant example of a released MMO which was shut down, substantially redesigned, and relaunched. UOSSReiska (talk) 04:56, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Listing the FF7 Remake under FF7[edit]

Just wondering if the FF7 Remake should be listed under FF7 in the main series, like A Realm Reborn currently is. I ask instead of doing this myself because FF7 is not the only game in the main series with a remake (FF4 had one for the DS, even though it wasn't as drastic), so I'm not sure what the best way to handle this is. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 02:57, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

So, ARR is only in the main series line (and after some debate, including just have FF14 and linking it to ARR) because it not only remade the game, it replaced it- you can't play the original FF14 anymore, and ARR is more popular by far than the original. When you say "Final Fantasy XIV", there's a very good chance that you actually mean the current incarnation of FFXIV (ARR), not the original. The same is not true of FF7R - you can buy and play the original FF7 today, doubly so on Steam, and the remake isn't likely to replace the original as the "definitive version" of FF7. If that changes, sure, but right now its just a remake. --PresN 03:27, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
Yeah, that's what I thought originally. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 04:57, 30 January 2016 (UTC)