Template talk:Respell

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Size fix[edit]

W. B. Yeats

First the live template, then the sandbox version:
William Butler Yeats (/ˈjts/, yayts)
William Butler Yeats (/ˈjts/, yayts)

We need a |size=normal or |small=no or something to this effect Update: problem/solution restated below, to prevent the font-size reduction, with this parameter documented for use only is infoboxes, footnotes, and other places where the font size is already reduced. The problem is that in such a circumstance, the extra font size reduction by this template reduces the output to below the minimum accessible size (I think we've declared that to be 85%; it's at MOS:ACCESS somewhere). See first footnote at William Butler Yeats#Notes as of this permalink for an example. Even with my glasses on I cannot read that without getting my face close to the monitor.  — SMcCandlish ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ʌ<  06:20, 8 December 2017 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish: Instead of adding an option, how about we change <small><i>...</i></small> to <i style="font-size: initial;"><small>...</small></i>? That way the font size will be absolute. Compare:
Nardog (talk) 07:39, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
That makes it too large, and people will howl about it. We've already had an RfC where just killing off all pronunciation information in the lead was a very close call. On a closer examination (see infobox sample, top right of this thread), the actual problem appears to be that it's just too small in general; the text should be exactly the same size as that produced by {{IPAc-en}}, etc. It will then not be too small in cites and infoboxes and such, and it will also look way more consistent in leads and other running text.  — SMcCandlish ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ʌ<  08:40, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
the text should be exactly the same size as that produced by {{IPAc-en}}, etc. – Then we can just remove <small>...</small>. The reason it is there in the first place is that the template used to use SMALL CAPS for stressed syllables but that made them look smaller than unstressed syllables so we ditched it (see above). Nardog (talk) 08:55, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
Sandbox updated. Nardog (talk) 09:06, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
@SMcCandlish: Thoughts? Nardog (talk) 13:36, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
Just right, size-wise! I hadn't realized the <small> was there for an obsolete reason, and was going to suggest some kind of replacement span with CSS, but am glad none of that is needed to fix the size issue. But, see next thread.  — SMcCandlish ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ʌ<  16:15, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Over-emphasis fix[edit]

Looking at the output on the template's doc page as of this writing, the result (from brief discussion higher up the page) of applying both capitalization and boldfacing for stressed syllables is grossly excessive, and puts us right back in "this is going to trigger people to demand the removal of pronunciation info from leads" territory.

Most especially because MOS:LEAD and MOS:BOLD reserve boldface in the lead for "this is an alternative name for the subject and redirects here".

See MOS:SMALLCAPS: there are multiple small-capping templates, and the one we want is {{sc2}}: SKIT-sə-FREE-nee-ə, -⁠FREN-ee-ə – note that this copy-pastes into ASCII as intended (i.e., without losing the stress distinction): "SKIT-sə-FREE-nee-ə, -FREN-ee-ə".

We could also use some in-template CSS to do something custom, e.g. a slightly taller height for stressed than un-stressed elements; this would also reduce the chain of template calls by not shelling out to {{sc2}}.

  1. SKIT-sə-FREE-nee-ə, -⁠FREN-ee-ə = Using {{sc2}}
  2. SKIT-sə-FREE-nee-ə, -⁠FREN-ee-ə = Example output with custom CSS (don't look at my wikisource code here; this is just an example-generation kludge)
  3. SKIT-sə-FREE-nee-ə, -⁠FREN-ee-ə = The live template's output, but with the bold removed (i.e., still using full-size caps).
  4. SKIT-sə-FREE-nee-ə, -⁠FREN-ee-ə = The current live template's output, which is like being machine-gunned in the eyeballs with all that bolding. By combining bold with larger letters we're doubling the emphasis effect pointlessly.
  5. skit-sə-free-nee-ə, -fren-ee-ə = An approximation of the former output when that earlier thread was opened. It admittedly was confusing, with smaller caps than regular letters. This didn't look as bad with bolding, because the tiny smallcaps reduce the bolding effect, and the non-reduced size of the lettering of the unstressed parts makes for less distinction between the regular-nonbold and the tiny-bold. But overall, it didn't make much sense.

We should use #1 or – at most – #2.

The problem with the earlier thread, and what was done based on it, is that small caps wasn't the problem; super-small caps was. MOS:ALLCAPS wants us to use small caps here, but not bold.  — SMcCandlish ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ʌ<  16:15, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish: Boldface can go, I agree. But I still don't like small caps. I find it more visually intuitive when stressed syllables are distinguished not only by case but also by height. So #3 would be my choice. Nardog (talk) 16:35, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
@Nardog: Well, #2 also does that, but technically complying with MOS:ALLCAPS in not making it quite FULL SCREAMING SIZE. Heh. Can we call #2 the winner? (Of course, others might care, too. There's not urgent hurry, other than for removing the bold.)  — SMcCandlish ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ʌ<  18:21, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
@SMcCandlish: Sure, I can see that as a middle ground. In actual implementation, though, what font size should we specify? 90%? Nardog (talk) 18:33, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
 Done with 90%. Nardog (talk) 14:53, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Permitting the use of the Respell template for non-English languages[edit]

This template is of course absolutely wonderful and allows one to instantly get a feel for the pronunciation of a word. I would like to suggest that its use be allowed for non-English languages.

Showing IPA for foreign words is good, but they are for most readers of fairly limited use: Only some people actually know IPA, and those who do only know the sounds it describes in their own language. Reading IPA takes a bit of work and one cannot do it at a glance.

It would be great if the Respell template was allowed to be used for foreign words:

  • The reader could instantly comprehend how the word is approximately pronounced.
  • The reader would not have to open up the IPA guide for every new language they might encounter here and do a slow lookup of sound description. (Finding the description for the Swedish "ɧ", for example, is a tad tedious and no one could be expected to know that particular IPA symbol).

Guides for transcribing IPA into English approximations are readily available on Wikipedia. I do think that allowing the use of Respell in addition to IPA would really augment the experience for the reader, especially for foreign place names.

Þjarkur (talk) 23:45, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

Rendering issue[edit]

I noticed that when you add a parenthesis within a stressed syllable, the text displays in full-caps instead of being size-reduced, e.g. DA(H)N-sər vs LOO-zər. Does it only occur on mobile devices or is it a general issue? Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 14:23, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Fixed here. Nardog (talk) 14:44, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
@Nardog: thank you. Is there a way to keep the parentheses in capitals and the text in smallcaps, in case one parenthesis is in the stressed syllable and the other isn’t? Or am I just asking for too much? XD Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 14:55, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
Can you give me an example? Nardog (talk) 14:55, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
E.g. YAHSH(-ee), which I added at Iași. Italy.png イヴァンスクルージ九十八(会話)Italy.png 15:03, 13 August 2019 (UTC)
Ok, now {{respell|YAHSH|(-ee)}} yields YAHSH(-ee). Nardog (talk) 15:25, 13 August 2019 (UTC)