Template talk:Nagorno-Karabakh Conflict
This template is pretty good and usefull, Im glad somebody took the initiative to create it but I cant agree with the aiding countries. Its pretty funny to see League of Arab States and Israel together aiding Azerbaijan, while both are at war. Its true that both are supporting Azerbaijan but aid? I dont think so. Russia was aiding Armenia and Azerbaijan was very offensive against both Russia and Iran after declaring both as historical enemies, thats why both didnt aid Azerbaijan. And about Afghanistan there are rumours about that but why would Afghans aid Azerbaijan a year after Azerbaijani troops withdrew from the war against Afghans, I think we should keep it real untill good agreements. I do agree with Turkey though, Turkey gave 60 jeeps and troop transport vehicles to Azerbaijan for free. Baku87 16:17, 21 June 2006 (UTC)Baku87
- Hey baku, I think I should clarify that part. The LOAS didn't help Azerbaijan per se, but several Arab nations did. Israel aided Azerbaijan because it wanted to bolster its relationship with Turkey by finding a new ally against Iran, which was Azerbaijan. I've seen video footage of the arms shipments that were captured by Armenian troops and had Hebrew writing upon it, showing direct proof Israel was aiding Azerbaijan. Also, there was a article in the French paper Le Figaro by Pierre Rousselin on November 17 1992. I can't find the article's title but perhaps a search in their archives (provided they go that far) will be in it.
- Here is a quote from the Jerusalem Report on Feb 24, 1994:
- "Still, Azeri sources in Baku insist that several private Israeli companies are in fact "helping" the Azeris. Which may make the matter of Frankel's presence, and his silence, less of a riddle."
- The New York Times also reported that Israel was aiming to strenghtn its ties with former Soviet Muslim republics in September 1993.
- Elchibey I know was staunchly anti-Russian but there's no use in hiding the fact that before, during, and after Elchibey's reign, Russians provided arms to Azerbaijan, where it was direct or indirectly. It was recorded pretty throughly in the news.
- Here's one incident in 1993:
- "GANJA, Azerbaijan -- Hundreds of Russian troops have been deployed secretly in Azerbaijan to buttress the collapsing Azerbaijani army, a move that could shift the tide in Azerbaijan's five-year undeclared war with Armenia"
- "About 200 Russian army trainers in northern Azerbaijan have arrived as the former Soviet republic's rag-tag army is disintegrating at the hands of ethnic Armenian forces, who have seized almost a third of Azerbaijani territory."
- Azerbaijan gets Russian help against Armenians; [Final Edition]
- The Ottawa Citizen. Ottawa, Ont.: Nov 23, 1993. pg. A.12
- Afghans helping Azerbaijan is also well documented. Again, its not Afghanistan per se, but Mujahadeen fighters from Afghanistan, this time contracted by Aliev's Government in 1993-1994. Here are some more sources:
- "Increasingly desperate Azerbaijan, facing a new drive by Armenian separatists based in this mountain city, has sent barely trained teenage recruits to quell the upheaval it has suffered since the Soviet Union's collapse two years ago, Western diplomats say. The recruits, some reportedly as young as 16, are part of an unconventional army that has included Afghan mercenaries and U.S., Iranian, Russian and Turkish trainers. It appears, so far, to have held back the latest Armenian offensive."
- San Francisco Chronicle (pre-1997 Fulltext)., Apr 23, 1994. pg. A.11
- "Security authorities in this mountainous region, which is the stronghold of ethnic Armenian forces, showed the Monitor a collection of material including Islamic literature printed in Afghanistan, notebooks and charts on the organization of artillery units, unmailed personal letters addressed to Pakistan and Afghanistan, and an array of personal snapshots of the Afghan warriors taken in identifiable locations within Azerbaijan. Most of the documents were written in either Dari, the Afghan dialect of Persian, or Pashto, the language of the majority of Afghans."
- "Reports that Azerbaijan had hired a force of more than 1,000 Afghan mujahideen fighters surfaced last week in two Western newspapers, citing diplomatic sources in the Azeri capital of Baku. Azerbaijan government officials subsequently denied those reports. But the material provided to the Monitor is the first concrete evidence obtained by a Western news organization verifying those initial reports."
- Christian Science Monitor (pre-1997 Fulltext). Boston, Mass.: Nov 16, 1993. pg. NOPGCIT
- So there you have it, I think I'll revert it back for the time being. If you need more sources, I'll be more than happy to provide them for you.--MarshallBagramyan 18:03, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
- You cant just make a template based only on your ideas, if your going to be like this then it should also be added that Iran helped and it still helping Armenia aswell as economical as providing military equipement, the same goes for Lebanon and Syria were Armenian lobby is pretty strong. Most experienced Armenian troops back in 92 were trained in Lebanon. Lately it was even reported that president of Lebanon had a meeting with the ministery of foreign relations of NKR. Lebanon is one of the few countries having direct contact with NKR. Look I agree with Turkey giving aid to Azerbaijan and maybe even with Israel cuz Jews and Azeris have always been close (although this military aid is still based on your personnal experience). About Russia, you know aswell as I do that Russia sold arms with 50% discount to Armenia and that Armenia received $1 billion in arms for free in the beginning. Its so secret that Russia is the main sponsor of ethnic unrest in Caucasus, all the ethnic unrest in Georgia is all sponsered by Russia and same goes for NKR. You also need to state which Arab nations gave military aid to Azerbaijan, remember Iran and Afghanistan are not arabic countries and not the entire arabic alliance gave aid to Azerbaijan.
- Another thing is your very own article says that Azeri soldiers were mostly teenagers and were very barely trained to wage war, but yet in the Nagorno-Karabakh war article it states that Azerbaijan had a greater military budget and numerical superiority. One of the main problems of Azerbaijan army was that there was a lack of personnal. Baku87 11:53, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
- Well its not really based on my "own ideas", which I don't think really makes any sense. I'll be more than happy to include other nations aiding Armenia so long as you provide the proof for it. I took out Iran when i realized how much of a neutral role it took part in the war, asides from offering refuge for Azeri refugees. Iran provides economical aid to Armenia, but those deals came much later, after the 1988-1994 period which is where the article mainly focuses on. I also know and acknowledge that many Armenians fought in Bourj Hamoud during the Lebanese Civil War and also fought the Phalangists and Israeli invasion force in 1982, this is where they their learned their skills. But, that doesn't necessarily mean the government of Lebanon provided the support and trained them does it? Monte Melkonian, a commander I cite in the article was an Armenian fighter in Lebanon but not a contracted soldier in the Lebanese army, Armenians chose whether or not to go to Lebanon; the government of Lebanon didn't choose to send them there did it, putting Lebanon there is misleading. The same most probably applies to Syria. Afghanistan's Mujaheed rebels were shuttled from Afghanistan to Azerbaijan with full compliance and knowledge of the Afghan government. If Lebanon keeps up diplomatic relations with the NKR, then we can include that on the NK page, not on the template since such an issue is so specific that it'll clutter up the page.
- Also the template focuses on military aid, not humanitarian which would make the list maybe 3 times as long. I know Russia aided Armenia, but it also aided Azerbaijan for its own little games of keeping a balance in the Caucasus. I provided some evidence that even officials from Baku were even saying they were recieving support munitions from Baku. I know, I know, their not Arab countries, I'll try to find some better evidence, if not, I'll remove them.
- Well if you look back in the article, I say many Armenians were placed into tanks or armored vehicles or helicopters with little to no basic training in them. I know this happend to Azerbaijan later on in 1993-1994 but this was not the case in 1991-1992. Azerbaijan did have a greater budget of money to throw around because of its rich petroleum fields. Also, Azerbaijan's population was nearly 8,000,000, twice that of Armenia's at that time. Karabakh's population was 150,000. So if we do the the math, it makes sense that Azerbaijan had more men than Armenia and Karabakh combined. I really don't find any contradiction there. Perhaps there was a lack of willing persons to go fight but Armenians were always characterized as the underdogs since their population was low and that their only trading partner at that time was Iran and more or less Georiga.--MarshallBagramyan 18:44, 22 June 2006 (UTC)
- Look you said yourself about Lebanon and Syria that the government didnt support Armenia and yet you add Afghanistan to Azerbaijani list, you said yourself that Mujahadeen were fighting. Either we add Lebanon and Syria to Armenian list of remove Afghanistan from Azerbaijani list, personnal I think we should keep it more realistic and less official. Cuz in official terms there was never a war. I have added Lebanon and Syria to Armenian list.
- And back then it was very hard for Azerbaijan who had 5 different presidents in just 2 years to get some investement in oil and make some profit of it. There was absolut no stability and thats something that is required for a country to make profit of its oil. So if you think that because Azerbaijan had oil it means it had a larger military budget then the military budget should be rechecked with some real citations. Baku87 11:10, 24 June 2006 (UTC)Baku87
- Because the Mujahadeen were fighters from Afghanistan sent at the behest of the Afghan government. If war was to break out in Nagorno-Karabakh today and some Armenians living in Great Britain were to travel to enlist in the Armenian military, does that mean the government of Great Britain supports Armenia? Of course not. Armenian fighters living in Lebanon and living in Syria traveled to Armenia to fight in Karabakh. Is Jordan or Syria supporting the Iraqi insurgency? From the looks of it, no, they are not but still several hundred Arabs volunteer to serve in it. That doesn't mean their governments are supporting it does it? The government of Lebanon and government of Syria did not tell anyone in their country to go and fight in Karabakh. If so, then we would be seeing thousands of Arab fighters on the Armenian side. If you can find some proof if either government sent material aid such as weapons, tanks, jets to Armenia, I'll add them in there. But adding those two nations because several Armenian fighters went to fight there implies the governments of those two nations sent weapons and arms to Lebanon. I need the proof to put it there.
- Well apparently Russian and Ukranian pilots were paid very nicely while fighting for the Azeris, $5,000 rubles a month including an additional $100 in American or European hard currency for traveling around town and paid ford housing for their families. Here's an excerpt from the article I cited:
- "They were promised a $5,000 salary plus $100 spending money per month and an apartment anywhere they wanted in the former Soviet Union."
- I know of the political turmoil in Azerbaijan but obviously the government spend all that money from its oil revenues thinking that it would make a lot of money off of it. Compare it to Armenia and its budget? Who supported Armenia financially back then? Iran Russia, and perhaps Georgia. Azerbaijan was quickly becoming a beacon to Western oil developers who even hired American military veterans to train the Azeri army. Maybe its profits weren't that great, but it threw around money quite carelessly and much much more than the Armenian government which was suffering from a blockade and near political and economic isolation. I'll check back my sources but I also want you to help me prove that such support was arriving from either Lebanon or Syria.--MarshallBagramyan 18:17, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
- Mujahadeens are or were not govermential forces, they were based on various tribals and groups. The CIA World Factbook confirms this here is a citation of the military branch:
- Military branches: NA; note - the military does not exist on a national basis; some elements of the former Army, Air and Air Defense Forces, National Guard, Border Guard Forces, National Police Force (Sarandoi), and tribal militias still exist but are factionalized among the various groups
- I think we should keep Lebanon, Afghanistan and Syria because this is after all more realistic.
- Also what is Italy doing in the political leaders part? Are you sure Italy played a big enough role to be added to that list? Baku87 18:07, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough, they'll stay. Mario Raffaeli, the Italian, was the head of the OSCE's Minsk Group for a brief period of time. I figured he deserved some mention but since you mentioned it I'm reconsidering how much of a role the guy played, for the most part he seemed uninterested from the get-go so he might get booted off the list.--MarshallBagramyan 02:49, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- I never heard of Mario before and I dont think he belongs in this list. If we would add this kinda people to the list then we should also add politicians from USA, Turkey and more. Thats why I think we should remove him or else it would get really huge. Another thing isnt it possible to merge the article; History of Nagorno-Karabakh (1918-1923) into the main article of; History of Nagorno-Karabakh. Its a real small article and it would be better if it would be merged into the main one. Baku87 13:29, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- Ya, let's just remove him; adding him means adding people like Matthew Bryza...in which practically no one has ever heard of. I think the the History of Nagorno-Karabakh can actually be expanded quite a great deal which is one of the reasons I made it. But after I'm done adding to it and I see its quite short or its having neutrality errors and the like, I'll consider a merge.--MarshallBagramyan 15:59, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
- I'm not so sure about Lebanon and Syria, especially the latter as they don't even recognize the Armenian Genocide. Also, didn't Greece give Armenia aid during the war? I'm not sure. -- Clevelander 01:29, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
- No only after the cease fire treaty Greece started to military support Armenia, perhaps you mean economic aid thats possible but we shouldnt include economic aid though, the list would be endless. Baku87 18:15, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
- Notice that I also added "economic" to "military aid" in my last edit. Also, Baku, you haven't proved that the countries of Lebanon and Syria actually contributed to Armenian war effort in Karabakh. It's well-known that Iran gave aid to Azerbaijan as well. -- Clevelander 18:26, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
- We shouldnt include economic aid, the list would be endless.Baku87 06:23, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
Improving the appearance
- Nice idea but it would mean a lot of work cuz every picture has its own licence Baku87 15:38, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Although me and MarshallBagramyan discussed about the military aid during the conflict it seems that Clevelander disagrees and continues on to put his own personal version above the rest.
First off we should keep this on military aid no humanitarion, who knows how many countries gave humanitarian aid during the conflict, the list would be endless.
Second Iran was pro-Armenian and anti-Azeri during the conflict so it would have aided Armenia instead Azerbaijan, lets not forget this isnt a religion based war. The rest with Azeri aid I can agree. Now lets move on to Armenian aid. If Afghanistan is added to Azeri list then Lebanon and Syria should also be added to Armenian list, Muhjedin were not govermential troops and neither were the troops from Lebanon and Syria who supported Armenia. Please before any major edits take place lets solve this minor problem. Baku87 18:14, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
- There is a big difference there buddy. They were Armenians, the mujahedin were not Azeris. If so then we can also add the United States and Canada etc. under military aid to Armenia because some Armenians from there served in Karabakh. That's retarded.--Eupator 18:26, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
- Baku, time and time again, we have asked you to support your claims with proof that indeed the governments Lebanon and Syria were aiding the Armenians militarily and time and time again you have not done so. The same goes for the irregulars from Syria and Lebanon - you have yet to provide sources for that information as well. Your claims would also need to be verfied by independent sources and as far as I know, there aren't any that support your assertions.
- Also, during the Karabakh war, Iran was indeed an ally of Azerbaijan. It was "competing" to be an ally of Azerbaijan and its well-known that they aided the country militarily during the conflict. Aside from providing them with equipment, they helped train the Azeri army, they conducted military exercises as a warning to Armenia and they hosted (and continue to host) refugee camps for Azeris.
- Its cordial relations with Armenia and its present tensions with Azerbaijan came about later. The cause for the latter stems from disputes over the Caspian Sea. Even then, Iran continues giving some amount of aid to Azerbaijan (they have just recently begun shipping gas to Nakhichevan). -- Clevelander 19:07, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
- Clevelander so far in this talk page you only asked me once to give you the links to my edits (so there is really no need to start off with; time and time again..) But for some reason you feel that you are not required to provide any links and can just make edits without discussing in the talk page.
- Turkey trained and still trains Azeris troops, Iran provided for refugee camps in Iranian territories for Azeris but didnt give any military aid to either sides, if you dont agree then provide some sources which confirm that Iran trained and provided military equipment Azeri troops.
- Anyways I'll work on those sources confirming Syria, Russia and Lebanon giving aid to Armenia but then I want you to get me some sources confirming Israeli, Afghan, Turkish, Iranian and Russian aid to Azerbaijan. Does this sound reasonable to you? Baku87 22:17, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Fine with me, I'll send you a check for a 100 dollars if you find a source saying Syria or Lebanon provided military aid to Armenia.--Eupator 22:32, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
- How's this for proof, Baku?:
- Increasingly desperate Azerbaijan, facing a new drive by Armenian separatists based in this mountain city, has sent barely trained teenage recruits to quell the upheaval it has suffered since the Soviet Union's collapse two years ago, Western diplomats say. The recruits, some reportedly as young as 16, are part of an unconventional army that has included Afghan mercenaries and U.S., Iranian, Russian and Turkish trainers. It appears, so far, to have held back the latest Armenian offensive.
- San Francisco Chronicle (pre-1997 Fulltext)., Apr 23, 1994. pg. A.11
- At the same time, Iran was conducting military maneuvers near the Nakhichevan Autonomous Republic in a move widely regarded as a warning to Armenia. Iran proposed creation of a twenty-kilometer security zone along the Iranian-Azerbaijani border, where Azerbaijanis would be protected by Iranian firepower. Iran also contributed to the upkeep of camps in southwestern Azerbaijan to house and feed up to 200,000 Azerbaijanis fleeing the fighting.
- Azerbaijan: A Country Study: Efforts to Resolve the Nagorno-Karabakh Crisis, 1993, The Library of Congress  -- Clevelander 23:14, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I strongly feel that Monte should be listed under USA. He spent 4 years in Armenia/Karabakh, and was clearly born, raised, and by citizenship, from the USA. He also spent a good deal of time in Iran, Lebanon, etc. So I think listing him under the Armenian flag is a bit misleading when you have the Russian and Soviet flags as well.... --RaffiKojian 12:20, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
- Melkonian was not a representative of the US military or government. Opposed to that, there are both provable peacekeeping operations and assertions of military operations by entire USSR/Russian units in the N-K conflict. I moved him under "Armenia." Similar in role, I added Shamil Basayev to the Azerbaijan section. --Petercorless 12:39, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Pakistan and Israel
- Both Israel and Pakistan might have sold weaponry to Azerbaijan. So does Russian and Turkey. And Ukraine. But it shouldn't be called military aid because it ain't. Military aid is when one state transfers weaponry to another state without receiving financial reward from it. So, Israel, Pakistan, Russia and Turkey should be deleted from the Military Aid to Azerbaijan section. The only aid Turkey has provided is supply of training officers, although it can be classfied as aid to. But the rest will need to be removed. Otherwise, China, Greece, France, etc. will have to added under Armenia too. Tuscumbia (talk) 21:10, 14 December 2010 (UTC)
Military aid to Azerbaijan:
- Chechen Republic of Ichkeria