Template talk:Navbox currency symbols

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Regular letter currency signs[edit]

Some currency signs are defined as a regular (pre-existing) letter. For example, the Guatemalan quetzal is latin "Q", and is formally used by Banco de Guetemala.

But Eyesnore has removed this

once, es: Basic letters are not special currency symbols and
twice, es: What only belongs here are currency symbols that are Unicode characters other than the basic Latin alphabet.

I object to the removal, and to the logic behind it. Whether the sign is a regular letter or a special sign is not relevant for inclusion. The navbox aims to show all existing currency signs: these all belong here. Also, Unicode is not defining those, just representring those. Unicode is not the judge in here. The Reader must can use this navbox to find each and any currency sign. (Maybe the editor is confused witrh the wrong entrance: "List of all non-regular currency signs as defined by Unicode"? This list should be elsewhere, if at all.)

(BTW, another flaw in this disapproved logic is the exception for Latin letters, but not non-latin letters. Why would that be? And does this logic accept "Pts"? Anyway, this is all moot). -DePiep (talk) 09:46, 4 March 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

@DePiep: Using your logic, "Bs." (bolívar), "R$" (real), Q (quetzal), "S/" (sol), "zł" (złoty), "Ft" (forint), "Kč" (Czech koruna), "kr" (krone, krona), "DM" (Deutsche Mark), "Fr" (franc), and many others must all be included in the navigation box. Eyesnore 14:52, 4 March 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes, these should be in there too (assuming these are correct). Good catch. Do you agree? -DePiep (talk) 15:45, 4 March 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Main use of the navbox is: a reader sees/knows some currency sign, then should be able to find the link/article from here. Missing signs would make this less optimal. -DePiep (talk) 15:52, 4 March 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Eyesnore:: So, making the listing complete, including Latins, is OK? -DePiep (talk) 02:26, 6 March 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@DePiep: It means we have to add every currency symbol that was ever used to the navigation box. It is found at Currency symbol#List of currency symbols currently in use. Lead section of the Currency symbol Wikipedia article reads "A currency symbol or currency sign is a graphic symbol used as a shorthand for a currency's name, especially in reference to amounts of money." Eyesnore 04:56, 6 March 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That would be the principle yes ... The list has some 116 signs (including the extra rupiahs). Plus some 41 historical ones. Currently this template has 41 signs. I'll prepare a version in the sandbox, see what we can do. -DePiep (talk) 15:10, 6 March 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Could be acceptable if we organise them: group by continent, or by Latin/non-Latin origin? -DePiep (talk) 15:10, 6 March 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Just adding my support for DePiep's logic. It is hardly a huge burden. My preference would be for Current Latin-based, Current non-Latin, historic Latin, historic non-Latin. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 17:11, 6 March 2020 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Signs and abbreviations[edit]

Just coming back to this, it remains important to distinguish between currency signs – symbols that are formally designated as such or are widely recognised as representing that currency – and commonly used abbreviations. For example, the Egyptian pound has no designated currency sign but the abbreviations LE, £E and ج.م are commonly used, sometimes concurrently. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 11:42, 2 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Latin-based symbols vs. other?[edit]

Consider: we split the "current" list into two: Latin based and non-Latin based.

฿ ₵ ₡ ¢ Cifrão $ ₫ € ƒ ₣ ₲ ₭ ₦ ₱ £ Rp ₨ ₸ ₮ ₩ ¥
රු ૱ ௹ 円 元 圆 圓 ﷼ ៛ ₽ ₹ ֏ ₴ ₾ ꠸ ₪ ⃀ ৳ ₺ ₼ ⃀ ৳ ₪

This would help the reader to recognise & find signs they look for. DePiep (talk) 15:56, 1 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Makes sense to me. Support. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 11:30, 2 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Split criteria should be: visually alphabetic, not by background. So "$" counts as "S", irrespective of its history. "£" for"L", reight? DePiep (talk) 19:36, 3 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
.. and group the second row by script. For starters. DePiep (talk) 19:44, 3 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Of course. Not that it especially matters, but £ is an L. The crossing line means abbreviation. Pepys just wrote l as in l20.--John Maynard Friedman (talk) 13:14, 4 August 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Will have to research the scripts for each; basically from {{List of currency symbols}} I think. -DePiep (talk) 05:52, 6 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Remove cryptocurrency symbols[edit]

Cryptocurrencies are not currencies. Ponzi schemes maybe but not currencies. I propose that the be removed from the template. John Maynard Friedman (talk) 20:26, 15 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I agree they should be removed. There are around 9,000 cryptocurrencies which makes them unsuitable for a navigation box in any case. DRMcCreedy (talk) 21:40, 15 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • In the light of the edit summary associated with Roostery123's removal of the {{relevance inline}} tag ("cryptocurrency is a type of digital currency so it is relevant enough to be in this template"), the fact that these systems call themselves "currencies" does not make them currencies, which is why they have a distinctive name and distinct article. Cowrie shells are also a medium of exchange: are they to be listed as currencies too? if not, why not? [I have reinstated the tag pending conclusion of this discussion.] In the spirit of compromise, I could accept a "see also list of cryptocurrency symbols". --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 11:01, 16 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Keep them in.
replies: They are not "currencies" because they call themselves so. They are because they are.
Noteworthy currencies (of those 9k) are, well, noteworthy. And no, a ponzi scheme is not a currency definition. -DePiep (talk) 11:52, 16 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
A Big Bytheway: the question "Is crypto a real currency?" should be on a different place, say Talk:Currency. Or promoted widely. DePiep (talk) 12:39, 16 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I didn't realize there was a discussion about this, sorry!
Anyways, my opinion is to only have bitcoin, ethereum, and possibly dogecoin in the cryptocurrency section. They are a well established forms of cryptocurrency, and others are not notable enough to be in the template. Besides, the sources in Cryptocurrency say that cryptocurrency is a currency. Roostery123 (talk) 12:35, 16 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
How would you define the criteria for inclusion (notable and well established)? A market cap limit? An age/time since introduction? Usage (number of transactions or size of transaction)? Without an objective criteria it's endless edits to add or remove symbols. DRMcCreedy (talk) 15:42, 16 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

CCs with unicode code points only?[edit]

I guess my proposal seems unlikely to gain consensus so I suggest we don't waste any more time on it.

So may I revise my proposal? How about limiting the CC line to only those CCs that have a dedicated Unicode code-point? (which is what we are doing with the real conventional currencies). --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 15:18, 16 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I like this criteria. It's straightforward. DRMcCreedy (talk) 15:42, 16 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Oppose. It should be about currency sign, full stop. Not about their reception or acceptation or spread. Think Cifrão, som, ₹ after initial decision.
Subsequent question: why would we need any such criteria? -DePiep (talk) 15:54, 16 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Rats, I forgot about the Cifrão, but it is a clearly notable exception and merits a waiver. (INR has a code-point, I don't follow your point?) So do we clog the template with 100s of makey-uppy or repurposed 'symbols' for marginally notable CCs and thus give them an unwarranted credibility? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 17:22, 16 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
₹ after initial decision: after the decision by India State Bank or so, Unicode indeed speed-added (an x.1.0 version IIRC), but it took many years before it was effectuated in the fonts. Anyway, Unicode does not decide what is a (notable) currency. Then, you descrition of the template with "any" sign is hard to imagine. So again, why a criterium? (When answered, the criterium will show itself).
Note that this page is about signs. Whether the currency is notable, is not the issue here. FYI, here are more: Currency symbol § List of currency symbols currently in use.
-DePiep (talk) 23:17, 16 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think we better first reorganise this navbox in its presentation of the signs. Order by (related) script? By continent? Separate fractions? Add textual info? I can agree that durrent list is too indiscriminately long for nav'ing purposes. I also think that removing signs is not the solution. What inspiration does the lists give us?-DePiep (talk) 08:26, 17 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Keep: John Maynard Friedman reason for removing this from the template on the basis that Cryptocurrencies are Ponzi schemes - there is a section which discusses Crypto Ponzi schemes (see also Category:Crypto Ponzi schemes) and none of the symbols listed in this box are discussed as ponzis. The template is about "currency symbols" - these cryptocurrencies have valid unicode symbols. I do think there should be a guideline on what cryptocurrencies should be included into this navbox though e.g. if they have an article on Wikipedia or if they have a market cap of over $1bn to ensure only generally notable symbols are included. GR86 (📱) 20:21, 10 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Agree. About the symbols-as-symbols, not a judgement on their currency. Nor a selection by technical status. King Reader expects to find them in here, and rightly so. DePiep (talk) 09:55, 12 October 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Talk about this navbox going on[edit]

{{See Talk:Currency symbol § Infobox will get out of control unless it has a policy setting. -DePiep (talk) 07:43, 29 September 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Microlawyering out of the main picture[edit]

@John Maynard Friedman: [1]: please refrain from wikilawyering or definitionlawyering for this navigation box. WP:LEASTSURPRISE also pertains to missing, but expected stuff. " / / " is a symbol that belongs in here, bluelinked. Now take the Reader Seat and edit from what you'd expect to find. DePiep (talk) 07:07, 9 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]

To accuse me of wikilawyering is rather extreme. If you were arguing for retention of 円, I might have understood as it an edge case. But £sd is just a notation, the currency symbol was and still is £, it is not historic. The slashes in £a/b/c are just level breaks. If a currency ceased use of decimal subunits, would you consider it appropriate to include decimal point in the historic list? The UK used to use midpoint as a decimal separator: should that be included?
If you feel that strongly about it, I won't pursue the debate but from a UK perspective its inclusion looks rather odd and misinformed. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 09:06, 9 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
BTW, the slash notation is still used in East Africa. See Shilling. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 17:27, 9 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The slash notation is symbolic (unambiguously even, as slash is not a word), and used to write amounts (ie quantities: number × unit). As I wrote, a Reader (me) expected it to be in here, how else could a Reader find it? Buried in pound history? nondecimal pond history? (iow, requiring pre-knowledge to know where to search ... ouch). All this is Reader Minding When Editing, and I am disappointed that you keep finding non-intuitive outside reasonings to conclude that something does not belong in here.
In your 17:27 reply here you are doing the same: repeat your marginal reasons, without digesting the Readers Expectation. And then, concluding with "X is used in E. Africa" without immediately adding that one ... DePiep (talk) 03:17, 10 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]
But slash is still not a currency symbol, any more than a decimal point is. In £xx/yy/zz, it is just a vigesimal separator or a duodecimal separator, just as . (or , and ·) is a decimal separator. In East Africa, the slash is a decimal separator: for example, a price might be given as 2/50 (which means two shillings and 50 cents, with the local currency prefix understood), or even 250/= (which means two hundred and fifty shillings exactly). The slash is not a currency symbol, nor is the equal sign: both are merely the conventional notation. So short of adding a new line to the navbox for decimal separators, I can't see any home for it.
Coming back to your first question, I sympathise with the principle that navboxes exist to help people find stuff, which is why I restored the logogram for the Japanese yen. But for the life of me I can't see why anyone would expect to find £sd here. Maybe I'm too close to it: much as I've already said, from my UK perspective its inclusion looks confused or misinformed. If your perspective differs, go ahead and restore it. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 16:31, 10 November 2022 (UTC)Reply[reply]