Template talk:Schubert piano sonatas
Controversy over the numbering of the sonatas
There's much controversy as regards the numbering of Schubert's piano sonatas, quite similar to his symphonies. The total number of sonatas ranges between 20 and 23. One of the disputed issues concerns the early D-flat sonata - should it have a separate number from the E-flat sonata, which is almost identical? There's a reference on all this stuff but I can't recall which one it is. Owing to this confusion, Schubert's piano sonatas are usually identified by their key and catalogue number, and not by their serial number. I therefore suggest removing the numbers from the template as well as the individual articles. This will prevent confusion as well as the biased representation of only one of the numbering conventions. Gidip (talk) 10:56, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
- I would not call the early D♭ sonata (D.567) "almost identical" to the later E♭ sonata (D.568). Yes, the notes match up almost perfectly upon transposition (in some places: the development and recapitulation of the first movement have quite a few differences), but there are countless differences in articulations and expression marks, and the key relationships are different (the D♭ sonata is homotonal D♭/c♯/D♭, while the E♭ sonata is E♭/g/E♭/E♭). (Personally I prefer the D♭ version, although I suspect that that's not a majority view!) Double sharp (talk) 13:00, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
This reply was copied from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music:
- I support that. I think I've only seen Schubert's sonatas referred by their catalogue numbers and/or keys, never by numbers. Jashiin (talk) 11:38, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
- I originally had just the key and D-numbers on the template. CenturionZ added the numerical numbers. Its just so common to use ordinal numbers in article names for pieces that I can understand why he did that. Many other series of works that are known primarily by their catalog numbers and keys have been able to get away with having ordinal numbers listed because there is indeed a common way of ordinally numbering them (e.g. Mozart sonatas, Beethoven sonatas & quartets, etc). Allmusic.com had a way of ordinally numbering the Schubert sonatas, but if those are not accepted, then I can understand the possible confusion there. I have no preference as to whether ordinal numbers are present as long as D-numbers and keys are both included. DavidRF (talk) 20:46, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
- This may not be the "standard" way to cite them, but in my personal cataloguing efforts I've found that the one relatively foolproof approach is to use Deutsch numbers as if they were ordinal: Sonata D. 959 in A Major, Sonata D. 960 in B-Flat Major, etc. The opus numbers are spotty and misleading, and ordinal numbers are at least as bad, not to mention not terribly common in practice. Drhoehl (talk) 02:02, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
For reference, the IMSLP numbering system is: #1 = D.157 (E–B), #2 = D.279 (C), #3 = D.459 (E), #4 = D.537 (a), #5 = D.557 (A♭–E♭), #6 = D.566 (e), #7 = D.567 (D♭) and D.568 (E♭; I think it would be better to give them separate numbers, though): #8 = D.571 (f♯), #9 = D.575 (B), #10 = D.613 (C), #11 = D.625 (f), #12 = D.655 (c♯; I think this is too insubstantial to be given a number), #13 = D.664 (A), #14 = D.784 (a), #15 = D.840 (C), #16 = D.845 (a), #17 = D.850 (D), #18 = D.894 (G), #19 = D.958 (c), #20 = D.959 (A), #21 = D.960 (B♭).
My personal preference would be to separate D.567 and D.568, thus bumping up D.571 to D.625 up a slot. I would also remove D.655 from the numbering (on the grounds that IMSLP doesn't dignify D.769a (e) with an ordinal number, and both are really far from being finished: I originally wrote "nobody dignifies D.769a (e) with an ordinal number", but Gidip's reference to a numbering with 23 sonatas proves me wrong, as it must include the 21 sonatas in my preferred numbering system plus the D.655 and D.769a fragments!), thus resulting in a numbering from #1 to #21 again. But there are so many different numberings in use that it's probably best to just leave the Deutsch numbers and keys as the primary reference. Double sharp (talk) 12:43, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
With some of the sonatas, there is the confusing situation where different movements are given different Deutsch numbers.
- D.279 in C major: first three movements are D.279. Fourth movement (fragmentary) is D.346. The handwriting and paper used constitute evidence for this assignment.
- D.459 in E major: first two movements are D.459. Last three movements are D.459a.
- D.566 in E minor: first three movements are D.566. Last movement is D.506. Evidence for this assignment is the presence of "Sonata by Franz Schubert" on the cover page of the copyist's manuscript of D.506.
- D.571 in F-sharp minor: First movement is D.571. Second movement is D.604. Third and fourth movements are together as D.570. The outer movements are fragments, but only the recapitulations are lacking. Evidence takes the form of the key scheme (f♯/A/D/f♯: D.604 even starts with a deceptive cadence on f♯ minor) and the fact that all the movements are written on the obverse side of sketches from 1815 and 1816.
- D.613 in C major: The outer movements (both incomplete) are D.613, while the second movement is D.612. All three movements were completed in April 1818, which is evidence for their making up a complete sonata.
- D.625 in F minor: Movements 1, 3, and 4 are D.625, while the second movement is D.505. Ferdinand Schubert's thematic catalogue gives this placement, although Paul Badura-Skoda considers it to be better as the third movement.
In the cases of most of the incomplete sonatas (D.279, D.567, D.571, D.613, D.625, and D.840) reconstruction is facilitated by the fact that in most cases it is only the recapitulation that is lacking (the finale of D.840 being the big exception). D.655 and D.769a (994) simply have too little material present (D.655 only gets up to the end of the exposition: D.769a breaks off after 38 bars) to be reconstructed. Double sharp (talk) 12:36, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
Opus numbers (in case anyone wants them)
D. 537 = Op. posth. 164; D. 568 = Op. posth. 122; D. 575 = Op. posth. 147; D. 664 = Op. posth. 120; D. 784 = Op. posth. 143; D. 845 = Op. 42; D. 850 = Op. 53; D. 894 = Op. 78; D. 505 = Op. posth. 145 No. 1; D. 506 = Op. posth. 145 No. 2. Double sharp (talk) 07:12, 30 March 2014 (UTC)