Template talk:Justice League
|WikiProject Comics / DC Comics||(Rated Template-class)|
|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Justice League template.|
- 1 enemies
- 2 New proposal
- 3 Category
- 4 Edit request on 16 January 2012
- 5 Klarion, The Witch Boy
- 6 Edit request on 1 November 2012
- 7 Related Team:
- 8 Semi-protected edit request on 25 July 2014
- 9 Katana (comics)
- 10 Batman (Terry McGinnis)
- 11 Recent new members
- 12 Trimming the template
- 13 Other members
- 14 Villains
If you know an major enemy (or enemies) of the Justice League. Please help out on the enemies section. But please no small time villains and not one more involved in other universes like the Joker being primarily involved with Batman. They got to be an big impact on the Justice League and be recurring like Despero, Amazo, Darkseid, Felix Faust and the Injustice League. Captain Virtue (talk)
Hi, this is my proposal for the template based in the Avengers template.
I think it's basically ok, but I'd like to propose adding members that have been in at least two incarnations instead of just "founding members": Green Arrow, the Atom, Hawkman, Black Canary, The Elongated Man, Red Tornado, Hawkgirl, Zatanna , Firestorm, Vixen. I and Wally West. Incidentally, all of them spent a considerable time on the team.--20-dude (talk) 07:16, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
As pointed at WP:PROJCATS, there are content categories and project categories. The content categories are meant to have articles and only articles, while non-article pages go in project categories.
Category:Justice League is a content category. Category:Comic book navigational boxes and Category:DC Comics templates are project categories. A template like this one is not an article, it's a non-article page, and can't be included in the first category. What this page is takes priority over what this page is about. MBelgrano (talk) 15:50, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
- It should stay there becuase how will people know that there's a Justice League Template?Brian Boru is awesome (talk) 19:27, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
- Fine then get rid of it. Brian Boru is awesome (talk) 19:39, 8 March 2011 (UTC)
Edit request on 16 January 2012
|This edit request has been answered. Set the
- Done, since he's also listed at List of Justice League enemies--Jac16888 Talk 17:58, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
Klarion, The Witch Boy
I think Klarion The Witch Boy should be added as:
- He is in the List of Justice League enemies page.
- He is a major Young Justice enemy.
- He sometimes recurs in Justice League.
Edit request on 1 November 2012
|This edit request has been answered. Set the
- Not done Sorry, but that isn't what this is for. At best the template links to the the topics DC used when putting together the original publication. It is not for reflecting the "current" in story continuity. - J Greb (talk) 01:24, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
I know this has been dealt with above, but I suggest Cyborg be moved to the list of founding members, just beside Martian Manhunter. I don't think they have to be mutually exclusive: Martian Manhunter should be there to reflect the older continuity, and of course Cyborg to reflect post New 52. Haleth (talk) 13:22, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 25 July 2014
|This edit request has been answered. Set the
Batman (Terry McGinnis)
Recent new members
I've added Shazam to the template, he's been a member years ago and now he's joined again in New 52 so I'm surprised he isn't already there. Thoughts on Lex Luthor and Captain Cold being considered for additions to the members tab on the template? Haleth (talk) 21:46, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
Trimming the template
So I've been thinking...maybe we should reduce the size of the template by removing the members section entirely for the sake of brevity (like the Avengers templates over at the Marvel side), and just leave in the canon founding members, pre and post Flashpoint, which will leave us with eight entries in total. The reason is because at this point, pretty much the who's who amongst the costumed heroes of the DC Universe have joined the Justice League at some point, so to keep a members section with all known past and present members is kind of a moot point. Anyway, the "members" section is a hotlink to the "list of Justice League members" page and it can go as long as it could be deemed reasonable.
To compensate for that, I would suggest that we create new templates for a couple of notable Justice League spinoff teams, at least the ones which are different enough from the Justice League/Justice League of America. There's already a template for Justice League Dark...so I suggest we start with a Justice League International (since it was a long running recurring team which have been featured before and after Flashpoint) template. We could also do with a Justice League United template if there's enough information. Haleth (talk) 16:26, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
The problem with adding more members on this navbox is where do we cross the line. The ones added are only half of the members that have probably been in the team. We already have an members list article and enemies list article. We don't need to go overboard with them or it will be redundant to the list article. 777 20:03, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
Adding villains here is a very risky thing to do. For one thing we can add major villains like the Joker who is common among super villain teams like the injustice league or injustice gang but he is very rarely a boss of a team or commonly an enemy on his own. Of course sometimes he is...he is DC's most popular villain after all. But that doesn't mean he belongs. Also with Superman being a leader. It's kind of common to have a Superman rogue on there. But I didn't see that many Justice League comics cited in his page. Also whatever the New 52 or media adaptions is doing now isn't enough to change all that. Joker and Doomsday are iconic undoubtly...but that excuse doesn't necessarily make them an official rogue of the Justice League unlike Darkseid and Lex Luthor. I want to know the impact and the Justice League central comic book the characters have had an impact if that is possible. 777 15:02, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
- Also linking Flaspoint or the new 52 is unneeded. This is a navbox where we link and help navigate readers to articles are relevant to the navbox. They have no relevance on this navbox. 777 15:09, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
I can't even begin to describe how absurd it is you're using the word "risky". What and where is the risk?? It's really no more then my word versus your word once again, and I am beginning to notice a pattern where you often consider your subjective opinion as the default consensus. You don't like the idea, so you don't want it in there...it has nothing to do with objectivity. The Joker is often leader or co-leader alongside Lex Luthor (who BTW is now effectively a member of the Justice League) in most incarnations of the villain groups pre-Flashpoint (Injustice Gang etc) which oppose the Justice League in the past, mainstream continuity and other media/elseworlds, so if Lex is considered a recurring rogue then so does he. He's not really a Justice League rogue in the New 52 of course, but then there's Endgame.
The precise amount of citations on a character's page in order to judge the number of recurring appearances is not a reliable guide, because it merely reflects how much research or citation work other editors have done on the particular page. DC Wikia profiles of characters however, documents and indexes the total number of appearances any particular incarnation of a character has made ever. So I suggest you look there instead. Haleth (talk) 15:42, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
- DC database is the opposite of what Wkipedia is about. Do not use that as an example. DC database is in-universe. Wikipedia is not. Also you are using fallacy on me. You are pointing out what you don't like me doing when I can say the same about you adding stuff you want added just because you are a fan of so and so. I am willing to have more opinions on here to reflect an actual consensus. Since you hate my every opinion I have just to avoid original research, also because I admit that I am not the boss or owner of this or any navbox. So, let's just cool down and avoid the edit conflict as much as we can. 777
- The characters you are talking about appeared mostly in JLA: Year One comic books. That are not THAT recurring. It's hardly over 10 comic books that they appear and notability is not established enough for their own article. The problem is you are trying to make Wikipedia too much like DC Database or Marvel Database. In-Universe arguments, not caring about notability or original research etc. You treat new events in comic books like it's real life for crying out loud. 777 16:18, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
- You use an edit summary to tell what you are doing. (Adding Ocean Master) Not explain something that can be said here. 777 16:32, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
I've tried to update the talk page 3 times, and each time it's being interrupted because you have added something in the mean time. And I made that edit just before you started accusing me of original research.
You're missing my point. I am not saying that wikipedia should emulate a Wikia project, far from that. I am saying that if you really want to keep track of the exact number of comic book appearances a character has made, projects with a database like that are apparently quite helpful as a tool. If for example, pre-Flashpoint Circe has appeared in 82 comic book issues in total, Wonder Woman title or otherwise, that is most definitely a fact and the wikia helps keep track of that fact. If I want to research for example, how many issues of a particular title a character has appeared in, and then if I want to dig deeper, then I can find out whether they played substantial roles or just a cameo in these issues. For example as a quick analysis, Doomsday mostly appeared in Action Comics and the Superman titles of course, but he has also appeared in quite a number of JL comics, Wonder Woman series, and a handful of limited series crossover titles. If you want to define him narrowly then yeah he probably is a Superman-exclusive villain, but he did fight the Justice League several times, before or after New 52.
And you're saying that I "hate" every opinion you have, or using words like "risky"? You know what that sounds like to me? An emotional response. A typical response fans who have an emotional investment in the subject would make. I am not saying that I am not a fan or incapable of responding in a reactionary way when changes happen in a subject matter I happen to be interested in...but if you want me to give you the benefit of the doubt (which I have tried to, and like you I do change my mind after thinking it over), you have to give that in return too. I am getting tired of coming into conflict with you over petty matters. For the last time, I am not interested in being a fanboy or pushing stuff I am emotionally invested in, I simply want whatever I work on to at least come close to reflecting the facts. If you keep track of the edits I've made in some places, then you'll understand that I am just trying to do something.
And speaking of fallacy, notability and original research, I am following the same logic you demonstrated over at the Batman template. Doctor Death and Julie Madison if you recall? You made a big deal about the significance of their appearances being first (recurring enemy and love interest, respectively). But wait, if you're saying notability isn't established, why pray tell do the Appellaxians still have their own page? No one has posted a notice challenging notability of the subject's page...yet. You can do the honours if that page really strikes you as being non-notable. Another thing though, a lot of the entries you removed on the template, I didn't put them there. Some of that has been there for years. Haleth (talk) 16:48, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
In a nutshell, what I am saying is not to cite wikia or take anything written there at face value or emulate how articles are written on wikipedia based on its wikia counterpart. However, I find that wikia does have a helpful database which keep tracks of virtually every single comic book appearance in existence by any incarnation of any particular character, that's all. So if you really want to know if a particular character has made any other major recurring appearances other then the original mythos they have originated from then it's useful. T.O. Morrow is a good example. Counting the number of citations on a wikipedia page to measure recurring number of media appearances isn't that accurate, because articles are always a work in progress...citations only end up there when someone else has already put in the work. Haleth (talk) 16:55, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
- Quit trying to determine what I sound like to you. That was my point in the beginning. That is irrelevant to this navbox. That is the fallacy that I was talking about. Pointing fingers in attitude and actions is against assuming good faith in Wikipedia. You are also WAY off. Saying you hate my opinion is an emotional response? What? No it doesn't. Also you pointing out you said you use the same logic that I did. Enough! This is the same argument as the other things exists essay instead this time it is the user not an article.
- A character having their own page doesn't determine notability. It's sources. I could AFD that page right now. It will probably be deleted or merged because it only consists of primary sources. Do you even read Wikpedia's guidelines? I am on a tablet right now. So linking them is too much. But I would if I could.
- I am not upset nor am I going to edit war. I even asked more opinions for consensus. Because a consensus clearly needs to be made instead. We are both neither right or wrong with the additions/exclusions. Clearly second opinions need to be addressed. Also some of these additions were added my me when I was a newb and a "fanboy" on Wikipedia. I have grown then. I am the one that added the villain part ironically. 777 17:26, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
There is an article called List of Justice League enemies. If you want to list villains this is the link you should be using as I agree with Jhederson (assuming I am interpreting his issue correctly) that if you add villains such as the existing ones, then other editors can add other villains they think are notable and it becomes effectively a list of DC supervillains. Plus some of those listed seem fairly unnotable: Shaggy Man? Weapons Master? Looking at their articles they seem to be minor characters at best, why would they need to be listed alongside the likes of Luthor and the joker? The easiest and neatest solution is to use the existing article List of Justice League enemies. You can probably keep the groups since they rarely exist outside of Justice League tales. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 21:54, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
- I definitely can maybe agree that there is still minor villains for the list. Although I am still wondering if villains like Joker and Doomsay belong too. Darkseid, Doomsday and Lex Luthor are major villains no doubt. Lex has been a leader for almost half of the supervillain team opposing the Justice League. Darkseid is one of their most dangerous villains. I am wondering if the Joker (an obvious Batman villain) though has established himself as a PRIMARY Justice League villain. Same with Doomsday. Also maybe even Solomon Grundy, Ultra-Humanite, Gorilla Grodd and Ra's Al Ghul if editors feel like adding them because they are major baddies from the established universe as well. Where do we draw the line and how do we decipher who belongs here I think is an important question. I personally think the Avengers navbox handled it better. 777 23:13, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
- I'm afraid I have to disagree with the idea of adding any villains to the Justice League template. Because the Justice League is, for the vast part, a collection of preexisting heroes with their own individual rogues' galleries, lumping Batman's enemies or Superman's enemies or Green Lantern's enemies into the template seems simply reundant — and with the sheer number of heroes who have been in the Justice League throughout the years, remarkably unwieldy as well. --Tenebrae (talk) 18:39, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
- Agree to disagree. There consists of Amazo, Despero, Queen of Fables, Starro, Felix Faust, Eclipso etc. that are designed to be original Justice League enemies. Although the lumping of other villains is an issue why I invited other editors in the first place. Haleth included Joker, Doomsday and even Ocean Master (?). I doubt these additions are necessary. We already have the Injustice League and the Injustice Gang on here when it comes to the Joker's most primary role as an antagonist. He's never been a main boss to half of the villain teams compared to Lex Luthor. That is just one villain example. 777 19:11, 16 August 2015 (UTC)