Template talk:Orphan

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WikiProject Orphanage
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Orphan Tool Needs Further Development (before it should be rolled out)[edit]

Hi. This is regarding the use of the Orphan Tool that has been developed. The orphan tool suggested for use (apparently performed on a privately owned URL by Edward Betts) needs some further development before it can be useful or before it should be deployed by Wikipedia. It seems unfinished in both its intent and its technology. At this point in time, it is a simple search - one size fits all broad sweep - that a child could write (I use this metaphor just to remark on its oversimplification, not to disparage anyone), without any ability to narrow the search criteria from the thousands of choices that are listed following the search, or to actually select - assuming you that have found something in the list - what you are searching for. You can't even point it back to the Wikipedia article in question to have it added to the article and solve the Orphan problem. What is the point of automation, if it doesn't really automate anything? At this point, as it stands, it is almost an example of "more is less." Regards... Stevenmitchell (talk) 09:58, 6 June 2016 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with your characterization of this tool. It seems quite sophisticated to me. The source code is available on GitHub here; I challenge you to improve it, if you find it that easy to write.
What it could use perhaps is a more intuitive interface and more documentation, beyond User:Edward/Find link. A bot that periodically created a list of the most "find-linkable" articles would be nice, too.
But it does, in its current edition, do an excellent job of semi-automating the creation of links to de-orphan articles. For example, try Battle of Merta. You may need to make the template visible, per Template:Orphan#Visibility. The tool brings up this page with three items. Click on "Merta City", the second item. That brings up a preloaded edit, complete with edit summary, ready to either preview or save with a single click. See this semi-automated edit that I made using this tool. That's about as automated as you can get, short of creating a bot to do it entirely automatically and removing human review of each individual edit. – wbm1058 (talk) 14:01, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Tool broken?[edit]

Is the tool broken? I don't see a banner on pages containing this. I tried creating a sandbox page in my user space with no inlinks and stuck a {{Orphan}} banner on it, still nothing. (Does it hide itself in User space?) I'm using Chrome in incognito mode on Win 7; would that hide the banner for some reason (it does something with cookies, not sure what.) Thanks. Mathglot (talk) 04:21, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

Read the #Visibility section of the template documentation Pppery (talk) 12:42, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
So sorry, and thank you very much. Mathglot (talk) 05:13, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 21 June 2016[edit]

Split |text = '''is an [[Wikipedia:Orphan|orphan]], as no <!--or very few -->other articles [{{fullurl:Special:Whatlinkshere|target={{PAGENAMEE}}&namespace=0}} link to it]'''. Please [[Help:Link|introduce links]] to this page from <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&redirs=1&search={{PAGENAMEU}}&fulltext=Search&ns0=1&title=Special%3ASearch&advanced=1&fulltext={{PAGENAMEU}} related articles]</span>; try the [//edwardbetts.com/find_link?q={{PAGENAMEE}} Find link tool] for suggestions.

into

|issue = '''is an [[Wikipedia:Orphan|orphan]], as no <!--or very few -->other articles [{{fullurl:Special:Whatlinkshere|target={{PAGENAMEE}}&namespace=0}} link to it]'''.

and

|fix=Please [[Help:Link|introduce links]] to this page from <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&redirs=1&search={{PAGENAMEU}}&fulltext=Search&ns0=1&title=Special%3ASearch&advanced=1&fulltext={{PAGENAMEU}} related articles]</span>; try the [//edwardbetts.com/find_link?q={{PAGENAMEE}} Find link tool] for suggestions.

Reason for change: so the `Please help linking template doesn't show up in {{multiple issues}} Pppery (talk) 12:56, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

This change was reverted after a brief discussion (see Template talk:Orphan#"Issue" and "fix" separated to different template parameters). Personally I would separate them again but this should probably be discussed in more detail. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:44, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
And where would such a discussion take place? Pppery (talk) 13:58, 21 June 2016 (UTC)
Here would be a good place ;) We can let TheAMmollusc and wbm1058 know that we are discussing this. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:41, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
This would be helpful for low-linked articles, which can also benefit from using these tools to add additional links. Having the links in the sidebar would mitigate the need to have them in the {{Orphan}} template
See mw:Manual:Interface/Sidebar. MediaWiki:Sidebar just has a bullet for "TOOLBOX", which is a "special keyword". The toolbox, which appears under the search bar, is a dynamic element and cannot be easily customized without the use of skinning extensions. So adding new items to the toolbox seems a bit complicated. wbm1058 (talk) 15:20, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
Wbm1058, you seem to be confused. This unexpectedly controversial edit request had nothing to do with removing the links to the find link tool or Special:Search. It was just attempting to reducing clutter when the {{orphan}} template shows up inside {{multiple issues}}, which is the purpose of that latter template. Pppery (talk) 15:41, 22 June 2016 (UTC)
No, I don't believe I'm confused about what you are asking for. We disagree about what is "clutter". I feel that Betts' tool is already useful in its current form (though it could still be improved). If the links can be added to the sidebar, then that mitigates the need to have them in the {{Orphan}} template, thus allowing that "clutter" to be removed as then there's an alternate location for the tool links. I don't feel that the existing messages are too verbose, but if the message in {{multiple issues}} must be shortened, I suggest this:

|issue = '''is an [[Wikipedia:Orphan|orphan]].''' (<span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&redirs=1&search={{PAGENAMEU}}&fulltext=Search&ns0=1&title=Special%3ASearch&advanced=1&fulltext={{PAGENAMEU}} related articles]</span>) ([//edwardbetts.com/find_link?q={{PAGENAMEE}} Find link])

and

|fix=No <!--or very few -->other articles [{{fullurl:Special:Whatlinkshere|target={{PAGENAMEE}}&namespace=0}} link to this article.] Please [[Help:Link|introduce links]] to this page from <span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&redirs=1&search={{PAGENAMEU}}&fulltext=Search&ns0=1&title=Special%3ASearch&advanced=1&fulltext={{PAGENAMEU}} related articles]</span>; try the [//edwardbetts.com/find_link?q={{PAGENAMEE}} Find link tool] for suggestions.

Need to try this in the sandbox to make sure the cosmetics and functionality are good. In this configuration, the fix parameter is somewhat redundant, but I suppose that's OK. wbm1058 (talk) 17:11, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Ideally it would be better if it was possible to do something other than concatenating something when the template is used in {{multiple issues}}. In any case, some duplication could be removed by using

|text=''is an [[Wikipedia:Orphan|orphan]], as no <!--or very few --><span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&redirs=1&search={{PAGENAMEU}}&fulltext=Search&ns0=1&title=Special%3ASearch&advanced=1&fulltext={{PAGENAMEU}} related articles]</span> [{{fullurl:Special:Whatlinkshere|target={{PAGENAMEE}}&namespace=0}} link to it]([//edwardbetts.com/find_link?q={{PAGENAMEE}} Find links]) Pppery (talk) 22:33, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

@Wbm1058: Wait - what I had hoped for in my previous comment is true - one can completely seperate the text inside {{multiple issues}} and the text outside of it, using the |smalltext= parameter, producing no changes to the |text= parameter and:

|smalltext=''is an [[Wikipedia:Orphan|orphan]], as no <!--or very few --><span class="plainlinks">[//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&redirs=1&search={{PAGENAMEU}}&fulltext=Search&ns0=1&title=Special%3ASearch&advanced=1&fulltext={{PAGENAMEU}} related articles]</span> [{{fullurl:Special:Whatlinkshere|target={{PAGENAMEE}}&namespace=0}} link to it]([//edwardbetts.com/find_link?q={{PAGENAMEE}} Find links]).

Pppery (talk) 15:42, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Edit request: change the link of "related articles"[edit]

I suggest changing the link of "related articles" from a search of the article's name to Wikipedia:Orphan#Step 2: Finding related articles:

imo the information contained there is way more useful for people trying to find related articles than a plain search of the article's title.

A Wikipedia search is also recommended and linked to in that section as well plus it seems it's mostly redundant anyways given that Edward Bett's Find Link Tool also checks for articles that mention the name.

--Fixuture (talk) 01:02, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

  • Oppose - I use these links to to search for related articles when deorphaning. I would not be happy if I had to manually C-P the article title to do these searches. Wikipedia:Orphan#Step 2: Finding related articles is getting a bit messy BTW. ~Kvng (talk) 15:33, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
@Kvng: So you would say that a link to the article title's search would be more useful than the information contained there? I guess it's a matter of prioritization: for the people who go through Category:Orphaned articles to mass-deorphan articles a link to the search would be more useful, for newcomers (or almost anyone actually) who created an article (or have interest in improving it) the information contained in that section would be more useful. I think it is very likely that the people who mass-deorphan articles are more effective than those who see that template (occasionally) on a page they're interested in. Hence you have a point here. However, the information contained in that section may help people to generally get started with helping out on Wikipedia or at the task of de-orphaning articles - it would increase the number of people editing Wikipedia and increase the number of people mass de-orphaning articles as well as improving the effectiveness of those who do it.
And here's a suggestion: what about having both links in the template? I think it would be better to have "introduce links" link to that section. Actually it doesn't make much sense as it is right now: currently it links to Help:Link but "introducing links" is a task whose how-to can be found at the section I'd like to link to - the Help:Link page just describes what a link is and hence it should just be linked from "links" and not "introducing links". --Fixuture (talk) 17:37, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
I don't know whether adding another would be helpful. Why don't you propose something specific for us to review. You should also drop a message on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Orphanage; I don't think too many editors watch this page. ~Kvng (talk)