Template talk:Scottish provinces

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Insular districts[edit]

Interesting template - is there a logic for the insular districts? They seem rather patchy. Ben MacDui 18:38, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

As far as the original editor is concerned, the logic is that these were the districts printed on the "Provinces and Districts" map (Peter McNeill) of Peter McNeill and Hector MacQueen (eds.) Atlas of Scottish History to 1707 page 24. As far as McNeill's logic goes, no idea. Almost all the insular districts printed are islands themselves, the rest are the ones I put on the template. Maybe they represent late medieval/early modern lordships or parishes or something, but I couldn't say.
Would you be for dumping this section, or expanding it? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 18:52, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
Definitely the latter if that is possible or credible although I can see it might be difficult to mix sources. I don't have this Atlas and the older descriptions of Orkney and Shetland tend to describe islands rather than districts as the template suggests. Ben MacDui 19:25, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
Well, it's open to all takers. Anyone who knows another relevant insular district may add it. :) Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 02:22, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
OK - I'll do this in two stages: firstly adding a sub-heading structure with the existing insular districts; then adding some additional larger islands that I am assuming qualify. Ben MacDui 09:13, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
Clyde - just assuming the two largest islands are mentioned by McNeill. I suspect Barra and the Uists are as well. The Northern Isles listed are all mentioned in George Buchanan's 1582 Regnum Scoticarum Historia. He also lists lots of smaller islands although not Sanday or Stronsay for some reason, which do appear in Blaeu's 1654 Atlas. I am assuming the list of islands is intended to be indicative rather than comprehensive. Ben MacDui 09:40, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
Looking at the template now, I notice there are lots of islands on it. When I designed it I didn't intend it to include islands, only districts which just happen to be on islands. Not that I get to control this kind of thing or anything like that, but that part of the template now looks a little ill-fitting. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:55, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

The Insular districts represent distinct provinces in the historic divison of Scotland into a number of provinces (before they were replaced by counties in the 19th century). The subitems under each insular district are more minor.

The non-mainland provinces were Bute (Islands of the Clyde), Islay (includes Jura), Mull, Skye, Western Isles (Outer Hebrides), Orkney, and Zetland (Shetland). 80.5.30.32 (talk) 18:00, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

There's a better map here:

Provinces in 1689

80.5.30.32 (talk) 11:14, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

Look, there are so many problems with the way you've changed this template that I'm reverting once again so that valid information is not lost. Changing a long standing template with no explanation for these alterations is not how its done.
I'll mention a few things at a very cursory glance:
  • Where is Assin; did you mean Assynt?
  • Since when was Banff a mainland province? Boyne that would correspond with some of Banff, you removed entirely.
  • Since when was Stirling a province? Strathcarron (Forth) is the district and remains there in your setup.
  • Mearns, Menteith (this was a stewartry and later on became an earldom), Nithsdale, Strathgryfe (a lordship) and Tweeddale would all be classed as major districts.
  • Your section of Traditional minor districts Contains The Rhinns which is, in fact, a province of medieval Scotland—even referred to as the Kingdom of the Rhinns
  • Where is your evidence that Bute including Arran, Islay and Jura, Mull, Skye, Orkney, Western Isles and Shetland were Scottish provinces. Following Jura's transfer from Norwegian to Scottish rule in 1266 appears to have been then part of Argyll. Similarly, on the transfer of Bute and Jura to Scotland around 1250 it was directly controlled by the Crown.
  • Orkney and Shetland remained with Norway until 1468/9 and at no time after that were the regarded as provinces. -- Bill Reid | (talk) 17:32, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

Needs an article[edit]

I'd love to see an article about this subject, but I don't have anything like the knowledge to start one, so I thought I'd post here in the hope that an informed person might see it and agree that would be a good idea. When were the provices first defined, were they used for administration alongside or instead of shires/sherrifdoms, how did the borders alter over time? Question, questions. :-) Grinner (talk) 11:10, 5 February 2018 (UTC)