Template talk:Franchises owned by Sega Sammy Holdings

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What is the reason of removing Joe Montana Football, Sega Bass Fishing, Sega Rally, Sega Worldwide Soccer, ToeJam & Earl, Virtua Cop, Virtua Striker and Virtua Tennis from the template? --Mika1h (talk) 15:10, 24 June 2010 (UTC)


With the acquisition of Atlus by Sega, I believe that we should make organizers for this template (which should really be named "Sega-Sammy Franchises") to reflect its different brands, such as Atlus and Sega, with sub-franchises (Megami Tensei and Sonic franchises in particular) under franchise organizers. Nuke (talk) 04:11, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Should all of them really be added? If Atlus ceased releasing a franchise 10 years ago and never release it under Sega, is it really a "Sega Franchise", for example? Should it only be ones released by Sega? Sergecross73 msg me 23:35, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
Maybe not all of them, but the most popular brands--Megami Tensei, Persona, Etrian Odyssey, and Trauma Center--probably should be added. What matters is that Sega owns the IP, even if it has been inactive for awhile or used to be owned by another company--right? After all, we don't list Visual Concepts' sports games, even though they were originally owned by Sega. Is there any reason not to list Company of Heroes, given that Sega published the most recent entry? Are Bayonetta or Condemned any less franchises than Vectorman or Jet Set Radio?TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 23:27, 16 October 2013 (UTC)
Well, Boyonetta, yes, as they only did one under Sega. But otherwise, I get your point. Maybe "Atlus" should be a separate, second subsection? I'd prefer that, so at least it's labeled as such ... Sergecross73 msg me 01:24, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
Sega still owns the rights to Bayonetta and is overseeing the new game. My only question is, are two games enough to make a franchise?TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 02:00, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
I asked the same thing when cleaning up the franchise template for Nintendo. No one was able to give me an a sweet more detailed than "more than 1 game", so that's what I go by. Sergecross73 msg me 01:40, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
In that case, I see no reason not to re-add some of the franchises that were recently deleted.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 17:26, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, I'm fine with that. If I removed any earlier, it was merely to get to the last stable version. I'm still a little iffy on Bayonetta, with them not really developing or publishing the second one, but I won't fight that one if I'm alone on it. I'm okay with adding Atlus ones as long as their in a separate section, not mixed in with the Sega ones... Sergecross73 msg me 18:03, 18 October 2013 (UTC)
I've added more Sega franchises to the list, but have not added any Atlus franchises yet. Some of them--like Ecco the Dolphin--just seemed like shocking omissions in light of the more obscure and Japan-exclusive arcade titles that are listed. (Tell me, does Skies of Arcadia qualify as a franchise? Skies of Arcadia: Legends wasn't exactly a full-fledged sequel, but the game is referenced in the Sega Superstars series, and the case seems relatively ambiguous.) NuclearWizard, above, suggested renaming the template "Sega-Sammy franchises" and listing Atlus and Sega as separate brands. It occurs to me that Sammy, too, would be a separate brand (best known for the Guilty Gear games).TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 01:31, 19 October 2013 (UTC)
Since there were no objections, I've divided the three brands and moved the page to "Sega-Sammy franchises".TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 02:24, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
I support and like what you've done. (And yes, Skies of Arcadia should not be on there. It should at least be 2 separate games. Legends is just a slightly expanded port of the DC game, and a mini-game in a collection shouldn't be enough either.) Sergecross73 msg me 03:13, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Edit warring on inclusion[edit]

I've protected the page due to the excessive edit warring. Discuss reasons for or against inclusion, and ones that have consensus will be added. Sergecross73 msg me 23:37, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Is Landstalker really a Sega franchise?[edit]

Landstalker: The Treasures of King Nole is supposedly the first of a trilogy that also includes Lady Stalker: Challenge from the Past and Time Stalkers. Sega probably does own the rights to Landstalker, seeing as they published the game, but Lady Stalker is a Super Famicom game Sega had absolutely nothing to do with, which makes me doubt that Sega owns the rights to this "franchise" as a whole.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 02:42, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

I agree, it shouldn't be on there, but again, if working on the Nintendo franchise template is any indication, there may be plenty of passer-by IPs trying to re-add it... Sergecross73 msg me 03:11, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

Olympic games[edit]

Do Sega's official Olympics video games--Beijing 2008, Vancouver 2010, and London 2012--qualify as a franchise?TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 05:06, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

I believe they do. If anyone disagrees, explain why here.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 08:21, 20 October 2013 (UTC)
I think so too. The develop them, and its one of their best selling series these days too... Sergecross73 msg me 13:53, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
Would it be better to list/link to Mario and Sonic? That generic article about Olympic video games is not only terrible, but is about all Olympic based video games, not just Sega made ones... Sergecross73 msg me 15:48, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps. I wasn't really too sure what to link to. I chose the generic article because it mentioned the official games and the Mario & Sonic titles.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 01:18, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Guilty Gear[edit]

User: The Stick Man recently claimed in an edit summary that the Guilty Gear franchise is the sole property of developer Arc System Works and that Sammy has nothing to do with it outside of publishing a single Guilty Gear pachinko machine. While that is sheer nonsense, as Sammy has published Guilty Gear for many years, it does appear that Arc System Works bought back the rights to Guilty Gear in mid-2011.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 02:43, 21 October 2013 (UTC)

Guilty Gear is still being published by Sega-Sammy, however. The latest release runs on Sega's RingEdge 2.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 02:51, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
I did not claim that Sammy had absolutely nothing to do GG, I simply said that it was not a Sammy franchise.
However, upon taking a second look, if games published by a company are considered that company's franchise, then sure, revert my edits. I'll also admit my mistake of having assumed that Sammy was involved in only a pachinko machine. TheStickMan[✆Talk] 03:14, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
Don't feel too bad, I thought they only did pachinko at first too... Sergecross73 msg me 13:53, 21 October 2013 (UTC)


After Burner has more than one full-fledged sequel: If After Burner 2 is more like After Burner 2.0, there are also sequels like After Burner Climax and After Burner: Black Falcon. The same is true of Space Harrier--Planet Harriers, at least, is a significantly different game. But what about something like Galaxy Force? Galaxy Force II is essentially a slightly improved version of the original. For the same reason Chu Chu Rocket!, Samba de Amigo, and Skies of Arcadia are not franchises, I don't believe Galaxy Force qualifies. Nevertheless, I want to make sure that this reasoning is not simply original research on my part. (Galaxy Force is hardly the only arcade game this applies to; it would be interesting to know if this is also true of F355 Challenge 2, as I suspect it is.)

In addition, I plan to remove Otogi from the list. Sega-Sammy doesn't own it and didn't develop it; they only published it in some regions.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 02:11, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Ownership, and why I think I made a mistake[edit]

Even though I'm the one who divided the template into Sega, Sammy, and Atlus; upon reflection, I feel this may have been a mistake. Why shouldn't all new IPs since the merger (Bayonetta, Valkyria Chronicles, Yakuza) be listed as "Sega Sammy franchises" instead of being listed solely under Sega? If Atlus creates a new franchise, should it be listed solely under them? If so, what happens if Relic develops a new property--Should they, too, be treated as a "separate brand"? Sega has published every Football Manager and NHL Eastside Hockey Manager game from the start, but perhaps Sports Interactive should be kept segregated from the rest of their titles on the grounds that they are not an in-house development studio! After a while, it becomes too arbitrary to imagine a stable unprotected version. I prefer the Sony franchises template, which just lists all of the franchises owned by Sony Computer Entertainment--many of which indeed (Lemmings, Shadow of the Beast, Wipeout) were simply bought by Sony--without any arbitrary distinctions. Of course, if we take the same route, then all of the licensed games will have to go (it's not like Sony doesn't have their own series of Bleach videogames). If ownership is our basis for inclusion, Guilty Gear will have to go, as ASW recently bought back the rights. (GG is actually a great example of how arbitrary the current template truly is--Why is it still a "Sammy franchise" even though they no longer own it? Because Sega-Sammy still publishes it? Because the latest GG runs on Sega's RingEdge 2? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever!) I would personally favor something like this "Franchises owned by Sega Sammy Holdings". (Additional note: Since it's "Sega Sammy Holdings," I should have renamed this template "Sega Sammy franchises"--not "Sega-Sammy franchises".)TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 22:43, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I understand your concerns. The same sorts of concerns arose when I tried cleaning up the Nintendo one. It's hard to know where to draw the line. It's why I stopped working on that one beyond cleaning/keeping the absolute garbage entries on it.
My 2 cents: Let's think it over, and come up with a set of criteria, and just go with it. Judging by how none of the passerby edit warring IPs have even bothered to comment, nor has almost anyone, makes me think that, at least at moment, we're really the only ones who care. We may as formulate our way, and enforce it until/unless it's strongly contested.
I was actually looking over it earlier and thinking we should try to organize be massive mass of Sega entries. Not quite sure what would be easiest/best though. (By genre? Year? Dev team? Something else?) Sergecross73 msg me 00:19, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
Organizing it by dev teams would be a nightmare. Genre would be relatively easy, if you want to go that route.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 00:02, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
Just as long as we don't keep it as the giant mass it is right now.. Sergecross73 msg me 01:46, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
Understood.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 02:07, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

If this was organized by development team, what would it look like?[edit]

This is the best I could come up with, keeping in mind all of Sega's many restructurings:

How to manage this template's initial visibility
To manage this template's visibility when it first appears, add the parameter:

|state=collapsed to show the template in its collapsed state, i.e. hidden apart from its titlebar – e.g. {{Franchises owned by Sega Sammy Holdings |state=collapsed}}
|state=expanded to show the template in its expanded state, i.e. fully visible – e.g. {{Franchises owned by Sega Sammy Holdings |state=expanded}}
|state=autocollapse to show the template in its collapsed state but only if there is another template of the same type on the page – e.g. {{Franchises owned by Sega Sammy Holdings |state=autocollapse}}

Unless set otherwise (see the |state= parameter in the template's code), the template's default state is autocollapse.

I will elaborate on my reasoning shortly, and explain potential problems with this model as well.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 05:18, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Basically, R&D1 is Amusement Vision and Smilebit, R&D2 is Sonic Team and United Game Artists, R&D3 is Overworks, AM Software R&D is everyone else (they focus on arcade games). Note that, unlike the Sega Rossos and Hitmakers of the world, both AM2 and Sonic Team still get to brand their games. Perhaps this isn't going back far enough; why is Alex Kidd listed under Sonic Team? Simple: Sega didn't start out with AM1-8 (Sonic Team being AM8). AM8 was originally a Sega Consumer Development Division led by Shinobu Toyoda, which worked on games like Alex Kidd and Phantasy Star. Other questions may be lingering in your mind: Noriyoshi Ohba was the head of AM7/Overworks, so why isn't his Sangokushi Taisen listed under R&D3 as opposed to AM R&D? Wow Entertainment and Overworks were merged to form Sega Wow in 2003; most of Overworks went to R&D3, but the rest of Sega Wow joined AM2, Hitmaker, and Rosso at AM R&D. AM R&D developed Sangokushi Taisen--unsurprisingly, since it's an arcade game. Why on Earth is Puyo Puyo not first-party, when we all know Sonic Team currently develops it? Well, this is the real crux of the matter: Puyo Puyo was originally made by Compile, an affiliate of Sega, not an in-house developer. For the purposes of this model template, I attribute each franchise to whatever team created it. Sonic Team did not create Puyo Puyo. On the other hand, Sonic Team did create the first Sega Superstars game, although the series has been handled by British developer Sumo Digital ever since.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 06:15, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
Why not list each franchise under the developer that most recently worked on it as opposed to the progenitors? Because then Shinobi would be a Griptonite franchise, House of the Dead would be a Headstrong franchise, and Golden Axe would be a Secret Level franchise.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 06:35, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
Why not just ignore Sega's restructuring and call the development teams whatever we want? Because Wikipedia needs to stay focused on the present, not the past.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 06:42, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
The biggest weakness to this method of organization is that Sega has partnered with many developers who have contributed only a single franchise, resulting in a pile of games marked under "other". Should every single one of those teams be listed? To avoid confusion in cases like Puyo Puyo and Sega Superstars, a seemingly ideal solution would be to list each game under the developer that is "best known" for working on the series (i.e., Sonic Team and Sumo Digital); although this could be hard to verify and/or lead to arbitrary edit wars.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 07:31, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
  • I think this looks great! Far better than what I had envisioned taking it. I say go with this, and address any concerns if/when they pop up. Sergecross73 msg me 12:39, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
Will do.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 21:35, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
It's done. BTW, since Noriyoshi Ohba's "Team Shinobi"/AM7/Overworks didn't design the original Shinobi arcade game, I have moved the franchise accordingly.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 22:05, 25 October 2013 (UTC)
I know I keep tinkering with this template, and I'm sorry if I have appeared indecisive at times, but I think with this edit my OCD has finally been satisfied.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 07:46, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
No problem, they're all well-thought out and with edit summary, so its fine. Sergecross73 msg me 23:21, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Edit request[edit]

Adding Border Break (talk) 08:59, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Can you be more specific? Sergecross73 msg me 17:08, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
I assume he means Border Break: Sega Network Robot Wars.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 19:14, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Was there a sequel?TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 19:15, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
If you know where to put it, please go ahead. Otherwise, we need the requester to be more specific. Closing request meanwhile. --Stfg (talk) 20:02, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
Ohhh, I see. I thought it was a formatting request or something. I didn't recognize that game title... Sergecross73 msg me 20:30, 9 November 2013 (UTC)
I would know where to put it, but it doesn't qualify as a franchise unless there is a sequel, and I am not aware of one.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 20:35, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

It's one of the most profitable of Sega's Arcade games, and get's continuously updated since 2009 till today. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 19:44, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but that still doesn't make it a "franchise" or a "series". The requirement here is that at least 2 games are needed to make it a "franchise". As is, it just a single game, not a series. Sergecross73 msg me 19:46, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Well you have the end word, so will it be. However, it's also added on Sega's Japan milestone website (along with other series on the template). Also "World Club Champion Football", "Love and Berry" are not franchises as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 19:52, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Love and Berry, according to the article, had 2 releases, one in arcades, and one for DS. WCCF seemed to have yearly iterations according to the article. I'm not personally familiar with these two, so I don't know for certain, but going off the articles, it looks like they'd qualify... Sergecross73 msg me 20:14, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

@Sergecross73: My reasoning for rehauling the template: Atlus is now under Sega completly and not Sega Sammy, so the Sega Sammy franchises name is redundant. Also the grouping of three console, one arcade studio, other, Platinum Games, Treasure doesn't make much sense. I get that that the latter are fan favourites, but that is still subjective, giving them space over other companies. The "other" section is also confusing as it includes Sega Japan developed titles - like Miku or Fantasy Zone which are hard to categorize in dev teams. Which brings to my last point - it is better to group the franchises simply under one Sega of Japan group, as it is still unknown which exact division is behind a title that Sega of Japan makes.

I'm more okay with your second version, I just wasn't happy with the first one, as I said in the edit summary, I don't think "Arcade" was a good section considering how many of their Arcade series had games for both home consoles and arcades (like Daytona or Crazy Taxi). I'm okay with your section, though I'm not sure if its an improvement or not. If "TimesAreAChanging" came in and put up a good argument in favor of the version he created, I feel like it would be hard to disagree with him... Sergecross73 msg me 19:44, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
I don't feel strongly about the changes to the template, not least of all because my version was partly based on information difficult to prove using reliable sources. That said, I remain conflicted about what to make of Tripple-ddd as an editor. Is his occasionally disruptive behavior the product of English not being his first language? Is he truly the Sega expert he presents himself as? (Are Love and Berry and Let's Make!! in the wrong alphabetical order? Not if Tripple-ddd is going by the full Japanese names of these franchises... but then what is up with Oasis?)
Fantasy Zone was listed under "other" because I heard conflicting stories about who developed the game; the Genesis version, if not the original, was really made by Sunsoft. Perhaps I was completely wrong to doubt that the first game was the product of Sega Japan, but I wonder whether Tripple-ddd is in any position to say.
Tripple-ddd says that Treasure and Platinum Games should not be given special attention, but listing their games under "Sega Japan" could be the more misleading approach. To clarify, I did not single out those companies because they are fan favorites, but because—unlike all of the other studios whose work was included under "Other"—they produced multiple franchises for Sega.
Tripple-ddd has combined Sega Europe, Sega America, and Sega-published games developed by American or European third parties under "Sega West"—and conflated all Sega-published games developed in Japan with "Sega of Japan", including those developed by the external studios Treasure and Platinum. In that light, it almost seems strange that he is content with keeping Atlus as a separate brand—not that I want to give him any ideas.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 02:33, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
Atlus publisher their own games, which say, Creative Assembly doesn't.--Tripple-ddd (talk) 08:28, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Questioning whether or not some of these Sega franchises are notable to be on this template[edit]

Series such Clockwork Knight, Dinosaur King, Eternal Champions, Headhunter, Kingdom Conquest, Oshare Majo, Mushiking, and Beyond Oasis are either too obscure or dormant for me to think these titles are noteworthy to this template. Uuruuseiyo (talk) 05:23, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

  • I think that if they don't have a series article, then they could be removed. But then, we are still removing legit Sega IPs from the navbox, so you could debate that as well. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 05:50, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
  • We can figure out inclusion criteria for inclusion, but we'll need more objective standards that "dormant" or "too obscure". Like, we'd have to define where to draw the line on gongs like that... Sergecross73 msg me 01:37, 27 February 2016 (UTC)
  • Yeah, that's why I think maybe we should just settle on games that have series articles, or at least character ones like Alex Kidd. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 05:09, 27 February 2016 (UTC)