Template talk:Greek Royal Family

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Should Princess Katherine of Greece and Denmark, Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, Prince Michael of Greece add to this template? Astorknlam 10:30 (GMT)

Styles for married princesses[edit]

A discrepancy that has come up in comparing some of these royalty templates is that whether princesses married to commoners should be called HRH (or whatever) Princess [her given name], Mrs [husband's full name], or whether they should be given as HRH (or whatever) Princess [her given name], Mrs [husband's surname]. For royal families with websites, the decision is not difficult. However, there are templates of several defunct royal families, treated as royal families (which is another issue), which do not have their own websites with information about their preferred styles. Largely, it appears that the traditional formula HRH (or whatever) Princess [her given name], Mrs [husband's full name] is being used. Have I misunderstood this to be a discrepancy, or is everything alright how it is? GiovanniCarestini (talk) 01:43, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

In any case, I followed Surtsicna's example in listing Princess Alexia in the Danish royal template. But perhaps someone good with the markup could make it work so that on two of the pages where that template appears, Princess Alexia's name appears as edited in the template, namely, HRH Princess Alexia, Mrs Morales. Those two pages that are not doing it right are the page of Queen Anne-Marie of Greece, and that of the Danish Royal Family. GiovanniCarestini (talk) 02:25, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Use of coat of arms[edit]

The coat of arms has been removed from this template because it has been tagged with a fair use tag. Wikipedia:Fair use criteria item #9 proscribes the use of fair use images in templates. I have modified the template to accept a passed element, such that the template can be invoked with an element referencing the image, rendering the template in the main article it is transcluded to. For example, {{Greek Royal Family|[[Image:Information icon.svg|150px]]}} renders as at right. Note that I did not include the coat of arms image to use, which is Image:RoyGrec.png, since use here on this talk page would also be a violation. --Durin 17:40, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The King or King Constantine[edit]

Today User:Charles altered the template from "HM King Constantine II" to "HM The King" (and similar changes for Anne Marie, Pavlos, and Marie-Chantal). I have reverted the change until there has been discussion about it. Constantine is no longer widely recognised as "THE King of Greece" (except by a small number of legitimists). It seems to me to be POV to list him in this fashion (even though I personally may have some sympathy with that POV). Noel S McFerran (talk) 15:24, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

What is he then? If he is accorded the title of king at all, he is the king as there is only one. I can understand the use of forenames for consorts and dowagers but not for the man who did reign as the King of Greece. Compare the templates of other deposed royal families. Charles 19:10, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
It is perfectly possible for a man to be a king, but not the king. In 1802 King Charles Emmanuel IV of Sardinia abdicated as the king of Sardinia, but he retained the personal style of king; he was no longer "the King of Sardinia", but he remained "King Charles Emmanuel IV". The present situation with Constantine is admittedly not the same since he has never abdicated. But he is no longer recognised (except by a very few people) as "the King of Greece". My undoing of Charles' edit was friendly - as he took it. But if it were left, then somebody else would come along and change it, and probably not in a friendly manner. Noel S McFerran (talk) 21:23, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I feel still that the title of "King" is much like "the Prince of Hanover" or "the Margrave of Meissen"... What is it that makes those men who have never reigned in any capacity able to carry those titles as such yet a man who was The (reigning) King of Greece cannot be styled The King of Greece, which is what he was and is, former or not. Charles 05:03, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Usage. Constantine is not commonly referred to in contemporary publications as "the King of Greece". He is more commonly referred to as either "King Constantine of Greece" or more likely as "the former King of Greece" or "ex-King Constantine". Noel S McFerran (talk) 11:05, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Context. This template is entirely about the Greek Royal Family and absolutely nothing else. We are not replicating a publication, we have a template. Common names are not *always* the best way to go... "Prince Charles" for the Prince of Wales, "Princess Diana" for Diana Princess of Wales, "Queen Elizabeth" for the Queen, etc. Charles 01:31, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Charles. The way they're listed now is simply inaccurate. If Constantine II is not the king, then he shouldn't be styled His Majesty and he shouldnt be titled king at all. Surtsicna (talk) 18:52, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
Please cite a contemporary publication (excepting, of course, those from Greek monarchist organisations) which refers to Constantine as "the King of Greece". Noel S McFerran (talk) 21:00, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
MSNBC did in a headline. Surtsicna is also right, is he isn't HM The King of Greece at all, he should even be "HM" or "King" for that matter. What is the basis for these pedantic requests for exact styling when people rarely do give formal styles? Again, context. Charles 03:08, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Noel, if you haven't noticed, having a Greek Royal Family template at all is monarchism. Also, given the sheer number of defunct royal families with templates on Wikipedia calling the heads of houses, The Prince or The Tsar or whatever, we should call Constantine II The King if for consistency only. 01:48, 20 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by GiovanniCarestini (talkcontribs)

Crown Princess Pavlos[edit]

The only reference to her as Marie-Chantel on the RF's website is in Crown Prince Pavlos' profile which says he married Marie-Chantel Miller but she is referred to as Crown Princess Pavlos elsewhere. Why should this template not list her under what she is called by the RF. - dwc lr (talk) 07:32, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Because she is also identified on those pages as Marie Chantal even if "Crown Princess Pavlos" is used in addition. Here, she is not. Her own name ought to be used to identify her or no name at all. This reeks of the stink made about naming royal peeresses ("oh no, but if you call her that people will think she's divorced"). She's seemingly called "Crown Princess Marie-Chantal" more often anyway. Really though, it makes more sense to give everyone's name or none at all for people who are "the" (king, queen, crown prince, crown princess). Charles 07:39, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
She is listed as "Crown Princess Pavlos" at the RF's website this is what was decided at the time of her marriage I don't see why the template should use an unofficial style their is no need for template to differ from how the Greek RF styles her. - dwc lr (talk) 17:12, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
We are not the Greek Royal Family, are we? We don't have to replicate text verbatim especially where it varies and where there are many available forms, none of which are incorrect. Charles 23:48, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

RfC: The King or King Constantine[edit]

Should Constantine be referred to as "HM The King" or as "HM King Constantine II"? Noel S McFerran (talk) 18:55, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

My thoughts: Since the de facto creation of the Hellenic Republic Constantine is no longer commonly referred to in published literature as "the King of Greece"; he is normally referred to as "King Constantine II of Greece". A man can have the title of king without being "the king"; this is somewhat comparable to President Bill Clinton no longer being "the President of the United States". Noel S McFerran (talk) 19:00, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Template: Romanian Royal Family and Template: Bulgarian Royal Family use HM The King & HM The Tsar, respectively. Those countries monarchies were abolished, long before the Greek's. GoodDay (talk) 19:49, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
The difference is though, Noel, that there are multiple former presidents of the United States but only one king of Greece. Charles 17:33, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
it doesnt matter if there is one king or a hundred kings, you cannot be THE king of a country that is no longer a monarchy. Offically his title is Former King Constantine II of Greece same as anne-marie she is offically Former Queen Anne-Marie but as corsty he and anne-marie are styled as King Constantine and Queen Anne-Marie of Greece not THE King and The Queen because they rule no country AliaBuhler (talk) 17:37, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I would like to see a citation stating that The King's "official title" is Former King Constantine II of Greece. I also suggest you read about definite and indefinite articles. Constantine is a king but he is the King of Greece since there is only one. He is the former King of Greece, etc, but "the" nonetheless. Charles 17:38, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
The correct form of address is King Constantine, former King of the Hellenes.[1] - dwc lr (talk) 18:14, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
But we won't put that in the template. If we did that exactly we'd also have to remove the HRH for the children of the Crown Prince and for Princess Theodora and Prince Philippos, who were not born under the monarchy. Charles 18:50, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
The official website says how he should/wants to be styled so I agree he should not be listed as The King. I don't see why the template should differ from the listing of members on the RF's website (Crown Princess Pavlos). - dwc lr (talk) 21:41, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
If this nonsense sticks I would like the template to read HH Prince Constantine of Denmark and HRH Princess Anne Marie of Denmark. They are the King and the Queen otherwise. Charles 17:41, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
If this is about what to put in the Template? Follow the example I've given. PS- Constantine's personal title wouldn't be King of Greece; it would be King of the Hellenes. GoodDay (talk) 18:33, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
If you read my previous argument I'm not "The King". Anything else is denying that title by the way the arguments are so they might as well say to demote him to HH Prince Constantine of Denmark at that. Charles 18:51, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
You are going from one extreme to another to me your basically going if i can't have him as The king then he should be HH Prince constantine, it isn't just up to you. Here is another link this link also links to his offical website [2] note the title former king of greece, thats what his own website have used. No-one here is denying him the title of King he just isn't THE King of Greece as he was removed as THE King, as i've said before they are allowed to style themselves as King Constantine and Queen Anne-Marie out of corsty just not as the King and Queen of greece. AliaBuhler (talk) 18:58, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I hear what you're saying but I don't buy it (and I won't). Here the King calls himself "the King of Greece". Here he is referred to as The King. Charles 19:23, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
People, I've noticed the template has been changed; does this mean the other defunct Royal Family Templates are gonna be changed too? GoodDay (talk) 19:18, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps they should be I don't think Simeon II calls himself The Tsar of Bulgaria. - dwc lr (talk) 21:41, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't call myself Charles, other people do. We're not going to have him as Simeon Sakskoburggotski on the royal family template. Charles 22:00, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Tsar Simeon II is fine like King Constantine as neither of them are sadly the monarch's of their respective countries as unfortunately they are republics. I'm coming of the opinion that The King/Queen should be reserved for reigning monarchs in these RF templates. We will see what the consensus is regarding this issue. Deposed monarchs tend to be referred to as former Kings as opposed to the King - dwc lr (talk) 22:17, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Being referred to as something is one thing, but there is no proof or evidence whatsoever that a former monarch cannot be "the King" if there is only one king. A difference would be Otto (Bavaria) of Greece, since there were two kings of Greece then. But that's it. If we went exactly by what people were referred to we would have "Princess Diana" and probably "Tino Glucksburg" on this article if some people had their way. If he is referred to as "Former King", use that. It's ridiculous, isn't it? Charles 06:33, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
If there is no the King, there is no the Greek Royal Family - if there is no the Greek Royal Family, we don't need this template at all. Surtsicna (talk) 16:47, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps Defunct Greek Royal Family or something similiar, is required. GoodDay (talk) 21:53, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Some of the templates use Titular xxx Royal Family. - dwc lr (talk) 22:36, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
I'd accept that Titular Greek Royal Family, Titular Romanian Royal Family etc. Afterall, how can they be Royal Families when their respective countries are now Republics. PS- This all ties into my argument against using de jure reigns. GoodDay (talk) 22:40, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
I share a concern with how de jure reigns are represented. However, the fact that a country has a de facto republican government does not mean that it cannot also have a royal family. Surely a national adjective (e.g. Greek) can be applied to things other than those officially sanctioned by the current government. It's POV to represent the current government as the only determiner of what can be described with the national adjective. There are lots of scholarly works which describe Constantine and his family as the "Greek Royal Family", so it's perfectly appropriate for Wikipedia to do so. Noel S McFerran (talk) 22:52, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
As far as I'm informed, the former king of Greece has taken a new surname. He now calls himself Constantinos Degrecia (I'm not sure about the spelling), issuing a passport for that purpose. Maybe we should refer to him with that surname since he is just a regular citizen and not the king? Pel thal (talk) 15:24, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
No, this is not a template describing people taken to be commoners. Charles 19:08, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

As a general Wikipedia rule, in Wikipedia articles MOS:HONORIFIC says that honorific prefixes should not be used unless they are being discussed ("xxx is entitled to the prefix yyy because of his position"). So, whatever the correct form of address in society, no HM here. Pol098 (talk) 18:31, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. Naming a monarch who has been deposed for almost 40 years now simply "The King" implies to the uninformed reader that he is, actually, "the King". He isn't. He was the King, and he is still courteously called the King of Greece by some, but always with the qualifiction "former" etc or at least a clarification that he is not, in fact, a reigning monarch any more. Trying to steer a middle course, I've changed the names to the form "King Constantine II", "Crown Prince Pavlos" etc. Constantine 18:41, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

Prince Michael and family[edit]

Where about on the RF's website is Prince Michael's wife referred to as Princess Marina. Why have their daughters been given HRH in the template. - dwc lr (talk) 20:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

What is the evidence for the styles given to Olga and Alexandra. - dwc lr (talk) 22:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

There are two sources given at Princess Olga, Duchess of Apulia#Dynastic status, and that section claims they are not entitled to "Royal Highness" by birth, from which I infer that Olga's Royal Highness is by marriage. DrKay (talk) 19:24, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

Princess Nikolaos[edit]

We have to assume what title she holds now if we are going to include her in the template. Greek princesses by marriage have always been known by their husband's title, from Princess Andrew of Greece and Denmark until Crown Princess Pavlos. Thus, it makes more sense to assume that she is Princess Nikolaos than to assume that she is Princess Tatiana.

Besides, even the rarely reliable Google hits are in favour of "Princess Nikolaos".[3][4] The Spy Who Came in from the Cold (talk) 14:28, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

RfC notification[edit]

A request for comments which may impact this template has been started at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biographies#RfC on style in royal family templates. You are welcome to comment there. Fram (talk) 14:25, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Placement of Princess Maria - Olympia[edit]

So we can discuss this like civilized people, I have opened a discussion section. I think it will be appropriate for Princess Maria Olympia to be listed first among her parents' children to show she is the eldest. When her brother gets married, Constantine-Alexois, she can go second, but right now when they are all still married she should be first. Take for example the Hapsburg's template. Even the married Archdukes are behind their sisters. Prancer16 (talk) 22:59, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

The Austrian Imperial Family template shows Male preference, that is the Archdukes are above their sisters and their sons above their daughters. Same goes for the British royal family since it has only recently changed to absolute primogeniture (unfortunately) and the children of HM The queen are are ordered from eldest sons to the princess royal at the bottom. Even here on the Greek RF template the sons of HM The King are above his daughters, Even though Prince Philipos isn't married.Deusvolt2016 (talk) 22:59, 14 January 2017 (UTC)

That is definitely not true. The only male who is ahead of his sister is the Archduke Ferdinand Zvonimir, since he is direct heir apparent, which Maria's brothers are not. Everyone else is not look through every branch you can find at least one sister ahead of her brother.Prancer16 (talk) 20:08, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Archduke Georg as well as his son are above his sisters. Deusvolt2016 (talk) 23:21, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

That must be a recent change... because when I had checked it he was behind some of his sisters.Prancer16 (talk) 19:56, 14 February 2017 (UTC)