Template talk:Nazism sidebar

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WikiProject Politics / Fascism (Rated Template-class, Mid-importance)
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Hopefully we can put an end to this farce. Long ago there was discussion on this talkpage to the effect that a "logo", or emblem, would be obviously more appropriate in this role, than an SVG representation of a flag. Flags are fundamentally physical pieces of fabric: what we use on Wiki are representations of flags, not actual "flags". Emblems and logos, however, are specifically intended for use on two-dimensional media like this (e.g. [1]). -- Director (talk) 17:43, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

The simple emblem is obviously more appropriate. --18:21, 21 June 2015 (UTC)Tuvixer (talk)

RfC: Swastika size in infobox[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
There is a clear consensus for reducing the size of the swastika in the template (and this was already done). Armbrust The Homunculus 09:41, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

I propose scaling the size of the swastika in the infobox down slightly from 120px to 100px. I believe that for a lone symbol, the image is slightly too big and draws attention away from the articles that it appears in. By scaling it down slightly (yes, it may not seem like much but it makes a huge difference), aesthetics are greatly improved. I have placed the template to the side of this discussion for visual aid: the top infobox has the swastika scaled to 100px, and the bottom is scaled to the current 120px. What are your thoughts? Nick Mitchell 98 (talk) 09:11, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

  • Support - But why are we RfCing this? It seems like you could be bold here. Did someone oppose this change? NickCT (talk) 02:31, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
    • @NickCT: I did try to scale the image down several times, but it was reverted by DasReichenz who called it an "unnecessary change". This is why I came here. Nick Mitchell 98 (talk) 10:40, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
      • @Nick Mitchell 98: - Ah Ok. Guess you're following dispute resolution then. Frankly, I'm not sure what DasReichenz's issue is here. He doesn't appear to be an active editor. If you like we could simply force the change. NickCT (talk) 14:50, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Neither - restore previous logo - summoned by bot. Why was the previous logo (shown above) replaced with a simple swastika? I don't feel this is correct as the swastika is not a purely Nazi symbol. The previous logo was clearly Nazi and clearly Third Reich. I don't see a previous discussion about the logo on this talk page. МандичкаYO 😜 05:00, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
    • @Wikimandia: The plain black swastika rotated 45 degrees (as it appears on Nazi flags) is in fact the Nazi version, so in this case, it is a Nazi symbol (original variations are the ones that I believe you are referring to). I'm not sure when the arms of the Nazi Party was replaced with a swastika (it definitely was not me), but the Nazi swastika is a better representation of Nazism as the arms of the Nazi Party restricts it to the Nazi Party only when this a template about an ideology, not a political party. Also, the Nazi swastika alone is more recognisable than the party arms. Nick Mitchell 98 (talk) 10:40, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
      • @Wikimandia and Nick Mitchell 98: - I think Mandia wants to know why we're not using the Parteiadler. Frankly, that seems like a better option to me too. NickCT (talk) 14:52, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
        • Hmmmmmm.... Looks like this edit switched from parteiadler to swastika. Not sure why, given that consensus for the parteiadler seemed to develop in the section above. NickCT (talk) 14:56, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
          • I strongly support returning to the Parteiadler, as not only was this image changed without any kind of discussion, the "square" dimensions of the swastika will not allow it to be as wide as the Parteiadler without also increasing its height (as you can see from this RfD). Additionally a "plain black symbol" is merely the same symbol (especially as it's actually a character in Asian alphabets) and to people who consider the swastika a holy symbol, its rotation does not mean much. [Please see https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IndusValleySeals.JPG these artifacts], purposely displayed at an angle at the British Museum. МандичкаYO 😜 21:01, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
            • I suspect that the issue may be that the Parteiadler is specifically associated with German Nazism, while this infobox covers Nazism more generally and globally. AdventurousSquirrel (talk) 22:12, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
    • Support For what its worth - I agree with your justification for resizing it. I say go for it. Comatmebro User talk:Comatmebro 16:25, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
    • Support - resizing. Kierzek (talk) 17:06, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
    • Support - resizing. For reasons already stated by the original editor. -Xcuref1endx (talk) 15:18, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Support resize, square and diamond shapes are tricky, and the smaller one does look better. I would also support restoring the previous image (File:Parteiadler der Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (1933–1945).svg) per Мандичка. This template is used at Swastika, and something about seeing it placed in a series with templates for Buddhism, Hinduism, and Jainism strikes me as off. That article explains that it's a widely used symbol with a long history, so using it starkly here seems... disrespectful, I guess. I don't think the current image is likely to cause confusion, exactly, but it would be more neutral to use a symbol that's specific to Nazism, which still features the swastika, as acknowledgment of those other uses. Grayfell (talk) 07:16, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Support resizing the swastika for the reasons outlined by Nick Mitchell. Aesthetically, and out of respect for the fact that the swastika is not exclusively a Nazi symbol, I would prefer using the Parteiadler, but I'm not sure if it is too associated with the German Nazi Party rather than with Nazism as a whole, so I'm neutral with respect to restoring the original image. Graham (talk) 14:54, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Support resizing - The smaller one looks better and is less shouting. - Kautilya3 (talk) 01:25, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Support resizing and reversion to previous image, per Grayfell and Мандичка; it's actually offensive to Buddhists and several other Asian religious groups, and the Navajo and several other Native American cultures, among others, to forcibly associate the bare swastika/fylfot symbol exclusively with naziism. Meanwhile, making the symbol extra-huge serves no reader-helpful purpose, and actually reduces the utility of the infobox. Use a smaller symbol, and one tied exclusively to naziism, like File:Parteiadler der Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (1933–1945).svg.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  00:21, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Support resizing - The smaller one looks better. Borsoka (talk) 17:48, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
I resized it per clear consensus on that issue above and believe this should be closed at this time. Kierzek (talk) 21:49, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Do we need a new RfC on the Hakenkreuz or Parteiadler?[edit]

There is disagreement as to what "symbol" should be used for the template. A couple of editors at this point in time seem to be going back and forth, to a degree, in changing what is used for display. Even the RfC of August/September (above) discussed what "symbol" should be used, besides just the size of the Hakenkreuz (Swastika). I would like to know other editors thoughts before opening yet another RfC. Consensus can be found without automatically resorting to that. Cheers, Kierzek (talk) 12:45, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

While a party in dispute as well, I don't believe any change needs to be made to this version. Aesthetically pleasing, historically significant, and currently has the consensus of the original RfC pertaining to the icon that should be used. The only reason a move was made away from it was the reckless editing by Director, which seems to be a trend among most of his work. So, I would say, no RfC needed, since him blatantly ignoring the first consensus probably indicates what he would do to another one, sans punishment. DasReichenz (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:55, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

First off - this looks like a sock of Dannis243, who's been pushing for Nazi Party symbols in the sidebar for ages. I've reported the matter, requesting checkuser and a block if positive. Secondly, even if its not a sock, the user must STOP pushing his change through edit-warring. The simple Hakenkreuz has been up for months, and at least two users (myself included) oppose Dannis234/DasReichenz in his edit. Moreover, up until this point he has ignored the talkpage completely.

Thirdly - I'm the guy who originally introduced the Parteiadler back when. Let me make a few points in that regard:

  • Back then we didn't have a proper Hakenkreuz file (if I recall only Luftwaffe insignia was available), it was basically not a contender for that reason.
  • I myself sort of thought at the time that the image may be offensive to some people, but have since realized that the Nazi swastika is specifically #1 black, #2 rotated 90 degrees, #3 facing right (99% of the cases). Plus, many other prominent swastika symbols have additional markings, or are curved to one degree or another. That considered - no other notable swastika symbol, that I know of, could be confused with it. What we have here is very much a specifically Nazi swastika.
  • Further, when you get right down to it, whatever the symbol's other uses (and I am very much aware of them) - the Nazis did use it. Its their symbol. Theirs among others, but unfortunately theirs also nevertheless.
  • As was correctly pointed out, the Parteiadler is specifically a symbol of the National Socialist German Workers' Party. The thing has the German eagle perched on it. Its not a symbol of Nazism in general, but its not even a symbol of German Nazism as a whole (there were other German Nazi parties).
  • Finally - the Parteiadler uses the swastika too. So if someone takes offense over it, and they don't care that its rotated, black, and facing right... they probably won't care that it has a bird over it either...

I was wrong about this. -- Director (talk) 10:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Well, the Swastika was around for thousands of years before the Nazi version was adopted. With that said, it was the official emblem of the NSDAP when rotated as if in perpetual motion. And as you know, the eagle holding the wreath with the swastika represented the party and Nazi Germany depending which shoulder (or way) the eagle was looking. In the end, what is important is consensus and I hope more of the editors who voiced an opinion in the recent RfC will state their's herein. Kierzek (talk) 17:53, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Yes, it was around for thousands of years. If Campion (2014) is to be believed, the earliest swastikas can be found in Ukraine, carved into mammoth tusks 10,000 years ago by Proto-Indo-European speakers - or "Aryans" in pre-WWII terminology. According to the (still rather popular) Indo-Aryan migration theory, Indo-European languages and symbols (Sanskrit) were brought into the Indus valley by Aryan invaders/migrants around 2000 BC. My point being that its exactly its ancient use, its supposed use by "primordial Aryans", that led to its use as an "Aryan"-supremacist symbol. These are not unrelated aspects, and the thing wasn't exactly a random choice. And yes, the German eagle there represents specifically the Party, the German Nazi Party. I don't think its a good idea, as per above. -- Director (talk) 19:46, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for the comments thus far; if no one else states a position then the last consensus reached will stand. Silence can speak volumes. Kierzek (talk) 14:16, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
You may claim all you wish that I am a sock of another user, Director, but you are simply annoyed that your pointless edits that go against previous consensus are routinely thrown back in your face by someone who actually cares about representing history as it should be, whether that is by including the defining symbol of the party that created Nazism or displaying the correct color of the logo on that party's and indeed state's flag. The Swastika is too ambiguous by itself for the task of defining Nazism, and as talk page consensus was previously reached on this issue, another more appropriate logo was chosen. Stop reverting other users when your "new consensus" does not exist, only the previously standing one, which chose the Parteiadler. I'm not sure why you are so flung into a rage over simple matters of aesthetics, historical importance and obeying previous precedent. If this is how you will continue to conduct yourself, forcing your edits through, then I believe we do need another RfC. DasReichenz (talk) 17:19, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
The previous consensus, as far as I can see from the RfC, is to have a smaller swastika symbol. That we've got. And as regards previous discussions, I think you'll f#4646ind I'm the "author" of the Parteiadler's use here. Without my pushing it, it wouldn't have been up there in the first place. -- Director (talk) 22:17, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
You present no counterargument to my claims. With this, I will assume you admit your revert-warring is unjustified and childish in nature. Perhaps you would like me to upload my own logos and then make them the icon on this template and it's non-sidebar equivalent? I will hope such recourse will allow me to keep this template historically accurate while maintaining it's good aesthetics. You are very vocal in the community about having my identity cross-checked with Dannis, then going out and claiming I use broken English and "rage" all the same. Such accusations are unwarranted, unsubstantiated (as was mentioned in the thread you created concerning this) and immature, and I ask that you halt your further attacks or attempts to have me removed from the community, simply because you dislike my edits. Feel free to continually pressure administrators to see if Dannis and I are the same person, via cross-checking edit logs and IP address - we are not. I don't know who Dannis is, nor am I a sock of any other user, nor would I need to make a sock account to preform the edits I do. Please stop reverting this template until a new RfC unless you cannot provide reason that utterly refutes the first RfC's discussion of what symbol to use. Once again, in addition to this, please stop harassing the community in your quest to get me banned. Thank you, DasReichenz (talk) 04:04, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
Firstly, you do not have consensus for the Parteiadler. The recent RfC, it seems to me, came out in favor of a smaller simple swastika.
Secondly, I did present my argument in my first post here: namely that the swastika, alone, is by far and away the most recognizable symbol of Nazism as an ideology. That's an obvious point and it isn't even debateable. And further - that the Parteiadler is a symbol, not of Nazism, but specifically and explicitly of a defunct historical political organization. Even Nazis wouldn't call it a symbol of Naism.
I also posted counterarguments to your claims, to the point that the swastika used here isn't "ambiguous" at all. I thought so myself previously. That's why I originally thought of using the Parteiadler, and pushed it through. I was wrong. The fact that you did not read or reply to the aforementioned points is more indicative of your immaturity than anyone else's.
Your arguments are also just kind of weird. Symbols do not "define" things - that's not the task of the symbol here. And the German Nazi Party as a whole didn't invent Nazism: Hitler did. Or alternatively some other people did. Not the NSDAP as an organization. The swastika used is an element taken from the latest flag of Nazi Germany, and is therefore certainly "historical".
As regards whether you are a sock, if the CU turns out negative you will have my apology. However, as things stand now, I must ask you to STOP edit-warring for your version, and leave it with the smaller swastika that the latest RfC came out in favor of. Once I'm sure you and Dannis aren't the same guy (sorry, but it looks like it), I'll post an RfC. Can you be patient and stop restoring (my own) previous Parteiadler version for a few days? -- Director (talk) 04:35, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
I believe that once the "sock investigation" is finished, that should help the situation. Depending on the result, will help determine if another RfC will be necessary. Kierzek (talk) 13:28, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
If an RfC is actually called once you receive the evidence proving you incorrect (again) as to whether or not I am a sock / related to Dannis, I will spend the time writing a detailed explanation on why your points do not chalk up to a simple swastika as the template logo. For now, in the limited timespan I have to actually talk here, I will confine my objection to simply one minuscule aesthetic point for now: if you are going to keep the swastika by itself on this template in the interim, at least make it one that is the correct color (fully black) or I will do so for you. Thanks, DasReichenz (talk) 01:35, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

It is my understanding that the RfC of August/September 2015, supersedes the RfC of April/May 2014. In this case, it is DasReichenz and Dannis243 that are ignoring the relevant consensus and are the ones that are "blatantly ignoring the first consensus", not Director who is attempting to fulfill his duty as an admin and keep to consensus by reverting their edit wars. So until a new RfC is completed with consensus for changing back to the Parteiadler, can we please keep the status quo established by the most recent consensus with the Nazi swastika in the infobox?

Additionally, the Parteiadler that DasReichenz and Dannis243 are attempting to reinstate is a symbol used exclusively by the National Socialist German Workers' Party. However, while Nazism originated in Germany, it is not an exclusively German ideology as it was adopted by many other former political parties around the world during the interwar and WWII periods. Even the flags of the NSDAP and Nazi Germany do not have either their respective eagles on them, they are designed with a simple Nazi swastika as the only distinguishing feature. If we were to use the logic of these two users, then the template for the Fascism sidebar should use the symbol of the Italian Fascist Party instead of the simple Fasces that are currently on the template. And the argument that the swastika has been around for centuries and it cannot be used in the template is invalid as this particular design is a specifically Nazi swastika (thick black, rotated 45 degrees, "clockwise-facing", etc.). Yes, the swastika in general has been used for centuries before the Nazi period, but designs have varied over the centuries.

One final point, how is it DasReichenz that you only now have an issue with the use of the plain Nazi swastika when it has been in use on this template since 27 April 2015? Even when I originally began scaling down the size of the image, you reverted it to its larger size and had no interest in the Parteiadler until now, after you lost the RfC in my favour of scaling down the image size. I'm just curious as to your thought pattern and why this issue only matters now to "someone who actually cares about representing history as it should be" instead of before my RfC was even created.
Nick Mitchell 98 (talk) 06:26, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Update: Apologies, I mistakenly thought that Director was an admin when is in fact not. Correcting error in my post. Nick Mitchell 98 (talk) 05:42, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

Nick you raise some valid points. I agree that at this point since it has turned into a "slow-motion" edit war, that the last RfC consensus should take presentence and priority. BTW, neither Director, nor I are admins. But one does not have to be to perform many tasks and functions on Wikipedia. The current Hakenkreuz should remain until consensus has changed, if it in fact does. Kierzek (talk) 12:40, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
It seems the matter is settled...for now; the last RfC should stand and consensus be followed accordingly. Kierzek (talk) 12:39, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Punk and heavy metal[edit]

The side-bar, under related topics, contains two curious entries:

  • Nazi punk
  • National Socialist black metal

I would like to remove them since they don't seem to belong in the infobox. Are there any objections? K.e.coffman (talk) 20:35, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

IMO, anything not directly related to the German Nazi movement should be removed, but I wonder how others feel. Associating people, groups or movements with the contentious category (which is what the sidebar does) is questionable, again in my opinion. Collect (talk) 13:12, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
Since there's one up vote and no down votes, I will go ahead and remove. K.e.coffman (talk) 19:48, 22 December 2015 (UTC)