Template talk:Star Trek regulars/Archive 1
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I've added Barclay. He was in a movie, numerous TNG episodes and a significant presence on VOY. I don't know if he appeared more than Pulaski, but he certainly had a bigger canonical impact. Thoughts? Mdiamante 19:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
They were both "guest stars" but Pulaski was a senior officer for the entire second season, taking Crusher's place. I say Pulaski yes, but, Barclay no. 18.104.22.168 04:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
- I'm removing Barclay from TNG. O'Brien appeared more often than Barclay and was there for some actual dramatic work (e.g. The Wounded) rather than comic relief. If you want to make a case for Barclay under Voyager, go ahead -- I didn't particularly tune into that show so don't know whether it's appropriate. --EEMeltonIV 14:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
- Okay, fair point, he certainly is important in VOY so I'll put him there. I still think he deserves a presence, esp. with two TAS characters in. Mdiamante 02:09, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Why aren't Christine Chapel and Janice Rand included among the characters in the Original Series? Both characters are developed and familiar enough to be included.Rockhopper10r 20:22, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
- I have added Chapel and Rand. Philip Stevens 05:15, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Rand's article says she was only in 8 episodes. 8 episodes in an entire series is hardly a regular. 22.214.171.124 04:35, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
- The Making of Star Trek clearly established that Grace Lee Whitney was a series regular when the show started. While she was only in eight episodes, that means she was in over 60% of the episodes created before she was released from contract. Also, regardless of number of episodes, being a "regular" is a contractural status and has little to do with the actual number of episodes someone is in. --Roger McCoy/រ៉ាចើ (talk) 02:33, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
This is an awful lot of characters listed in comparison for other shows. A lot of them weren't starring characters, and some characters' appearances (Damar, Winn) could be comparable to people like Q and Barcaly, who aren't listed. Not to mention Guinan, who appeared an awful lot but was still a guest star. To keep it manageable and fair, the links should only be restricted to main characters. WesleyDodds 18:17, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree, the list of DS9 regulars is a mess, we have to have a rule for regulars. I would say just those billed during the opening credits. The only exception to this i can say is in TOS where only Kirk Spock and McCoy were billed - Sulu, Chekov, and Chapel could be added. And TNG you could add Pulaski. Any others are not regulars. 126.96.36.199 04:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
- Ridiculous. DS9 was especially notable for its large stable of recurring characters, many of whom were more prominent than Jake Sisko or seventh season addition Ezri Dax. --Peter Farago 07:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
Then what about: Morn, Keiko, Kasidy Yates, Michael Eddington, Vedek Bareil, Vic Fontaine, Joseph Sisko, Ziyal, Grand Nagus Zek, Enabran Tain, Ishka, Sloan, Shakaar, Jennifer Sisko, Sarah Sisko...? How do we determine who is a "regular" - i think we need some guideline. Some of the ones i listed above were in more episodes then ones that are listed right now. We need to have a guideline as to who is regular, what determines regular. should we add all these, several were major players in certain episodes. 188.8.131.52 01:13, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
- Your argument is disingenuous.
- Nog: 46 appearances
- Garak: 33
- Dukat 33
- Rom: 32
- Weyoun 26
- Martok 24
- Damar 23
- Winn 14
- Of the characters you list:
- Morn: 92 appearances, but no lines
- Keiko: 20
- Yates: 15
- Fontaine: 10
- Eddington: 9
- Bareil: 8
- Zek: 7
- Joseph Sisko: 6
- Sarah Sisko: 5
- Ishka: 5
- Tain: 4
- Sloan: 3
- Shakaar: 3
- Jennifer Sisko: 1
- So only Keiko and Yates appear more than Winn, the least frequently occurring character currently listed. I think that it's obvious that Winn had a much greater presence and influence on the plot of the show than either of those two, but I would consent to de-listing her for consistancy's sake if you absolutely insist. I think with a show with a cast as large as DS9's, the list of regulars is going to be necessarily subjective, but that the list as it stands is excellent - basically as comprehensive and concise as possible. --Peter Farago 18:16, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
And if you add Barclay - what about TNG Ro Laren, Q, O'Brien, Nurse Ogawa, Alexander, Gowron, Lwaxana Troi. And Voyager - Naomi Wildman, Icheb, Seska, Carey, Vorik, Samantha Wildman (all these listed were in the show more than Barclay by the way) - and then Hogan, Rebi, Azan, Mezoti, Borg Queen, Q, Suder, Leonardo DaVinci hologram, Deanna Troi, Admiral Paris, Maje Culluh, Alpha Hirogen -- also major recurring characters that were crucial to storylines. Shall we add all these too? 184.108.40.206 01:23, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
- Of course not. DS9 was an ensemble show with strong continuity and recurring plot lines, TNG and Voyager were not. Do you really believe that even one of the characters you list had as strong an impact on the overall arc of the show as the least significant of the currently listed DS9 characters? --Peter Farago 18:16, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
I think Ro Laren had a significant impact on one season of TNG, and Seska had a big impact on Voyager in the early years. Other than that, no I don't think they do, just saying for consistency's sake 220.127.116.11 06:49, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Proposed Guidelines for Template
Here, since i said we need guidelines, I guess I should propose something. Automatically, anyone listed in the opening credits should be on the template. Anyone else, we can have them proposed here in the talk page, take a vote for I dont know, 2 weeks? And that decision will be if they get into the template or not. This way everyone's ideas get addressed and there won't be any edit wars, which I don't want to have. what do you think? Let's vote on this proposal too. And if you don't like it, make a proposal too! 18.104.22.168 02:44, 2 June 2007 (UTC)
- Why does it matter so much to you? In all honesty, who is currently listed that you think should not be? Who do you think should be listed that isn't? Do you actually have a problem with the template as it stands, or are you just arguing for "consistancy" for its own sake? --Peter Farago 18:18, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Arguing mainly for consistency's sake - I don't believe Damar should be on there, he didn't play a very large role, even if he was in a lot of episodes. I also don't see Rom in there, he is useless, yes he became an engineer, but what importance was he? Leeta used to be in here, she shouldn't go back, she contributed nothing and she was pointless. Nog could have been removed from the storyline easily, he was mainly just a minor subplot in a few episodes. Martok & Dukat, ok I can see those, I guess... Winn, maybe. Weyoun, I guess, but if you put him in then why isn't the female changeling in, she was a bigger part of the storyline. I also agree with you on Ezri and Jake, and the only reason they should be in is because they are billed, they are both useless. TNG I don't see a point in putting Guinan in there, she didn't contribute that much, Ro Laren did more than her. O'Brien was a key player in one TNG episode that I can recall, Power Play, he shouldnt be on TNG list. So who do I think should be removed: TNG, O'Brien, Guinan - DS9, Rom, Nog, Damar, possibly Weyoun, he's stupid in my opinion. Also, Eddington contributed more to the plot than Rom ever did, and probably more than some of the others listed here. Winn was a big part of the storyline, but I don't know if you'd say she was in it enough though. Also, I am trying to keep the tone in a nice manner, I don't want this to blow up. I am not angry, just my opinion is all 22.214.171.124 06:44, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Requirements for Inclusion
I think a simple "percentage of episodes appeared in" requirement should be looked at when saying whether or not a character should be included in the template. I would like to propose it as 50%. Therefore, a character would have needed to appear in 40 episodes of TOS, 11 of TAS, 89 of TNG, 88 of DS9, 86 of VOY, and 49 of ENT. So, using O'Brien as an example, he would not qualify for TNG (52 appearances), but he would qualify for DS9 (173). (The episode appearance numbers were taken from imdb.com.) Worf would qualify for both TNG and DS9 (175 and 102).
However, since there were several recurring characters that were either in many episodes or were the focus of a few, I think it might be a good idea to add a "Secondary Characters" list or box in addition to the "Main Characters" list/box. This number could be anywhere from 10%-25% of episodes appeared in. So, using TNG as an example the bar could be set at 10% (18 episodes), 20% (36), or 25% (45). To give an idea of what that looks like: O'Brien (52), Yar (31), Guinan (28), Pulaski (20), Ro Laren (9), and Q (8). Based on those numbers, I think Secondary Characters should be in between 10% and 50% of the episodes of a given series.
If people still want to include recurring characters who appeared in less than 10% of the episodes, like Ro Laren, Q, and Barclay, a third list for minor recurring characters could be added.
(One last stipulation should be that the characters need to have dialogue or at least clearly be the same character for each episode. This would stop any problems like the Lieutenant Leslie problem, who appeared in 59 episodes of TOS, but was just playing the role of an unnamed sacrificial redshirt in most of those episodes.)
- I've updated the template for Main Characters and Secondary Characters, and for inclusion I've used appearances in 50% of the episodes qualifies as a main character, 10-49% qualifies as a secondary character. So the number of episodes needed to be in to qualify for each series is TOS 40/8, TNG 89/18, DS9 88/18, VOY 86/17, and ENT 49/10. I'm not sure what to do with TAS, since there's so few episodes, the numbers are 11/2. Anyway, the appearance numbers were taken from imdb.com and memory-alpha.org, and I only updated the names that were on the list, so I'm sure there are more characters that qualify, especially for DS9 or VOY.
- Yes but the characters billed in the opening credit should be major characters automatically. Kes was a major character for 3 seasons, and should be listed as such. Same with Tasha Yar and Wesley Crusher, who were major characters but later left the show. Same for Ezri Dax who replaced Jadzia and was a major character for season 7. I think these first billed should be major automatically. Ejfetters 09:50, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
- I've read the above requiremants, and agree with them. However, it seems like Lt. Leslie and Morn should qualify as secondary characters, regarless of the dialogue problem. Even as a background character, it is notable to show up in such a large percentage of episodes (Leslie-75%, well within parameters; Morn-54%, low, but still good enough to be a secondary character), and they were occasionally mentioned in the end credits (at least Leslie was; I don't know about Morn). Also, both occasionally played a semi-important part in several episodes (Leslie blew up Lazarus' ship in "The Alternate Factor", and openly rebelled against Kirk in "This side of Paradise"; Morn had numerous examples). For this, they should at least be able to qualify for secondary-charactership. --Ye Olde Luke 20:51, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
I was wondering what y'all thought of reformatting this table to be four columns across instead of two. Currently it's quite tall and takes up more room at the footer of articles than it probably ought to.
I've created a test in my userspace: User:SatyrTN/STR - do you think that works okay? I'll watchlist here, and I'll post this on the WP:Star Trek page as well. Thanks! -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 05:37, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- I like it! --Ye Olde Luke 03:56, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Pulaski is secondary, but Yar/W Crusher are not?
Yar appeared is as many seasons of ST:TNG as Pulaski did. Wesley appeared regularly in less than half the series altogether. Certainly there is a discrepency here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 09:05, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
- Although Diana Muldaur was billed a special guest star, she was in the entire 2nd season and the CMO, I think making her primary would be ok. Wil Wheaton and Denise Crosby were billed in the opening credits, and were not secondary when they were in the show, they were primary characters. Secondary would be recurring guest star roles, these 2 were main cast members, and therefore shouldnt be considered secondary. Same to be argued with deBoer in DS9, and Lien in Voyager. Ejfetters 04:42, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be better just to remove these altogether? I mean, this is a template for regulars. If you're going to keep the secondaries, establish some standard for it. --Roger McCoy/រ៉ាចើ (talk) 02:44, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
What is a regular?
I've mentioned this above, but a regular is someone who is contracted as a regular for the series. It has little to do with the amount of episodes they were in. (E.g., Jake Sisko is a regular, Garak is not.)
Characters listed in the opening credits are all regulars. This includes:
The Original Series Kirk | McCoy | Spock
The Animated Series Kirk | McCoy | Spock
The Next Generation B. Crusher | W. Crusher | Data | La Forge | Picard | Riker | Troi | Worf | Yar
Deep Space Nine Bashir | E. Dax | J. Dax | Kira | M. O'Brien | Odo | Quark | B. Sisko | J. Sisko | Worf
Voyager Chakotay | Doctor | Janeway | Kes | Kim | Neelix | Paris | Seven | Torres | Tuvok
Enterprise Archer | Mayweather | Phlox | Reed | Sato | T'Pol | Tucker
These characters are *unquestionably* regulars. However, historically speaking, not all contracted regulars are listed in the opening credits. (A non-Star Trek example might be the actors playing Pilot and Rygel on Farscape, although I can't confirm for certain that they were contracted as such.) The following characters (or at least the actors playing them) are clearly credited as regulars according to sources such as The Making of Star Trek and The Star Trek: The Next Generation Companion.
The Original Series Chapel | Chekov | Rand | Scott | Sulu | Uhura
The Next Generation Pulaski
The Animated Series is a little trickier, but pretty much any source you check will list all of the TOS characters along with Arex and M'Ress. (Arex and M'Ress being the odd point, since they're played by the same actors as Scotty and Uhura respectively. Again, most sources will list these characters as regulars, including official sources.)
The Animated Series Arex | Chapel | M'Ress | Rand | Scott | Sulu | Uhura
That pretty much completes the list. Garak and Shran were both considered as possibilities to be added as regulars, but it didn't happen in either case. The only other reasonable addition would be Guinan. Again, this has nothing to do with the amount of episodes she was in, but she was included in several of the cast photographs. Nonetheless, I tend to lean against including Guinan since I don't believe she was actually contracted as a regular.
Oh... And I guess you could arguably add Saavik for the movies. But adding a "movie regular" is pretty arbitrary unless the actor is in a multi-film contract (which she obviously wasn't).--Roger McCoy/រ៉ាចើ (talk) 03:00, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
- The only other reasonable addition would be Guinan. Again, this has nothing to do with the amount of episodes she was in, but she was included in several of the cast photographs.
- Just wanted to clarify what I meant by that statement. I'm not just referring to general photographs of TNG cast members. I'm referring to the cast shot taken (at least) once per season used to advertise the show, and, in particular, the shots used to introduce the chapters for each season in the Star Trek: The Next Generation Companion. Guinan appeared in the shots for season two (can't find a copy online), season four (), and season five (which was the cover of the first edition companion -- see ). She was not featured in the season three () or seven cast pictures, and I don't believe she was in the season six one either (but I'm not certain on that one).
- In any case, although some sources list her as a "regular" (), most reliable sources simply list here as a "recurring role" ().--Roger McCoy/រ៉ាចើ (talk) 18:49, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
- The Animated Series is a little trickier, but pretty much any source you check will list all of the TOS characters along with Arex and M'Ress.
- Oh... And I hope this would be obvious from the list that followed, but "all of the TOS characters" only includes that regulars that were actually on the show (i.e., everyone except Chekov and Rand). --Roger McCoy/រ៉ាចើ (talk) 18:53, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
This really seems straightforward enough. I've stripped out the recurring characters and moved them to Template:Star Trek recurring characters. Argue that list all you want, but this one should be fairly static.--Roger McCoy/រ៉ាចើ (talk) 21:28, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Rom > Pulaski/Yar
- Not that it's really that relevant, but Memory Alpha only has him listed as appearing in 33 eps. Yar alone appeared in 27 eps (counting "Shades of Grey", "Yesterday's Enterprise", and both parts of "All Good Things..."). Not sure how many times Pulaski appeared, but I'm pretty positive it was more than six. --Roger McCoy/រ៉ាចើ (talk) 09:53, 30 August 2008 (UTC)