Template talk:Infobox book

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subtitle italicisation[edit]

I've added |subtitle=. It should use the same italicisation as |title=. Could someone check my code in that regard, please? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:17, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Andy Mabbett, the title is always italic (no conditional, see titlestyle), so you don't need any conditional in the subheaderstyle. the |italictitle= is for the automatic italicisation of title at the top of the transcluding article. Frietjes (talk) 14:09, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
Of course. Thank you. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 15:30, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
This change was initiated in on an other talkpage, see Template talk:Infobox#subtitle. The edits mentioned here (25 October 2014) have been undone, see [1]. As for layout, this (reverted) form, placement in the first subheader would separate title and subtitle by the box's border. See follow up in section #Subtitle below. -DePiep (talk) 05:57, 31 October 2014 (UTC)


The template:infobox book/sandbox version is updated, 10 November. See Update note below. -DePiep (talk) 13:45, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

I propose to add optional parameter |subtitle= to this infobox. In code (simplified here):

| title = {{{name|{{PAGENAME}}}}}{{#if:{{{subtitle|}}}|<br/><small>{{{subtitle|}}}</small>}}
Animal Farm
Author George Orwell
Proposal is in the /sandbox, see also /testcases. @Pigsonthewing, Frietjes, Rezonansowy: -DePiep (talk) 05:51, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
In Wikidata, subtitle is property P392. -DePiep (talk) 06:23, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
Books with subtitles (compare current solution): Animal farm, My Senator and Me, On the Origin of Species -DePiep (talk) 09:49, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
You mean you propose to re-add the parameter, which you recently removed after I added it. I oppose the use of your code, which shoehorns the subtitle into the {{Infobox}} template's |Title= parameter, with a <br/> separator. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 01:19, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
Can you explain why you oppose adding this parameter while you have added it yourself before? -DePiep (talk) 09:08, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
I don't oppose adding the parameter; what I said was " I oppose the use of your code, which shoehorns the subtitle into the {{Infobox}} template's |Title= parameter, with a <br/> separator. ". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:00, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
Then, do you maintain your earlier proposal (by edit, now reverted) to have a subtitle as an infobox subheader, separated from the title by the infobox's border? Or do you have a third option? -DePiep (talk) 14:10, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
There being no argument against it other than your IDONTLIKEIT, of course I do. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:29, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
Answered days ago. -DePiep (talk) 22:50, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
Support - Ollieinc (talk) 03:33, 1 November 2014 (UTC)
In doubt Now I have a problem in the visual appearance of both solutions. --Rezonansowy (talk | contribs) 08:34, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
Rezonansowy can you describe that problem? -DePiep (talk) 22:47, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
See below, bold subtitle for such long texts doesn't look too good, IMO. --Rezonansowy (talk | contribs) 08:56, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
Apart from being long, I don't see things that bad. As it is in the lefthand (current version), it is a weird sentence (lowercase start...) starting out of nowhere. Is that any base for how you'd like to see a subtitle?
/sandbox (1) is Updated. See Update note below.-DePiep (talk) 13:45, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
In Template:Infobox/testcases Frietjes is showing a third option. -DePiep (talk) 20:29, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
subheader vs. subtitle
{{Infobox}} {{Infobox book/sandbox}}
On the Origin of Species
by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life
Origin of Species title page.jpg
The title page of the 1859 edition
of On the Origin of Species[1]
On the Origin of Species
Origin of Species title page.jpg
The title page of the 1859 edition
of On the Origin of Species[2]
  • comment: the use of <br /> and <small>...</small> tags is suboptimal. Frietjes (talk) 18:30, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
I fully agree. Can be solved at Template talk:Infobox, but I don't know what's holding things up there. Parametername, semantics, datarow. I don't see the problem. -DePiep (talk) 22:44, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
sure, ignoring the fact that the only proposal at Template talk:Infobox uses <br /> and <small>...</small> tags, which is suboptimal. Frietjes (talk) 20:10, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Update 2014-11-10. To improve visual apearance, I've changed the subtitle format: title italics stay; font-size:smaller; font-weight:normal (unbold). See testcases for /sandbox (1). Three fonts effects was a bit much. Comments? -DePiep (talk) 13:45, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Read by parameter[edit]

Please add Read by parameter, which is useful for audiobooks. It defines person who read the book for recording the audiobook. It was used in {{Torchwood book}} for example. --Rezonansowy (talk | contribs) 18:43, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

A preferred position? -DePiep (talk) 19:45, 9 November 2014 (UTC)
Maybe after the {{{writer}}} {{{author}}}... --Rezonansowy (talk | contribs) 09:21, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
Added |read by= to the /sandbox, not yet /sandbox2. See template:infobox book/testcases, added to the examples.
Second thought: shouldn't we name it |audio read by=, both parameter and label? If seen isolated (without the word "audio book" nearby), it could be misunderstood as 'those who have read the book'.
(+lol, you got me. Our books don't have a {{{writer|}}}). -DePiep (talk) 13:22, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
Should we push this into live as a merge from (TfD) Touchwood books? Any more from that one to add? -DePiep (talk) 13:35, 10 November 2014 (UTC)
Yes, this would be good idea from the technical point. --Rezonansowy (talk | contribs) 10:29, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
OK, |audio read by= now ready for deployment in the sandbox (see testcases).
One more question @Rezonansowy:: the Torchwood template also has |set between= option. I think that is useful in here too. We can use a more general name+label here: |set in period=; position right below "subject". Add? -DePiep (talk) 12:48, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
And another one: why not have a "set in place" option too, next to "time"? Let's make it:
[label data] Set in |set in=. This way the editor can add appropriate text to make it read: "Set in  Russia, 1918". (I must say, together with "genre" and "subject" this is a more interpretive parameter, not as factual as the others). Add? -DePiep (talk) 12:55, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Read by seems good (might be a good idea to discourage enthusiastic editors in the documentation from trying to list every person to have read, say, the Sherlock Holmes novels though). I don't think that |set between= in these cases would be able to be replaced by |set in= and |set in period=, as this seems to have been used for continuity (in addition to |preceded by= and |followed by=; not sure of the precise logic used to distinguish these, but if standardised with other {{infobox book}} uses, the latter could be used alone); that's not to say it wouldn't be useful as an extra parameter, just not an equivalent replacement. Also wondering what would happen if a book was set in multiple periods and places (Cloud Atlas springs to mind)... would it display as something like "Set in  Chatham Islands; Zedelghem, Belgium; Buenas Yerbas, California; Britain; Nea So Copros, Korea; Big Island, Hawaii, 1850; 1931; 1975; present day; future; far future"? ‑‑xensyriaT 15:55, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Indeed, no need to copy the strict definition from there, I only took the idea. I guess the Set in label can cover nicely relevant time and/or place.
An editor adding a long list - well, too much detail and irrelevants can be added everywhere, in text too. We need sound judgement for that, not making a good edit impossible. (see how many "relation" family members are listed in John F. Kennedy). My signing, late: -DePiep (talk) 18:34, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
No support from original requester Rezonansowy, so this idea about |set in= will not continue. -DePiep (talk) 18:44, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Will propose the |audio read by= addition (below), as is in the sandbox now. -DePiep (talk) 18:44, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

  • Please replace all code with all sandbox code.
  • Changes: Add parameter |audio read by= as asked & discussed above in #Read by parameter. Data rows had to be renumbered.

Note: I could do the edit myself (under TE-protection), but an extra pair of eyes are welcome. -DePiep (talk) 18:56, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

@DePiep: I'm not so experienced in it, if it's useful just add it. --Rezonansowy (talk | contribs) 19:10, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
I take you for the Book specialist ;-): if you think it's useful in the tempalte, we'll add it. (edit request paused for now) -DePiep (talk) 19:18, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
added as |audio_read_by= since all other parameters in the template use underscores instead of spaces. Frietjes (talk) 19:49, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
  • @DePiep: I support two set in params. Now it looks very good and would be very useful. Time to think about Wikidata props :) --Rezonansowy (talk | contribs) 20:08, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Frietjes@ We are cross editing (funny experience). I leave this to you from here. -DePiep (talk) 20:11, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
fixed as |set_in= since all the other parameters use underscores instead of spaces. Frietjes (talk) 20:26, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
What about |set in period=? This is useful as well. --Rezonansowy (talk | contribs) 21:25, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
seems redundant since the setting is the time and place. Frietjes (talk) 21:30, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
OK. --Rezonansowy (talk | contribs) 21:43, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Now {{Torchwood book}} seems to be merged. --Rezonansowy (talk | contribs) 21:43, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Proposed addition of a release_number parameter[edit]

I would like to propose the addition of a release_number parameter for Doctor Who books. I know that this parameter has already been added, but since the addition was never formally proposed here, I thought I would retroactively propose the addition. any objections? Frietjes (talk) 21:38, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

note that there are around 500 or so novels in this category, most of which are now using this parameter. Frietjes (talk) 21:40, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
@Frietjes: It's only fair that you mention why the parameter was added and also why it is already in use: it was this TfD and the one immediately below it. --Redrose64 (talk) 22:06, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
The addition was correctly challenged & reverted. See this appeal to the admin. I find it apalling that this thread is opened as if nothing happened, while he current template version is achieved by disruptive non-talking edit warring. Any editor with a sense of correct procedure would have reverted Pigsonthewing. In this hostage situation, looking for "consensus" with a bleeding nose is not the way to proceed. In this atmosphere, I do not expect that my contributions would be appreciated. -DePiep (talk) 22:59, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
@Redrose64:, yes, thank you for providing the link. in the edit summary, we were instructed to revert the addition if it is controversial. apparently it is controversial. now, as part of WP:BRD, I am attempting to start a discussion about the merits (or lack of merits) of adding it. Frietjes (talk) 00:21, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
OK, so if the decision is not to include this param, does that mean that the two infoboxes deleted yesterday should be reinstated? --Redrose64 (talk) 00:46, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
@Redrose64:, I could be wrong, but I thought the {{Torchwood book}} template was "unused", so it's not really part of this discussion? as far as the Doctor Who books go, a bot replaced all of them putting the 'release number' into the release_number parameter. so, possible outcomes could be (1) the parameter is deemed to be important enough to keep in the infobox, and nothing happens to the articles, (2) the 'release number' is deemed unimportant, and we just remove the parameter from the infobox, (3) a bot/editor moves the 'release number' to a different location within the infobox (e.g., the notes section), or (4) the Doctor Who book template is resurrected and the entire process is restarted as a merger discussion, or (5) something that I haven't considered. Frietjes (talk) 01:05, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
on a related note, I would support reverting Plastikspork's changes while this discussion proceeds (as a minimal good faith gesture) since Plastikspork did say "please revert/discuss if this is controversial". Frietjes (talk) 01:08, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
I've informed the most relevant WikiProject, which I think should have been done at the start. --Redrose64 (talk) 10:10, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
re Redrose64: IMO there is no need to introduce the {{Torchwood}} TfD in here. It the has been discussed here and has concluded. -DePiep (talk) 09:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
My suggestion: make this series and number show in the same data row, e.g.: "Series, number 5, 12" or some other format, with the label if-ed. -DePiep (talk) 09:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
It's more problematic. Is a "Release number" an independent number or is it sub to a series (iow, does the numbering restart in a next series)? When answered whichever way, why would we specify this parameter specific for the Dr Who books, while this is the generic Book template? -DePiep (talk) 10:28, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
One editor disruptively making a point does not amount to a controversy. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:36, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
Of course the parameter should be included. ~500 is not a trivial number of articles. They were, and would again be, would be damaged by its removal. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:36, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
  • The parameter should be included. The only objection so far (running to several Kb over many pages) seems to be on a technicality. Oculi (talk) 10:42, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
    • The parameter has been in the template for several days. No other editor has seen fit to remove it. I suggest this section be marked as resolved. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:13, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
      • I don't see how it harms anything to add it, and only helps thing to not remove it, so I say it shouldn't be removed. — Cirt (talk) 16:45, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Process issues[edit]

Subthread to separate process issues from actual merge discussion. -DePiep (talk) 12:25, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Image size[edit]

For parameter image_size, it says "Default size is 250px. Use a number to change image size". This is incorrect. The infobox book for Adventures of Huckleberry Finn does not specify a size and it defaults to 220px. The infobox for The Scarlet Letter does not specify a size and it defaults to 183 px; this one uses the "upright" parameter. I suspect that other "defaults" are possible, and we're not explaining it at all here. — Anomalocaris (talk) 19:10, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

The default "size" is actually frameless the real value of which depends upon the user's preferences, see WP:EIS#Type. The Scarlet Letter overrides the infobox defaults because it uses the full image syntax
| image         = [[File:Title page for The Scarlet Letter.jpg|upright]]
not the bare filename. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:42, 28 December 2014 (UTC)

Use abbr tag for ISBN?[edit]

I noticed that an <abbr>...</abbr> tag is not being used with ISBN in the infobox whereas OCLC and LC Class do use it. Is there any particular reason why? If not, perhaps we should change

| label30 = [[International Standard Book Number|ISBN]]


| label30 = [[International Standard Book Number|{{abbr|ISBN|International Standard Book Number}}]]

or something similar. Jason Quinn (talk) 20:51, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Just some relevant info: <abbr>...</abbr> is not used by some very old browsers (IE6 and IE7). The rendering is also different on different browsers as Firefox displays an underline while other browsers generally do not. Jason Quinn (talk) 07:32, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Alt and image_size params[edit]

Something appears to be wrong with the alt= and image_size= parameters. I can't change them. – Paine EllsworthCLIMAX! 02:50, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

@Paine Ellsworth: When the full image syntax is used in the |image= parameter, certain other parameters (|image_size= |alt= |border=) are ignored. I fixed Think and Grow Rich like this. --Redrose64 (talk) 10:28, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
Thank you, and forgive me for forgetting that. I increased the size a bit, as I used 100px just to try to get it to change. Anyway, thanks again! Joys! – Paine  10:36, 19 February 2015 (UTC)