Template talk:Nazism sidebar

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
WikiProject Politics / Fascism (Rated Template-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This template is within the scope of WikiProject Politics, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of politics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
 Template  This template does not require a rating on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This template has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This template is supported by Fascism task force.
 

Revert-warring[edit]

Hopefully we can put an end to this farce. Long ago there was discussion on this talkpage to the effect that a "logo", or emblem, would be obviously more appropriate in this role, than an SVG representation of a flag. Flags are fundamentally physical pieces of fabric: what we use on Wiki are representations of flags, not actual "flags". Emblems and logos, however, are specifically intended for use on two-dimensional media like this (e.g. [1]). -- Director (talk) 17:43, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

The simple emblem is obviously more appropriate. --18:21, 21 June 2015 (UTC)Tuvixer (talk)

RfC: Swastika size in infobox[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
There is a clear consensus for reducing the size of the swastika in the template (and this was already done). Armbrust The Homunculus 09:41, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

I propose scaling the size of the swastika in the infobox down slightly from 120px to 100px. I believe that for a lone symbol, the image is slightly too big and draws attention away from the articles that it appears in. By scaling it down slightly (yes, it may not seem like much but it makes a huge difference), aesthetics are greatly improved. I have placed the template to the side of this discussion for visual aid: the top infobox has the swastika scaled to 100px, and the bottom is scaled to the current 120px. What are your thoughts? Nick Mitchell 98 (talk) 09:11, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

  • Support - But why are we RfCing this? It seems like you could be bold here. Did someone oppose this change? NickCT (talk) 02:31, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
    • @NickCT: I did try to scale the image down several times, but it was reverted by DasReichenz who called it an "unnecessary change". This is why I came here. Nick Mitchell 98 (talk) 10:40, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
      • @Nick Mitchell 98: - Ah Ok. Guess you're following dispute resolution then. Frankly, I'm not sure what DasReichenz's issue is here. He doesn't appear to be an active editor. If you like we could simply force the change. NickCT (talk) 14:50, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Neither - restore previous logo - summoned by bot. Why was the previous logo (shown above) replaced with a simple swastika? I don't feel this is correct as the swastika is not a purely Nazi symbol. The previous logo was clearly Nazi and clearly Third Reich. I don't see a previous discussion about the logo on this talk page. МандичкаYO 😜 05:00, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
    • @Wikimandia: The plain black swastika rotated 45 degrees (as it appears on Nazi flags) is in fact the Nazi version, so in this case, it is a Nazi symbol (original variations are the ones that I believe you are referring to). I'm not sure when the arms of the Nazi Party was replaced with a swastika (it definitely was not me), but the Nazi swastika is a better representation of Nazism as the arms of the Nazi Party restricts it to the Nazi Party only when this a template about an ideology, not a political party. Also, the Nazi swastika alone is more recognisable than the party arms. Nick Mitchell 98 (talk) 10:40, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
      • @Wikimandia and Nick Mitchell 98: - I think Mandia wants to know why we're not using the Parteiadler. Frankly, that seems like a better option to me too. NickCT (talk) 14:52, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
        • Hmmmmmm.... Looks like this edit switched from parteiadler to swastika. Not sure why, given that consensus for the parteiadler seemed to develop in the section above. NickCT (talk) 14:56, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
          • I strongly support returning to the Parteiadler, as not only was this image changed without any kind of discussion, the "square" dimensions of the swastika will not allow it to be as wide as the Parteiadler without also increasing its height (as you can see from this RfD). Additionally a "plain black symbol" is merely the same symbol (especially as it's actually a character in Asian alphabets) and to people who consider the swastika a holy symbol, its rotation does not mean much. [Please see https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IndusValleySeals.JPG these artifacts], purposely displayed at an angle at the British Museum. МандичкаYO 😜 21:01, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
            • I suspect that the issue may be that the Parteiadler is specifically associated with German Nazism, while this infobox covers Nazism more generally and globally. AdventurousSquirrel (talk) 22:12, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
    • Support For what its worth - I agree with your justification for resizing it. I say go for it. Comatmebro User talk:Comatmebro 16:25, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
    • Support - resizing. Kierzek (talk) 17:06, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
    • Support - resizing. For reasons already stated by the original editor. -Xcuref1endx (talk) 15:18, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Support resize, square and diamond shapes are tricky, and the smaller one does look better. I would also support restoring the previous image (File:Parteiadler der Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (1933–1945).svg) per Мандичка. This template is used at Swastika, and something about seeing it placed in a series with templates for Buddhism, Hinduism, and Jainism strikes me as off. That article explains that it's a widely used symbol with a long history, so using it starkly here seems... disrespectful, I guess. I don't think the current image is likely to cause confusion, exactly, but it would be more neutral to use a symbol that's specific to Nazism, which still features the swastika, as acknowledgment of those other uses. Grayfell (talk) 07:16, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Support resizing the swastika for the reasons outlined by Nick Mitchell. Aesthetically, and out of respect for the fact that the swastika is not exclusively a Nazi symbol, I would prefer using the Parteiadler, but I'm not sure if it is too associated with the German Nazi Party rather than with Nazism as a whole, so I'm neutral with respect to restoring the original image. Graham (talk) 14:54, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Support resizing - The smaller one looks better and is less shouting. - Kautilya3 (talk) 01:25, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Support resizing and reversion to previous image, per Grayfell and Мандичка; it's actually offensive to Buddhists and several other Asian religious groups, and the Navajo and several other Native American cultures, among others, to forcibly associate the bare swastika/fylfot symbol exclusively with naziism. Meanwhile, making the symbol extra-huge serves no reader-helpful purpose, and actually reduces the utility of the infobox. Use a smaller symbol, and one tied exclusively to naziism, like File:Parteiadler der Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (1933–1945).svg.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  00:21, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Support resizing - The smaller one looks better. Borsoka (talk) 17:48, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
I resized it per clear consensus on that issue above and believe this should be closed at this time. Kierzek (talk) 21:49, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Do we need a new RfC on the Hakenkreuz or Parteiadler?[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
There is a clear consensus for not overruling the previous RfC and changing the symbol.– Nick Mitchell 98 talk 07:24, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

There is disagreement as to what "symbol" should be used for the template. A couple of editors at this point in time seem to be going back and forth, to a degree, in changing what is used for display. Even the RfC of August/September (above) discussed what "symbol" should be used, besides just the size of the Hakenkreuz (Swastika). I would like to know other editors thoughts before opening yet another RfC. Consensus can be found without automatically resorting to that. Cheers, Kierzek (talk) 12:45, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

While a party in dispute as well, I don't believe any change needs to be made to this version. Aesthetically pleasing, historically significant, and currently has the consensus of the original RfC pertaining to the icon that should be used. The only reason a move was made away from it was the reckless editing by Director, which seems to be a trend among most of his work. So, I would say, no RfC needed, since him blatantly ignoring the first consensus probably indicates what he would do to another one, sans punishment. DasReichenz (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:55, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

First off - this looks like a sock of Dannis243, who's been pushing for Nazi Party symbols in the sidebar for ages. I've reported the matter, requesting checkuser and a block if positive. Secondly, even if its not a sock, the user must STOP pushing his change through edit-warring. The simple Hakenkreuz has been up for months, and at least two users (myself included) oppose Dannis234/DasReichenz in his edit. Moreover, up until this point he has ignored the talkpage completely.

Thirdly - I'm the guy who originally introduced the Parteiadler back when. Let me make a few points in that regard:

  • Back then we didn't have a proper Hakenkreuz file (if I recall only Luftwaffe insignia was available), it was basically not a contender for that reason.
  • I myself sort of thought at the time that the image may be offensive to some people, but have since realized that the Nazi swastika is specifically #1 black, #2 rotated 90 degrees, #3 facing right (99% of the cases). Plus, many other prominent swastika symbols have additional markings, or are curved to one degree or another. That considered - no other notable swastika symbol, that I know of, could be confused with it. What we have here is very much a specifically Nazi swastika.
  • Further, when you get right down to it, whatever the symbol's other uses (and I am very much aware of them) - the Nazis did use it. Its their symbol. Theirs among others, but unfortunately theirs also nevertheless.
  • As was correctly pointed out, the Parteiadler is specifically a symbol of the National Socialist German Workers' Party. The thing has the German eagle perched on it. Its not a symbol of Nazism in general, but its not even a symbol of German Nazism as a whole (there were other German Nazi parties).
  • Finally - the Parteiadler uses the swastika too. So if someone takes offense over it, and they don't care that its rotated, black, and facing right... they probably won't care that it has a bird over it either...

I was wrong about this. -- Director (talk) 10:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Well, the Swastika was around for thousands of years before the Nazi version was adopted. With that said, it was the official emblem of the NSDAP when rotated as if in perpetual motion. And as you know, the eagle holding the wreath with the swastika represented the party and Nazi Germany depending which shoulder (or way) the eagle was looking. In the end, what is important is consensus and I hope more of the editors who voiced an opinion in the recent RfC will state their's herein. Kierzek (talk) 17:53, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes, it was around for thousands of years. If Campion (2014) is to be believed, the earliest swastikas can be found in Ukraine, carved into mammoth tusks 10,000 years ago by Proto-Indo-European speakers - or "Aryans" in pre-WWII terminology. According to the (still rather popular) Indo-Aryan migration theory, Indo-European languages and symbols (Sanskrit) were brought into the Indus valley by Aryan invaders/migrants around 2000 BC. My point being that its exactly its ancient use, its supposed use by "primordial Aryans", that led to its use as an "Aryan"-supremacist symbol. These are not unrelated aspects, and the thing wasn't exactly a random choice. And yes, the German eagle there represents specifically the Party, the German Nazi Party. I don't think its a good idea, as per above. -- Director (talk) 19:46, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for the comments thus far; if no one else states a position then the last consensus reached will stand. Silence can speak volumes. Kierzek (talk) 14:16, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
You may claim all you wish that I am a sock of another user, Director, but you are simply annoyed that your pointless edits that go against previous consensus are routinely thrown back in your face by someone who actually cares about representing history as it should be, whether that is by including the defining symbol of the party that created Nazism or displaying the correct color of the logo on that party's and indeed state's flag. The Swastika is too ambiguous by itself for the task of defining Nazism, and as talk page consensus was previously reached on this issue, another more appropriate logo was chosen. Stop reverting other users when your "new consensus" does not exist, only the previously standing one, which chose the Parteiadler. I'm not sure why you are so flung into a rage over simple matters of aesthetics, historical importance and obeying previous precedent. If this is how you will continue to conduct yourself, forcing your edits through, then I believe we do need another RfC. DasReichenz (talk) 17:19, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
The previous consensus, as far as I can see from the RfC, is to have a smaller swastika symbol. That we've got. And as regards previous discussions, I think you'll f#4646ind I'm the "author" of the Parteiadler's use here. Without my pushing it, it wouldn't have been up there in the first place. -- Director (talk) 22:17, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
You present no counterargument to my claims. With this, I will assume you admit your revert-warring is unjustified and childish in nature. Perhaps you would like me to upload my own logos and then make them the icon on this template and it's non-sidebar equivalent? I will hope such recourse will allow me to keep this template historically accurate while maintaining it's good aesthetics. You are very vocal in the community about having my identity cross-checked with Dannis, then going out and claiming I use broken English and "rage" all the same. Such accusations are unwarranted, unsubstantiated (as was mentioned in the thread you created concerning this) and immature, and I ask that you halt your further attacks or attempts to have me removed from the community, simply because you dislike my edits. Feel free to continually pressure administrators to see if Dannis and I are the same person, via cross-checking edit logs and IP address - we are not. I don't know who Dannis is, nor am I a sock of any other user, nor would I need to make a sock account to preform the edits I do. Please stop reverting this template until a new RfC unless you cannot provide reason that utterly refutes the first RfC's discussion of what symbol to use. Once again, in addition to this, please stop harassing the community in your quest to get me banned. Thank you, DasReichenz (talk) 04:04, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Firstly, you do not have consensus for the Parteiadler. The recent RfC, it seems to me, came out in favor of a smaller simple swastika.
Secondly, I did present my argument in my first post here: namely that the swastika, alone, is by far and away the most recognizable symbol of Nazism as an ideology. That's an obvious point and it isn't even debateable. And further - that the Parteiadler is a symbol, not of Nazism, but specifically and explicitly of a defunct historical political organization. Even Nazis wouldn't call it a symbol of Naism.
I also posted counterarguments to your claims, to the point that the swastika used here isn't "ambiguous" at all. I thought so myself previously. That's why I originally thought of using the Parteiadler, and pushed it through. I was wrong. The fact that you did not read or reply to the aforementioned points is more indicative of your immaturity than anyone else's.
Your arguments are also just kind of weird. Symbols do not "define" things - that's not the task of the symbol here. And the German Nazi Party as a whole didn't invent Nazism: Hitler did. Or alternatively some other people did. Not the NSDAP as an organization. The swastika used is an element taken from the latest flag of Nazi Germany, and is therefore certainly "historical".
As regards whether you are a sock, if the CU turns out negative you will have my apology. However, as things stand now, I must ask you to STOP edit-warring for your version, and leave it with the smaller swastika that the latest RfC came out in favor of. Once I'm sure you and Dannis aren't the same guy (sorry, but it looks like it), I'll post an RfC. Can you be patient and stop restoring (my own) previous Parteiadler version for a few days? -- Director (talk) 04:35, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
I believe that once the "sock investigation" is finished, that should help the situation. Depending on the result, will help determine if another RfC will be necessary. Kierzek (talk) 13:28, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
If an RfC is actually called once you receive the evidence proving you incorrect (again) as to whether or not I am a sock / related to Dannis, I will spend the time writing a detailed explanation on why your points do not chalk up to a simple swastika as the template logo. For now, in the limited timespan I have to actually talk here, I will confine my objection to simply one minuscule aesthetic point for now: if you are going to keep the swastika by itself on this template in the interim, at least make it one that is the correct color (fully black) or I will do so for you. Thanks, DasReichenz (talk) 01:35, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

It is my understanding that the RfC of August/September 2015, supersedes the RfC of April/May 2014. In this case, it is DasReichenz and Dannis243 that are ignoring the relevant consensus and are the ones that are "blatantly ignoring the first consensus", not Director who is attempting to fulfill his duty as an admin and keep to consensus by reverting their edit wars. So until a new RfC is completed with consensus for changing back to the Parteiadler, can we please keep the status quo established by the most recent consensus with the Nazi swastika in the infobox?

Additionally, the Parteiadler that DasReichenz and Dannis243 are attempting to reinstate is a symbol used exclusively by the National Socialist German Workers' Party. However, while Nazism originated in Germany, it is not an exclusively German ideology as it was adopted by many other former political parties around the world during the interwar and WWII periods. Even the flags of the NSDAP and Nazi Germany do not have either their respective eagles on them, they are designed with a simple Nazi swastika as the only distinguishing feature. If we were to use the logic of these two users, then the template for the Fascism sidebar should use the symbol of the Italian Fascist Party instead of the simple Fasces that are currently on the template. And the argument that the swastika has been around for centuries and it cannot be used in the template is invalid as this particular design is a specifically Nazi swastika (thick black, rotated 45 degrees, "clockwise-facing", etc.). Yes, the swastika in general has been used for centuries before the Nazi period, but designs have varied over the centuries.

One final point, how is it DasReichenz that you only now have an issue with the use of the plain Nazi swastika when it has been in use on this template since 27 April 2015? Even when I originally began scaling down the size of the image, you reverted it to its larger size and had no interest in the Parteiadler until now, after you lost the RfC in my favour of scaling down the image size. I'm just curious as to your thought pattern and why this issue only matters now to "someone who actually cares about representing history as it should be" instead of before my RfC was even created.
Nick Mitchell 98 (talk) 06:26, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Update: Apologies, I mistakenly thought that Director was an admin when is in fact not. Correcting error in my post. Nick Mitchell 98 (talk) 05:42, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

Nick you raise some valid points. I agree that at this point since it has turned into a "slow-motion" edit war, that the last RfC consensus should take presentence and priority. BTW, neither Director, nor I are admins. But one does not have to be to perform many tasks and functions on Wikipedia. The current Hakenkreuz should remain until consensus has changed, if it in fact does. Kierzek (talk) 12:40, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
It seems the matter is settled...for now; the last RfC should stand and consensus be followed accordingly. Kierzek (talk) 12:39, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Punk and heavy metal[edit]

The side-bar, under related topics, contains two curious entries:

  • Nazi punk
  • National Socialist black metal

I would like to remove them since they don't seem to belong in the infobox. Are there any objections? K.e.coffman (talk) 20:35, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

IMO, anything not directly related to the German Nazi movement should be removed, but I wonder how others feel. Associating people, groups or movements with the contentious category (which is what the sidebar does) is questionable, again in my opinion. Collect (talk) 13:12, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
Since there's one up vote and no down votes, I will go ahead and remove. K.e.coffman (talk) 19:48, 22 December 2015 (UTC)
I just saw this topic and agree with the removal. Kierzek (talk) 17:38, 14 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Removal I agree, its removal is appropriate. -Xcuref1endx (talk) 18:41, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Rockwell[edit]

I saw a previous conversation in the archives about the inclusion of Lincoln Rockwell. No consensus was gained there, so I am reopening the conversation. He was a leader of a small fringe political entity in the United States that had virtually no authority or influence. He should not be included in the sidebar. -Xcuref1endx (talk) 17:34, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 February 2017[edit]

I want the Swastica removed. Everybody knows the Nazi symbols and this inclusion is superfluous. It appears to be there for fans. 87.113.6.55 (talk) 02:41, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

I rather agree with this. I have made it considerably smaller than it once was, since the large size seemed gratuitous to me, and related to the fact that many Nazi-related people articles have very large images of their subjects in their ledes, much larges than the generally accepted 225-250px in the majority of other articles. These large images appear to be an effort to be iconic. In any case, I don't think te sidebar would suffer without the swatiska. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:05, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
IP: Its not there for "fans", don't be ridiculous. It is there for id. use, as images are used for the same purpose for other organization templates. I do agree there is no need for it to be "large" in presentation. But with that said, I don't have a strong feeling about keeping it at this point; I always thought the Party Eagle was better for use, even if not technically as accurate. Ping to @Director: on this. Kierzek (talk) 12:58, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
I think the party eagle would be less provocative. Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:37, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
Nazism is associated with swastikas much more than with any other kind of symbol or image. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 08:58, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
That is true, but there's no requirement that a sidebar have a graphic at the top, so if the swastika is the only graphic that's going to be allowed, I'd prefer nothing. Beyond My Ken (talk) 11:35, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Thank you very much for your suggestion! Since there is disagreement here, then a consensus has not yet been reached. In my humble opinion, I would agree with FreeKnowledgeCreator that the most-recognized symbol of Nazism, the swastika, should stay in both the sidebar and the navbar. There are other discussions and RfCs on this talk page that also should be considered.  Paine Ellsworth  - put'r there – 05:50, 13 February 2017 (UTC)
A new RfC should be opened to resize, change, or remove the image. The current version is based on community consensus from the the RfC and discussion above (i.e. RfC: Swastika size in infobox and Do we need a new RfC on the Hakenkreuz or Parteiadler?). — Godsy (TALKCONT) 03:04, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I've WP:BOLDly reduced the image size to 60px. There is absolutely no visual reason for it to be any larger than that. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:30, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

I've reverted the bold change. By the statement "this *is* reduced" in your edit summary, which seems to be a reference to the closing statement of the RfC, one could equally justify changing the image size to 1px. It's unfortunate that the wording of the closure was so vague; the RfC was clearly to change the size of the image from 120px to 100px. 60px is too small. The 87px was just about right; However, as I said before, I think an RfC is the best road to seek a change. — Godsy (TALKCONT) 08:46, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
@Beyond My Ken: I have seen and read this talk page, and I see no justification or consensus to set the image to 60px. — Godsy (TALKCONT) 15:58, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
If you want to return it to 87px, that's fine with me - but what's your justification for that? You're taking a hard line on 100px because of the RfC, yet you think 87 (which I did) is OK, but not 60. I'm telling you that 60 is visually fine, anything smaller is too small, anything much larger (like 100) is promoting, not illustrating - and I'm saying that from trying numerous sizes out. If you'd like to start another RfC, that's fine. If you don't, I will do so this afternoon when I return from work. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:07, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
I personally think 87 is "visually fine", but I've never attempted to justify it. Yes, I'm taking a hard line on 100px, based on community consensus from the RfC. One could say for example, "I'm telling you that 10 is visually fine, anything smaller is too small, anything much larger (like 17) is promoting, not illustrating - and I'm saying that from trying numerous sizes out." with just as much credence, because it is a personal opinion. — Godsy (TALKCONT) 16:32, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
Yes, except you would be laughed off the page for voicing such a ridiculous opinion. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:43, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

RfC: Swastika size in infobox (2)[edit]

WITHDRAWN:

Withdrawn by Beyond My Ken, with intent to restart. See Threaded discussion. ―Mandruss  23:46, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposals:

  • A. The swastika at the top of the sidebar should be reduced to 60px.
  • B. The swatiska should stay at 87px, which it has been at since December 25, 2016.
  • C. The swatiska should be returned to 100px, which was the result of the earlier RfC.
  • D. Remove the swastika entirely.

Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:47, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Survey[edit]

  • A: Reduce to 60px - The purpose of the swastika at the top of the sidebar is illustrative. It should not be so large as to appear to be promoting Nazism or neo-Nazism, but not so small that it looks ridiculous. (See the sidebar on theimmediate right, in which the swastika is at 60px. Under it is the swastika at 87px. 120px and 100px can be seen in the RfC above.) The reduction in the last RfC from 120px to 100px was a good start, but it was not enough, and we've actually been living with it at 87px since June 31, 2015 December 25, 2016, when I reduced it to that. When another editor put the swastika side-by-side with "Nazism", that was visually unbalanced and not very attractive stylistically, so I reverted the change, but I was struck by the fact that the swastika at 60px, which that editor had reduced it to, looked very good: not too big, and not so small as to be silly. So I played around for a while with numerous sizes, and I determined -- at least to my own satisfaction -- that 60px was a very good size for it to be. Anything much smaller looked wrong, and larger than 87px looked promotional to me - and now that I've seen it at 60, even 87 looks large. Thus I suggest that we leave the swastika at 60px. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:00, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
  • I can live with removing the swastika entirely, if that is the consensus. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:15, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
@Beyond My Ken: We have not been living with it since June 31, 2015: Your change to the size on July 31, 2015 lasted less than a week and was not re-implemented until December 25, 2016. — Godsy (TALKCONT) 01:49, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
  • My mistake, and my apologies. I'll make the correction - but please do not change the wording of an RfC started by another editor. Note "An editor has requested comments..." in the box above.Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:00, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
  • D (remove swastika). Failing that, A: reduce the size to 60px, vs 87px. K.e.coffman (talk) 20:19, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
  • B - My first preference is 87px. After that, I'd prefer any size option presented or replacing the swastika with the flag of the German third reich (as proposed below) to removing an image from that position entirely (C > A > Flag). In the event of no consensus, the status quo ante to the last consensus based version is a restoration to 100px.
— Godsy (TALKCONT) 01:49, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
  • B - seems to strike the right visual balance with the title, similar size to the symbol in the Template:Communism_sidebar. --Nug (talk) 09:29, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
  • A: reducing the size to 60px is satisfactory. It still identifies the subject without any distraction. Kierzek (talk) 13:06, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
  • A for reason given by Kierzek, large enough to be identifiable, not so large as to distract or dominate. This is one of the most chillingly recognisable symbols in the world and does not need to 'shout' its presence. Pincrete (talk) 22:58, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
  • D - remove swastika: the flag displaying the exact same symbol is just below: undue weight IMHO. If this does not pass, A: reduce the size to 60px. Absolutely ridiculous to have anything larger when all text is "hidden". Maineartists (talk) 23:48, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
  • D or none of the above - I could be mistaken, but it technically shouldn't be a fixed size at all. Sizes will always look different on different monitors/browsers/user-settings, which is a good thing, but fixed-pixel sizes override that. MOS:IMGSIZE and WP:IMAGESIZE explain. This advice is very widely ignored, but the MOS gives a compelling case against a fixed size. Having an RFC for a specific pixel width is creating a future hassle for anyone who wants to 'fix' it by switching to a scaling factor. We could figure out a percentage instead, but seeing the comparison, I think it's more distracting than necessary. I don't strongly object to a small image for navigation (similar to A), but figuring all that out seems pointless if we're just going to remove it anyway. Grayfell (talk) 00:12, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
    @Grayfell: The template uses File: syntax for the image, so it already supports scaling the size via |upright= (verifiable using Preview). Except for registered users who have changed their user size preference: 60px = |upright=0.27, 87px = |upright=0.4, 100px = |upright=0.45. ―Mandruss  02:00, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
Oh, that's convenient. Thanks. Grayfell (talk) 02:07, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
Just for the record, if the consensus is 60px, I have no problem it with being instituted as upright-0.27, or if it's 87px as 0.4 etc. etc. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:10, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
My experimentation was faulty. To make |upright=factor work, you have to add |frameless, otherwise it ignores |upright=factor and displays the image at its native size, 471px. ―Mandruss  07:23, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
  • A - It doesn't need to be any larger than necessary for the half-blind to discern its shape fairly clearly. But I support scaling as |upright=0.27 per WP:IMGSIZE. (Or you could round down to an even |upright=0.25, either way—the difference is an insignificant 4.4 pixels for the vast majority of users.) ―Mandruss  02:17, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
  • A - Although a 60px full flag would be better. Bertdrunk (talk) 10:53, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
I agree: a flag (which is shown directly below the infobox on the page itself).Maineartists (talk) 12:45, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
  • D (remove). What the reason for a double distraction (Hakenkreuz + upright)? Carlotm (talk) 23:53, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Two or more images with similar elements in the same template is not uncommon: The communism sidebar contains the hammer and sickle and a red star with a hammer and sickle (the example above) and the liberalism sidebar contains two of the same yellow flag. — Godsy (TALKCONT) 13:46, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

Threaded discussion[edit]

  • I'd go farther and say None of the above (no swastika) may be preferable. Could this option be added to the RfC? K.e.coffman (talk) 20:09, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
  • I have now presented the full range of options. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:56, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
  • A comparison of the three image sizes from small to large (i.e. 60px, 87px, and 100px) side by side:
60National Socialist swastika.svgNational Socialist swastika.svgFlag of the German Reich (1935–1945).svg
— Godsy (TALKCONT) 07:09, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
  • I added a demonstration of how it would look using the flag, above and below. I haven't thought much about it yet but the flag looks best at the moment. Johnuniq (talk) 06:19, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
According to the caption at Nazism#Etymology, that's the flag of Nazi Germany aka the Third Reich, contrasted to that of the Nazi Party. The latter - Flag of the NSDAP (1920–1945).svg - seems more appropriate. Less important, it's an aesthetic improvement as it centers the circle on the flag. At this point I could support it if it were on the table, subject to educated arguments against it. A dash of color helps, again a matter of aesthetics. I could go up a notch on size, to Flag of the NSDAP (1920–1945).svg. But it isn't on the table. What think you BMK? ―Mandruss  22:33, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
Yes, I would be OK with that. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:04, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
@Johnuniq: If you concur that the Nazi Party flag is more appropriate, I will add options E: Flag of the NSDAP (1920–1945).svg and F: Flag of the NSDAP (1920–1945).svg and change my !vote to F. Then we probably should ping all participants. ―Mandruss  23:15, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
@Mandruss: Things are getting so confused, that I would rather that this RfC be closed, and a new one be opened with the options you mention, with all participating editors pinged or notified on their talk pages. I think that would result in an RfC that would be much easier for someone to judge consensus on when being closed. (I certainly wouldn't know how to close this one at the moment.) Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:30, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
@Beyond My Ken: I agree, cleanliness is next to Jimboliness. You're free to withdraw this and restart as you see fit. Let me know if I can help with that. ―Mandruss  23:32, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
OK, let me see if I can think this through a bit more thoroughly so we don't end up in the same place again. For one thing, with the multiplicity of sidebar representations that would be needed, I think they should be moved to another page. In the meantime, if you want to start a new RfC, you can take this as my permission to close this as withdrawn. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:40, 13 March 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RfC: Swastika size in infobox (2, take 2)[edit]

Consensus is to use the image specified in option E in the infobox.Winged Blades Godric 16:31, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposals:

  • A. The swastika at the top of the sidebar should be reduced to upright=0.27 (60px)
  • B. The swastika should stay at upright=0.40 (87px), which it has been at since December 25, 2016
  • C. The swastika should be returned to upright=0.45 (100px), which was the result of the earlier RfC
  • D. Remove the swastika, and do not replace it with another graphic
  • E. Replace the swastika with the Nazi flag at upright=0.27 (60px)
  • F. Replace the swastika with the Nazi flag at upright=0.40 (87px)
  • G. Replace the swastika with the Nazi flag at upright=0.45 (100px)


Here is a comparison in isolation of the 6 graphic choices:

60     National Socialist swastika.svg     National Socialist swastika.svg
Flag of the NSDAP (1920–1945).svg     Flag of the NSDAP (1920–1945).svg     Flag of the NSDAP (1920–1945).svg


You can also see what they look like in a sidebar at Template talk:Nazism sidebar/Sidebar choices.

I will be contacting all editors who previously participated.

Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:34, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

I believe that I have now notified all editors who took part in the previous aborted RfC. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:47, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

Survey (2, take 2)[edit]

  • E (flag at 60) Second choice: D (no graphic); Third choice: A (swastika at 60) - Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:51, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Please note that after some consideration, I've changed my preference from "Flag at 87" to "Flag at 60". Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:16, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
  • E Although I think it would be better to decide for the swastika or the flag first. Bertdrunk (talk) 02:36, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
  • E The last infobox demo above uses E and it is visually the best. Second preference D because the plain swastikas are too ugly, and the larger sizes are unduly confrontational. Regarding confrontational, it's not that I'm concerned about upsetting a delicate reader, it is just that an infobox is not the place for a large in-your-face decoration. Johnuniq (talk) 02:43, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
  • E However, the flag of the "Nazi Party" not Nazi Germany / the Third Reich; re: discussion / difference being placement of the Swastika within the flag (see above). Maineartists (talk) 11:53, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
  • I've changed the displayed flag to that of the NSDAP per the discussion below. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:14, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Any of the five image choices presented above are fine with me, so I'm effectively at an Oppose D. I do not find any of the arguments presented so far to remove the image convincing. If the flag is selected, I much prefer the centered Flag of the Nazi Party per the reasons presented by Mandruss in the prior RfC. — Godsy (TALKCONT) 11:57, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
  • The flag displayed is now the NSDAP flag. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:14, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
  • E, (edit conflict), but using the NSDAP flag and not the national flag. Second choice: A. Third choice: D. Kierzek (talk) 12:13, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
  • A, or E, but if E, centred (NSDAP flag?), it's simply an identifier and I don't think the background colour either adds or detracts from identification (unlike 'red flag' for Socialism), neither does it add or detract much 'visually' IMO, but as others seem to like the added colour, fine. Pincrete (talk) 18:01, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
  • D -- no image. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:28, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
  • E - This is primarily aesthetics to me, but there is nothing wrong with looking good. To my mind, some graphic is visually better than no graphic, and this is the best of the graphic options. As I've said earlier, a dash of color (besides the ubiquitous blue) improves the aesthetics, further narrowing the choices to E-F-G. I favored F in comments in the earlier RfC, but I am changing my mind after comparing the mockups. E properly subordinates the graphic to the heading "Nazism". Use |frameless|upright=0.27 please, per WP:IMGSIZE. ―Mandruss  03:56, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose D, prefer E, the NSDAP flag is preferable, why hide a symbol that as been historically associated with Nazism for nearly a century. --Nug (talk) 11:06, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
  • D, no symbol (see below). Carlotm (talk) 03:15, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
  • E the swastika on its own has other older uses, using the NSDAP flag makes it clearer as the source of Nazism, and the sizing is right compared to the heading. Oppose D - this is not de WP. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 08:39, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
  • B, oppose D, E, F and G: I reiterate one of the points made in the original discussion that I took part in back in 2015, the swastika as depicted in this instance (clockwise thick black lines, 45 degree tilt) is a symbol of Nazism as a whole. The use of the NSDAP flag or the flag of the Third Reich immediately restricts us to German Nazism. Yes, the German form is the most commonly known, but it was not the only form as shown in the list of historical movements and parties abroad of Germany. See my comment below for more clarification. – Nick Mitchell 98 talk 11:07, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
  • C Honour the previous RfC. What's changed? The swastika in this form is a recognised symbol of Nazism. This is an article about Nazism. Why try to water it down? --Pete (talk) 20:30, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
  • I wouldn't say anyone is trying to "water it down", but rather to find a balance between presenting what you rightfully call the recognized symbol of Nazism, and the response that many people have to a symbol they find deeply offensive for personal, philosophical, historical and moral reasons. Also, in defense of those who !voted for removal, the word itself, "Nazism" is quite clear and unambiguous, so whether there needs to be a symbol at all could be considered simply a matter of design, and not necessarily of content. If so, the question becomes does such a consideration - visual design - worth the offense ceated by the symbol? I think you can argue both sides of that question, but that it's not nearly as straight-forward and clear-cut as you present. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:42, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
  • This is an encyclopedia we are building and it is going to have some things people (including myself) find offensive; but, that does not mean said things should not be included in some way, all things considered; otherwise, it becomes a slippery slope of inclusion and exclusion and we are to present things in WP:NPOV, whether we personally like something or not. Kierzek (talk) 21:01, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
  • That's true, but we can certainly present the offensive symbol in as non-offensive a way as possible, and still have it perform its function. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:05, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
  • I agree with that. Kierzek (talk) 21:16, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
  • C per Pete above. Further we are about Truth, not feelings. The size should be identical to other symbols' sizes. NPOV requires that we do not discriminate against something because it is offensive.--Iloilo Wanderer (talk) 04:25, 12 April 2017 (UTC)
  • Actually, WP:NPOV says absolutely nothing to that effect; and we are not about "Truth" (especially with a capital "T"), we are about verifiability - which has absolutely nothing to do with this, since there's no more or less "truth" in a big swastika compared to a small swastika. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:19, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Threaded discussion (2, take 2)[edit]

@Beyond My Ken: Nice job on the restart. Please re-read my comment at 22:33, 13 March 2017 (UTC) in the just-closed RfC. Do you disagree that the Party flag is a better choice than the Reich flag? IMO the latter needn't be on the table (and who needs 3 more options anyway?). ―Mandruss  05:57, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

To be honest, I didn't see any difference between the NSDAP flag and the Reich flag, and I just assumed that everyone was offering up the smae flag as the flag option. I absolutely missed your comment on the party flag centering the symbol on the flag -- sorry about that. Is that simply an artifact of our image, or was that actually the case?
In any event, here's what I suggest we do: proceed with this RfC as it's currently set up, and then if the Reich flag is the preferred option, we can discuss (hopefully without needing an RfC) which of the two flags is the better option. How does that seem to you? Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:35, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
BTW, intellectually, the party flag makes more sense considering the subject of the sidebar.Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:37, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
@Beyond My Ken: Is that simply an artifact of our image, or was that actually the case? I know nothing, but the caption at Nazism#Etymology reads: "Flag of the Nazi Party, similar but not identical to the national flag of Nazi Germany (1933–45)." As I can see no difference besides the centering, I assumed that the centering was the difference referred to in the caption, implying that it is not accidental. BTW, intellectually, the party flag makes more sense considering the subject of the sidebar. I agree, that's why I suggested using it instead of the Reich flag. Do you think a significant number of editors will care about that minor distinction, so we shouldn't make the change now? But I'm easy. ―Mandruss  09:19, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
@Mandruss: Well, I don't think that would be a problem, but I've been horribly wrong before, which is one reason I'd rather take this conservatively and go step by step. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:23, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
@Beyond My Ken: Ok. ―Mandruss  09:26, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
The centering was the difference and I agree the NSDAP flag should be used over the national flag. Kierzek (talk) 12:09, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
OK, I've had a think, and given the obvious preference for the centered NSDAP flag, I'm making the change. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:10, 14 March 2017 (UTC)

The proposed symbols seem to be inappropriate, the last three in particular. This hybrid infobox, a mixture of ideological and historiographical exposition, should not overlap into Nazi party matter and symbols, for the latter has its own infobox with party flag and all. Consider also its context, when Nazism infobox follows right away its Nazi party sibling, with the resulting plethora of symbols so much loved, I presume, only by a nostalgic, a-critical minority for whose predisposition we should not care much (WP:FRINGE). Moreover the infobox depicts among the main people related to Nazism Houston Stewart Chamberlain, who was already dead in 1927. The infobox lists also other extreme right parties, which had their own symbols. All in all, my advice is to abandon the current absent-minded discussion and to choose to avoid any symbol for there isn't one representing the infobox content wholly and properly. Carlotm (talk) 03:15, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

I think you are confusing Nazism, which is the ideology and practice associated with the 20th-century German Nazi Party, with Neo-Nazism, which consists of post-World War II social or political movements seeking to revive the far-right-wing tenets of Nazism. Given that the German Nazi Party created Nazism, it is wholly appropriate to use the Flag of the Nazi Party in relation to Nazism. --Nug (talk) 08:06, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
You could make a similar argument against the symbols used in many, if not all, of the ideology sidebars. Therefore, it is not a reason to remove the image from this one individually, but rather something that should be addressed by a larger proposal at the proper venue if desired.— Godsy (TALKCONT) 18:20, 16 March 2017 (UTC)
I agree with Carlotm, the current swastika shown in the infobox is a symbol of Nazism as a whole, the NSDAP and Third Reich flags only relate to German Nazism, which was not the only form of the ideology as shown in the list of historical parties and movements outside of Germany.
Also, the current size of the swastika is consistent with other ideological emblems in sidebars (Communism, Fascism, etc.). – Nick Mitchell 98 talk 11:07, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
The physical size is only a small part of the issue. Glancing at the current {{Nazism sidebar}} (option B) and comparing it with {{Communism sidebar}} shows that the icon in the former is very much more prominent. The large and heavy swastika is too in-your-face purely in a typographical sense and without reference to its cultural background. Johnuniq (talk) 02:13, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

Houston Stewart Chamberlain[edit]

Editor Robinson98354‎ removed Houston Stewart Chamberlain from the list of "People" in the template, on the grounds that he wasn't a Nazi. I think an argument could be made that the list of "People" is not necessarily a list of Nazis, but a list of people associated with or important to the Nazi movement. Still, I do take Robinson98354‎'s point, so I did not restore Chamberlain to the "People" list.

Chamberlain was, however, a strong influence on the Nazi ideology, so I added him to the "Ideology" list, an edit which Robinson98354‎ reverted with the same comment, that Chamberlain was not a Nazi. In this case, though, I think he is dead wrong. Since Chamberlain was a significant influence on the Nazi ideology, his inclusion on the "Ideology" list is completely justified, and should not be removed.

Here's what a number of sources have to say about Chamberlain's influence on the Nazis and the connection between them:

Kershaw Hubris:

  • "[Concerning] race theory ... Hitler drew heavily for his ideas from well-known antisemitic tracts such as those of Houston Stewart Chamberlain" (p.151)
  • "[A]t the end of September 1923, Hitler had met Wagner's son-in-law, the now aged racist writer Houston Stewart Chamberlain, who subsequently wrote Hitler an effusive letter, saying that he had 'transformed the condition of his soul at one fell swoop', and 'that Germany should have brought forth a Hitler in the time of his greatest need' was proof of its continuing vitality as a nation." (p.660 n.166)

Shire The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich

  • "[I]t was on the Third Reich, which did not arrive until six years after his death but whose coming he foresaw, that [Chamberlain's] influence was the greatest. His racial theories and his burning sense of the destiny of the Germans and Germany were taken over by the Nazis, who acclaimed him as one of their prophets. During the Hitler regime books, pamphlets and articles poured from the presses extolling the "spiritual founder" of National Socialist Germany. Rosenberg, as one of Hitler's mentors, often tried to impart his enthusiam for the English philosopher to the Fuehrer. It is likely that Hitler first learned of Chamberlain's writings before he left Vienna, for they were popular among the Pan-German and anti-Semitic groups whose literature he devoured so avidly in those early days. Probably too he read some of Chamberlain's chauvinistic articles during the war. In Mein Kampf he expresses regret that Chamberlain's observations were not more heeded during the Second Reich." (pp.108-109)
  • "Chamberlain became a member of the budding Nazi Party [!] and so far as his health would permit began to write for its obscure publications. ... This remarkable Englishman's seventieth birthday, on September 5, 1925, was celebrated with five columns of encomiums in the Nazi Voelkischer Beobachter, which hailed his Foundations as the 'gospel of the Nazi movement' ..." (p.109)

Reuth Goebbels

  • "After meeting Chamberlain in Bayreuth, twenty-six-year-old Goebbels wrote euphorically in his diary that Chamberlain was the 'pathbreaker,' 'the preparer of the way,' the 'father of our spirit.' (p.53)


I could check more sources, but this should be more than sufficient to show that Chamberlain belongs in the "Ideology list, and perhaps should even be restored to the "People" list, as he was, it turns out, a member of the party. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:33, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: this make sense. As an aside, the editor in question was (most likely) a sock for a banned user. K.e.coffman (talk) 22:07, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
@K.e.coffman: Yes, I considered that possibility. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:04, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

The stupid emblem change[edit]

Lets use this, and make it really small too. Just so we're sure everybody knows we're against Nazism. Nazism. is. bad. :D
What do we use as a symbol of Communism? A red star and the hammer-and-sickle, naturally! Not a comically small flag - a symbol, an emblem.

The recent change to the image was stupid. I reverted it because its stupid :). It objectively looks bad, and it objectively makes no sense.

  • The image is ridiculously small. You realize different people use different resolutions, right?
  • That's the flag of the National Socialist GERMAN Workers' Party. There's other Nazis, both historically and right now.
  • Its (a representation of) a flag, not an emblem, so in terms of basic semiotics its usage as such is wrong.

Arguments against the previous image are stupid. That's not any old swastika - that's a NAZI swastika. Black, facing left, rotated 90 degrees (spinning). In the English-speaking world it is THE widely-recognized symbol of Nazism, on its own without any accouterments. That's all that matters with regard to its propriety.

Please folks... leave this messed-up issue alone. Don't virtue-signal by making the image stupidly small, or demonstrate pan-cultural ubersensitivity by talking how the swastika has different meanings... The Nazis used it (and not just in their flag!) - its representative of their ideology as well as other things. -- Director (talk) 13:48, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

Bloody swastika for the bloody Nazis, standard 100px width. Don't over-analyze, don't write essays, don't cast votes. It. is. ridiculous.
(I feel really bad for starting this all those years back...) -- Director (talk) 14:12, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
That's your opinion. The change represents the consensus opinion of a number of editors as determined by an RfC. That's how Wikipedia works. Please do not change it again. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:15, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
The choice of image is blatantly idiotic. That's an objective fact, not opinion. And don't patronize me, I know how Wikipedia works - its not by voting. There can be no valid argumentation for a tiny little German flag (used 1933-35) to represent Nazism as an ideology. Might as well use a tiny Soviet Union flag as the symbol of Communism. Does anyone here know anything about basic semiotics? -- Director (talk) 12:39, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

RfC: Should we keep the small flag as the template image?[edit]

Withdrawn by OP. ―Mandruss  15:25, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposing we restore the previous consensus symbol (the 90 or 100px swastika). Or a framed swastika symbol:

26B National Socialist swastika.svg

I call them Option 26a and Option 37-9. I don't like the current tiny icon:

  • Firstly, its a flag representation. In terms of simple semiotics, we should use an emblem in this context if possible.
  • Secondly, its ridiculously small. I myself can just barely make it out on my work computer. (Maybe I'm getting old, but even if so lets not be ageist on our project ;))
  • Thirdly, that was the flag of Germany between 1933-35. It represents a country first and foremost.
  • Ignoring that, its also a flag of the German Nazi Party. There's plenty other Nazi fistmagnets, both historically and right now.

I started messing around with the image here in ages past, and I'm really sorry for that. I think we should just stop and leave it be. I don't understand what arguments prompted folks to just slap the German flag onto there, but I can't express how weird I find the current state of affairs. Thanks for your time, and again, apologies for opening this up... but this little tiny flag thing just looks terrible to me, as well as objectively inappropriate. -- Director (talk) 13:15, 10 May 2017 (UTC)

Survey, May 2017[edit]

  • Oppose - Leave the icon as per the results of the previous RfC. Beyond My Ken (talk) 13:47, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
Its.. not an "icon". Its the ex-German flag. -- Director (talk) 13:51, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
Please do not take the first step into WP:BLUDGEONing by answering every "Oppose" vote; you know exactly what I mean by the use of "icon": the image at the top of the template. Beyond My Ken (talk) 13:53, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
Not a native English speaker, I apologize. -- Director (talk) 13:56, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose The current icon is the most accurate. Are we supposed to pretend that Naziism didn't start under the Third Reich? Come on now. Rockypedia (talk) 18:09, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
Well no, no it didn't.. its vice versa :). *bludgeoning intensifies*
I see your point, though, but I think you're missing mine: it did start in Germany, but then so did Communism. My point is that we should use a more universal symbol than a very specific historical flag. Also that we shouldn't use a flag as such either. Also that its too small... Sigh.. -- Director (talk) 22:29, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Support a size increase and either image. The current image is quite a bit smaller than images used in other Category:Political ideology templates sidebars, and I've yet to read a compelling reason why it should be. The swastika is the main symbol of Nazism, and the one on the flag is simply too small a portion of the image. — Godsy (TALKCONT) 22:51, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose A large and well-attended RfC has recently closed and it is a disruptive waste of community time to attempt a re-run, particularly one starting with "I don't like the current tiny icon". Johnuniq (talk) 01:58, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Procedural oppose -- an RfC on this topic just closed; suggest revisiting in about 6 months if there are still concerns at that time. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:14, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
I didn't see it! I come back in a month or so, riding along, when suddenly - [2].
Come to think of it.. could it have been deliberate? Or at least an oversight? Shouldn't participants in the previous consensus have been notified? I mean.. I'm the guy that introduced the previous icon. In principle, this is no way to build a lasting consensus. -- Director (talk) 11:02, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
There is no requirement to notify participants of past RfCs -- and you have no special status because you first brought up the subject of changing the icon -- but you were not deliberately excluded, so please AGF about that. 15 editors managed to find their way to the latest RfC, as opposed to 10 in the first RfC. If you were editing, and had the template on your watchlist, you should have checked in to see what the activity was all about. Please don't make this personal: I initiated the last RfC, and I don't have any animosity toward you, I assure you. Beyond My Ken (talk) 16:30, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
You will not fool me, I have reported you for failure to notify. To the police (for attempted fraud). Consider yourself my personal enemy - and watch it - I do have Special Status. -- Director (talk) 20:53, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
Nothing "personal", man! :) And I didn't mean to imply its "required" (technically nothing is). But, as I said, it is kind of a useful (and courteous) thing to do if you want to build a lasting consensus. You get input from users you know are interested.. Dunno. And this icon just stinks. I mean really, really stinks. -- Director (talk) 21:02, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
I think you should look at the previous RfC a little more closely, and then extrapolate what the close would have been had you been specially notified and !voted in it. Looking at the !votes, I don't think yours would have made a difference at all, because it really wasn't all that tight. Sorry, but them's the facts. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:58, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose - given the reasons were stated and discussed in two recent RFCs; we went through this matter, yet again. It is too soon to re-visit the matter where a consensus was reached. Kierzek (talk) 18:09, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Question -- is the reference to option "37–9" at the top of the RfC supposed to mean the Bible verse:
Psalms 37:9 "For those who are evil will be destroyed, but those who hope in the Lord will inherit the land"?
K.e.coffman (talk) 23:50, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
I didn't think anybody would get that, bravo!! I was mainly making light of the alphabet of options in the preceding RfC, but that seemed fitting given the subject. Not religious myself (wouldn't want to give the wrong impression), but there was a rather nasty period during the war... -- Director (talk) 00:19, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
It might be advisable to avoid Bible verses; this reminded me of a past ANI discussion: Possible hard-right propaganda on a user page, which resulted in a user's permanent ban. I'd be more careful and less suggestive; pairing a swastika with the verse about "evil" being "destroyed" struck me as rather off. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:34, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
I'm an atheist. I vote Social Democrat. Obviously the "evil" are the goddamn Nazis! Fucksake.. what is wrong with people on this talkpage?? Things getting "personal", reported for "legal threats", now this. People, its a stupid image! -- Director (talk) 12:45, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
You ever consider that maybe the problem is "Not a native English speaker", i.e. in your understanding and feeling of the idioms of English, and not in the people who are responding to your messages? Humor is hard in any medium, and even harder in a text-only medium with no other cues to help out. Add to that a perhaps incomplete feel for the idiom, and you've got a recipe for misunderstanding. My suggestion is that you forgo humor, satire, irony, and being cute, and just say what you mean in blunt direct sentences which are difficult to misunderstand. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:45, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
Nah. I'm hilarious, you just don't get it.
My English is actually better than that of most native speakers (it pretty much has to be given my job and where I live). I'm rated C2 (or 8+/CPE). My understanding of English idioms is damn-near complete. I regularly read and discuss scientific literature in English, in fact I rarely ever read anything that's not in English (given the obscurity of my native tongue). I spent rather long periods in the US.. My only problem is I was educated in British English, but culturally inundated with American English, so on the fly my spelling kind of switches between the two. I have a distinct American accent; I've been told I sound like a "New Englander", whatever that means exactly (hopefully not Bostonian).
I was kinda being underhanded above. My response was meant to highlight the reasoning for the RfC ("its a flag!"), more than actually correct you in your terminology. I obviously think the point still stands, but my correction as such was unfounded. So I walked back from it using the "no speaky" excuse. Sorry. That's the kind of mental conditioning 10 years of Wikipedia "discussion" gives you.'
Apparently it also may bring you to subtly threaten sanctions in every other post.. and assume people are praising Nazis with Bible quotes. I didn't really reference any damn Bible quote! What's the first "Option" supposed to be? Verse "26a" xD? Never read the thing! Americans and their Bible obsession.. I blame Protestantism. -- Director (talk) 13:38, 13 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose per prior RfC outcome, only 2 months old.
    Re arguments that the current size is too small (not that that needs to be rehashed here), the current size properly subordinates what is essentially a decorative graphic element to the box title. If this principle is violated elsewhere, I suggest proposals for change there, not here. If those proposals fail, that's ok with me per WP:OSE. ―Mandruss  06:10, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
  • Withdrawn, the issue is obviously deemed too early to bring up again. I hope to revisit the matter at a later date. I think we're being too formal about a silly template illustration, and that the current state of affairs is just plainly.. not good, from a representational and functional perspective. But I do respect consensus - like I said at the start, sorry for bringing this up so soon. -- Director (talk) 09:55, 14 May 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.