Wikipedia talk:Template messages/User talk namespace

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request a slight change[edit]

change current text for Template:Uw-vandalism1 from;

Information icon Hello, I'm Example. I wanted to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions have been undone because they did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. If you think a mistake was made, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thanks.


Information icon Hello, I'm Example. I wanted to let you know that one or more of your recent contributions have been undone because they did not appear constructive. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. If you have any questions, you can ask for assistance at the Help Desk. Thanks.

Thank you - theWOLFchild 02:21, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit template-protected}} template. This is not a "slight change". -- John of Reading (talk) 08:06, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
@John of Reading: - This is not a "slight change". - Of course it is. The notice basically remains the same, except at the end, we're now simply directing these would-be vandals to the help desk where they are less likely to vandalize further and more likely to be set in the right direction, instead of inviting them back to our own talk pages to vandalize further in revenge for being reverted and warned. This is win-win. Now if you can't see that for yourself, just how and where do you propose I establish consensus for this? (and thanks for linking "consensus", I had no idea what it meant). Do I just wait and see if anyone happens to pass by this section, of this page, and !votes? As a template editor, surely you can make minor, obvious improvements on your own? Especially one like this that is not "controversial", (and save me the trouble of manually changing each notice to this new variant anyway, every time I use the template... ) Thanks - theWOLFchild 16:26, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
  • I don't agree with the proposed change, as I think those placing these templated user notices should be prepared to justify them if challenged. There is also a saving of labour this way, as the editor placing the template already knows why, whereas a help desk volunteer would have to look up the edit and its context before concocting a reply.
Many of the new or inexperienced editors or IPs who receive these Level 1 user messages are not malicious vandals (and the message doesn't accuse them of this), just not aware of Wikipedia standards and practice. However, in my experience it is quite rare for such editors to take up the invitation to my talk page. If they respond at all, they just repeat the edit, or type something on their own talk page below the template, without a ping so it's only picked up if I am watching that talk page. But if they are bent on mischief, isn't it better for them to temporarily damage one user's talk page rather than a highly visible venue like a help desk?
Now about seeking consensus: if a proposal on the relevant project talk page isn't getting a response, there are the village pumps. But this page I see has 840 watchers, and doubles as the talk page for the WikiProject on user warnings. It should attract an adequate range of views (he says hopefully): Noyster (talk), 17:26, 1 January 2018 (UTC)
Well, thank you for your response. But, I'm not clear how it supports, or really even explains your "oppose". To quote your own words; " my experience it is quite rare for such editors to take up the invitation to my talk page.", so, again... then why are we adding this suggestion at the end of the message? You go on to say; "If they respond at all, they just repeat the edit, or type something on their own talk page below the template, without a ping so it's only picked up if I am watching that talk page." Sounds like they could benefit from some advice if they were directed to, say... the help desk? But you oppose that because; "There is also a saving of labour this way," (not directing them to the help desk) "as the editor placing the template already knows why, whereas a help desk volunteer would have to look up the edit and its context before concocting a reply." But, isn't that why the volunteers are at the help desk in the first place? You want to "save them the trouble of helping people"...? And how labor-intensive is it really to click a link or two? Anyway, like I said... thank you for your response. Despite the oppose, it actually helps support my proposed change. Cheers - theWOLFchild 17:49, 1 January 2018 (UTC)

Well, that's 2 out of 840. Anyone else? - theWOLFchild 20:04, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

  • This change is not minor because it removes the advice on what the user should do if (they believe) they were templated in error. If it was a mistake why should they go to the help desk? I have indeed hesitated to use this template at times because of it directing the user back to my page, which even adding a signature does, but I don't think this proposed change adequately addresses the scenarios now covered. What other first step should someone take in the event of an erroneous template? I can't think of anything more appropriate. —DIYeditor (talk) 02:15, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
Well, like you said, our signature is right there at the end of the message, with a link to our user/talk page. If they feel we've made a mistake, and they are knowledgeable enough, they can tell us directly what they think with one click. If they lack even that basic usage knowledge, then the help desk is exactly where we should be directing them. Like I said, it's win-win. Not sure why you guys keep saying you 'oppose' this change while at the same time posting comments that support it. So let's just change it already. I'm sure the whole project won't collapse overnight. If it does, just tell Jim and the gang to blame me. - theWOLFchild 09:40, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
  • One way to pull in more opinions would be to make an RfC of it, and it is important to ensure that we have these wordings right in view of the sheer volume of use, with 200,000 uses of {{uw-vandalism1}} and another 150,000 uses of {{uw-unsourced1}}. That said, consensus for changing the wordings is rarely reached as seen in previous discussions here, such as this and this, and it will be pointed out that the wordings were extensively tested by WMF (details here): Noyster (talk), 09:51, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
Great! More bureaucracy and grief. Thanks for the reply, but I think it'll just be easier for me to continue changing the wording manually after I add the template, instead of dancing in this circus just to request such a minor and obvious improvement. Good work everyone, carry on... - theWOLFchild 11:23, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
For editors who prefer not to offer to deal with any comeback themselves, or don't like the wording for any other reason, they may always set up an amended template for their own use: just copy over the code of the existing template, amend the wording to taste, and save as a user subpage: Noyster (talk), 13:54, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
That's something I was considering last night before I turned in/off, but thanks for the tip. Cheers - theWOLFchild 19:01, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
This reminds me that I usually avoid using level-1 templates, starting with level-2, for this reason. There are exceptions where I want to invite discussion on my user page, but I often find it unproductive for blatant vandalism warnings. —PaleoNeonate – 08:54, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
I've actually noticed that quite a few editors go straight to the second level templates, and I imagine that in most cases it's for the same reason we've mentioned here. People aren't interested in inviting drama to their own talk pages just because they volunteered some of their time to help the project and clean up the vandalism. I did notice that the Template:Uw-nor1 notice doesn't invite people back to the posters talk page, and yet the project survives. Still not sure why the other notices can't follow suit. John of Reading has become silent on the subject. Anyway... we're up to 4 out of 840, we're really rolling now! - theWOLFchild 15:40, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
@Thewolfchild: I imagine 4 out of 840 is about as far as this is going to go without attracting some attention first. Maybe you could start an RfC on removing the invitation to the warning user's talk page from all the level 1 templates? Any arguments for one apply to the others, and I see that this is in every one that I checked (just the first few that stood out on the page admittedly). This really would require some broader consensus. —DIYeditor (talk) 21:51, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
I'm surprised it got this many replies. I'll think about doing an RfC, but I have feeling it would be a waste of time. Thanks for the replies though... - theWOLFchild 21:59, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

impromptu straw poll[edit]

  • Support removal of invitation to user talk page from level 1 warning templates. I think this is actually an interesting question since it appears in some of the most sensitive level 1 warnings but not the others. A "tech" RfC might not get much more attention than this section has already but if it were advertised as well in Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals) I'm sure it would get a response. —DIYeditor (talk) 22:51, 14 January 2018 (UTC)
  • support removing to come to "my" talk page. I often change to "leave a message below", which I think is better, but the HelpDesk is better than "my talk page". Jytdog (talk) 03:17, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Support (as requester) woohoo, we're off to the races... - theWOLFchild 06:21, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Support per my comment above. —PaleoNeonate – 08:19, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Oppose There are those among us who deprecate the whole practice of sending templated messages via Twinkle. Myself, I think the system is a great time-saver; but the anti-template case is strengthened if we seem to want to delegate to someone else the task of dealing with any feedback. Why shouldn't we even offer to explain or justify our own actions? As far as I know the present messages are not causing anyone's talk page to be overwhelmed with constant vandalism: Noyster (talk), 17:26, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
One thing I noticed (from experience when I used level-1) is that it also encourages editors to debate on personal user pages instead of at the relevant article's talk page (so I had to redirect discussions). Justification is usually already done via edit summaries with a relevant link to policy, style guide, etc. —PaleoNeonate – 10:16, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
Oh and the template should ideally be chosen to give a good idea of what was wrong of course... —PaleoNeonate – 10:17, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
Agree, and to reply to Noysters point, I actually use the optional comment sections often and write addition information. I also ensure every talk page has a 'welcome' template, and if it doesn't, I add one and direct the user to read thru it. And I will say again, we sign these notices with links to our talk pages. If the user wants to contact us directly, and not about an article issue, then our tp is a click away. This express invite is simply not needed and the notice would be better served if the user was directed to someplace more beneficial to them, like the help desk, or the teahouse, or the ref desk, or the pump, or the bah-zillion links in the welcome template that could address more specific issues. Thus far, I have not seen one, solid reason to not make this change, other than "I don't want to". But if you "deprecate" the use of these notices in the first place, what do you care what they say? - theWOLFchild 14:06, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

@John of Reading: Hi, as you can see, there was a discussion and now consensus in support of the change I proposed. So if you see that done, it would be appreciated. Thanks - theWOLFchild 07:54, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

@Thewolfchild: I have no experience in evaluating a consensus. I have re-activated the edit request so that other template editors or admins will look at it. -- John of Reading (talk) 08:19, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
@John of Reading: -This has now been up for 27 days... is there really a need to drag this out any further? I followed your request, a number of editors responded, a straw poll shows a consensus in favour of the change. This is why you have template editor tool (and anyone having this tool should be able to "evaluate" a simple and obvious consensus). Please drop the WP:STICK already and make the change the community has asked for. Thank you. - theWOLFchild 17:39, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
@Thewolfchild: I no longer have the right to edit this template. -- John of Reading (talk) 20:03, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
@John of Reading: Wow. That's, um... a little dramatic. But still, probably for the best. Anyhow, best of luck to you in your future editing endeavors. - theWOLFchild 22:44, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

OK, so... is there a template editor here, that still has his or her rights, that can make this change now? Please? - theWOLFchild 23:06, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and made the change. Best, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 23:14, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
Thanks & Cheers - theWOLFchild 23:20, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
  • I did not notice this proposal until after the change was made, since I don't follow this talk page. Nevertheless, I would like to register an oppose and would ask that this be reverted. If the purpose of this is to reduce riff raff, wouldn't this just move the riff raff from one location to another? I fear this change would actually invite vandalism to an even more highly visible location (the Help Desk surely has more people watching it than your average user talk page). Moreover, I think Noyster has it right when they point out that editors using these warnings should be prepared to justify them when asked, and while this new wording does not directly preclude that, it seems to discourage it by pointing to a different location where questions about the warning should sent. In other words, I'm afraid this new wording gives the impression, "If you think I made a mistake, go complain about it elsewhere."
    The least problematic solution is to keep on doing what has always worked: If a new user asks you a question because of this template, help the user by responding to the question yourself. If a vandal decides to vandalize your talk page because of this template, just take the two seconds to click the rollback button. So far, however, user talk pages have not been overwhelmed with vandalism because of this template. Mz7 (talk) 00:30, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
    • Just to add, I also think it's a mistake to assume that new editors automatically know how to contact other users via a user talk page. It may not be obvious to new editors that the "(talk)" button in signatures is a page where you can contact that editor (yes, this seems like it should be common sense to us experienced editors, but believe me, new editors don't necessarily know this), and as a matter of fact, some editors have customized their signatures so that they either don't contain a link to their user talk page or it's less conspicuous. I just don't see this as the "win-win" that others above do because it unnecessarily makes the discussion process more confusing for the new editors we send this warning to. Mz7 (talk) 00:43, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
Perhaps that the removal of the invitation would be better than redirecting it. One issue that I noticed is that the changes were only done for some of the warnings (i.e. uw-vandal1 but not uw-pov1). It's possible that the change was done too hastily. I support reverting the change for now until a clear consensus can be assessed (~30 days+ discussion), then to if necessary update all relevant level-1 templates for consistency. These have been this way for a while and it's not a critical enough issue to require an urgent fix. Another recently discussed aspect was welcome messages. I have noticed that some templates automatically include a welcome message along if none exists (CSD if I remember); I'm not sure if this is doable for level-1 templates. But if so, it's another aspect to consider, where the chosen welcome message and level-1 template wording could be complementary. Of course, I also remember of editors finding that welcoming a vandal is ridiculous, keeping them independent allows contextual judgement (just like avoiding level-1 and skipping to level-2 is already possible)... —PaleoNeonate – 00:49, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
Well, I would have to oppose any revert of the changes made. This was not "hastily" done, this was posted here for an entire month. We had a consensus and the change was made. We can't just go around undoing every change made by a group just because one person came late and decided they don't like it. What would be the point in ever having discussions and forming consensus in the first place , if a single person can undo it all? I suggest the change remain in place for a minimum 120 days, during which time a wider section of the community can use the template, take notice of the change, and if they have any concerns, post them here. When that time period is up, we can re-visit the issue then, if there is enough feedback to warrant it. - theWOLFchild 02:27, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
Additional note: to address Mz7's specific comments; Please read the entire discussion. There is no effect of "shifting the riff raff from one place to another", and no... this isn't something that has "always" worked. The fact is, our signatures are attached to these templates, with our usernames and a direct link to our talk page. The additional, express invitation is not only redundant, but can be counter-productive. Users who are here solely to vandalize, aren't going to follow any invitations anywhere (except perhaps to vandalize the talk pages of those who just templated them). Users who are knowledgeable enough, will go to our talk pages if they so desire, and users who aren't even knowledgeable enough to do that, should be directed to the help desk. Are you manning your talk page 24/7, ready to help someone who comes along with questions? The help desk is the better venue. Further, people here commented that they specifically skipped the first level template because of the invite and went straight to the second level to avoid inviting people to their talk pages, especially vandals. I have noticed this on numerous IP user talk pages... second level warnings with no first level notice preceding it. I used to do the same thing, then I started re-wording the message afterword, to remove the invite. This is a clear improvement to the template, that can only help the more inexperienced users, and reduce talk page vandalism. There is no 'downside' here. Of course, the only way to prove or disprove this is to leave it be and see. - theWOLFchild 02:47, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
If an editor feels that their contribution was incorrectly reverted, it is more appropriate for them to contact the user who reverted their edit, rather than post the issue to the help desk. (And it's an unnecessarily roundabout solution to require them to first ask at the help desk "How can I contact this user?" if they can't find where the user talk page is.)
If we are skipping level 1 because the vandalism was particularly egregious, then that's okay – that's common practice. However, if we are skipping level 1 on test edits or other minor vandalism just because we don't want to invite the user to contact us, I would argue that we need to adjust our behavior, rather than the template. If we are skipping level 1 because we are concerned that it would invite the user to vandalize our talk pages, then using the very same logic, wouldn't changing the link invite the user to vandalize the help desk (which might even be a more appealing target)?
In the end, I don't think this is the most pressing of issues facing the encyclopedia, so I'm not sure whether the 30-day RfC is necessary (and I apologize for using so many words already). I just wanted to note that I think the template was better before the change. Mz7 (talk) 03:31, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────There is nothing stopping anyone from contacting an editor that has templated them. But if they don't even know the basics of following a link to a user talk page from a signature, then they are better served at the help desk. If this leads someone to vandalize the help desk, aren't they more likely and quickly to be blocked by an admin, than if they vandalize a user talk page that the user might not even see for days? And, no... it's not "okay" to just skip to level two, not if it's the person's first misstep. They should receive a level one notice and now they are more likely to. Lastly, there is an "optional message" box in the template. You can use that invite level one vandals directly to your talk page anytime you like. But seriously, I don't see why we would want to steer people in need of help away from the help desk? I don't see the benefit in that. - theWOLFchild 04:10, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

New warning template(s) for addition of random characters?[edit]

Basically, I'm suggesting templatafying this example, which I typed by hand instead of substituting a template. Care to differ or discuss with me? The Nth User 03:27, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Seems like that is covered by "test edits"? If it were to be added as a new template I think it should be "stray characters", not random, because often in these cases it's not random. And it could invite the user to read instructions for new editors. —DIYeditor (talk) 03:49, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, that sounds like a good idea. Care to differ or discuss with me? The Nth User 03:57, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
This seems like it’s already covered by either disruptive editing or plain old vandalism. I don’t see a need to start micro-parsing what kind of disruptive editing a person is doing, if they add random gibberish to an article, they know they aren’t helping. Beeblebrox (talk) 04:04, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
Originally I was going to say test edits, vandalism or disruptive editing but I think the last two have an apparent intent whereas what was cited here, and is often the case with these stray character/gibberish situations, is that it looks like the user just didn't know how to edit or what appropriate changes would be. What usually seems to have happened is that the user got the edit box with a bunch of source code in it, started typing somewhere with some not-entirely-apparent goal in mind, and ended up with garbage. In the spirit of not biting newbies I think the relevant template could go further in directing them to help pages. —DIYeditor (talk) 05:27, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
If there is no clear intent of vandalism do we really need to leave a "warning" at all? Jeh (talk) 17:43, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

New Template Suggestion: Use of another Wikipedia article as a source[edit]

Recently, I've come across a few edits where a new editor or IP tries to adds a source, but the source is to another Wikipedia article, like this. I couldn't find a pre-written template explaining why they shouldn't do that, so I wrote them an explanation myself, but it seems like we could use a better, official template for the issue. Egsan Bacon (talk) 00:31, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

I wouldn't object to such a template, especially if it could be incorporated into Twinkle. Maybe just a single-level notification versus multi-tier; I don't think I've ever had to issue multiples for this, and if I did, it would likely fall under disruptive editing in any case. DonIago (talk) 17:21, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
I concur with the need for such a Template. We do need to make it clear that this applies to Wikipedias in other languages too. - BilCat (talk) 17:30, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
Or maybe one generally about unreliable sources, mentioning self-published and user-contributed material like wikis (including Wikipedia)... After a quick look I see a warning about unsourced content, but not one about unreliable sources. —PaleoNeonate – 18:04, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
Actually {{uw-unsourced1}} and its successors say "you didn't provide a reliable source", so it would be possible to use this with the Additional text parameter to add something like "Sorry, we don't consider other Wikipedia articles to be a reliable source: please see this page for more explanation": Noyster (talk), 18:29, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
It would still be helpful to have a dedicated template for the issue to avoid having to type additional text, for various reasons. - BilCat (talk) 18:44, 23 January 2018 (UTC)
This seems like a good idea. If there's more consensus I'll make the template. — Preceding unsigned comment added by AnAwesomeArticleEditor (talkcontribs) 16:39, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

NOR1 and others perhaps overly-welcoming?[edit]

Template:uw-nor1 currently begins with "Welcome to Wikipedia. We welcome and appreciate your contributions, but we cannot accept original research..." I think it's a little sloppy that we have the word 'welcome' twice in five words. Any support for changing the following sentence to simply read "We appreciate your contributions..."?

Not sure how many other templates may currently have the same issue, but would there be support for updating any others in this manner as well? DonIago (talk) 04:27, 27 January 2018 (UTC)

None of these template messages should have "Welcome to Wikipedia" on them. Every talk page should have a 'welcome message' template added at the top (graphical is my preference), at least in the beginning. If anyone goes to a talk page to post a template warning and there is not 'welcome' message, then they should add one. (I always do) I actually think this should be written into the guidelines, or perhaps just have it so that anytime a new account makes it's first edit, the talk page automatically has a welcome message added to it. I think it would be beneficial to both the new user and the project. Also, IP user talk pages often have the 'shared IP' template added, which is another welcome message. So, no... these messages don't need to say 'welcome'. (my .02¢) - theWOLFchild 08:05, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
Perhaps this could be incorporated into Twinkle's logic? DonIago (talk) 10:18, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
If it's built into TW then there should be an opt-out checkmark. When the only edit history is several instances of clearly intended vandalism, or worse, "welcome" is inappropriate. Revert, Block, Ignore. Jeh (talk) 17:48, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
Strong support. There are cases where the user isn't a newbie but L1 is appropriate. I'd like to see this change made (or I could do it myself — wp:Be bold.) —AnAwesomeArticleEditor (talk
) 21:41, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
@Jeh: When the only edit history is several instances of clearly intended vandalism, or worse, "welcome" is inappropriate. - Completely disagree. By adding the 'welcome' template, it shows we've made an effort to inform, and maybe even convert, a would-be vandal. At the very least, it eliminates the excuse "I didn't know", which some very pro-AGF admins buy from time to time. And, that's just for registered accounts. 'Welcome' templates are even more crucial for IP accounts because there could be, and often is, multiple users on the others end. One might be a vandal, but the next guy could be someone completely inexperienced, but well-intended, that could obviously benefit from the 'welcome' message and all the included links. - theWOLFchild 22:57, 27 January 2018 (UTC)
Seconded. —PaleoNeonate – 16:14, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
Having recently received the equivalent of a trouting by an admin for essentially not having been as nice to a new, non-IP editor as the admin thought I maybe could have been, I'm forced to agree as well. I neglected to point out that they'd just templated a regular in the process, figuring that merely deleting their message was the best course. DonIago (talk) 17:26, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
We've gone well beyond the original proposal to remove two words from one template (which I support), but I'd just point out that we already have {{welcometest}}, {{welcomevandal}}, {{welcomeunsourced}} and others, which combine a welcome with a telling-off: Noyster (talk), 23:55, 28 January 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for the support, and the acknowledgment that we've drifted off-topic a bit. Nobody seems to be opposed to the edit I proposed, but I'll give it a few more days before I make or request any formal changes. DonIago (talk) 03:39, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

I've edited the NOR1 template as nobody seemed to have any objection to that. I didn't see any others that had the issue with duplicate uses of "welcome". Happy to continue the discussion of whether a welcome template should be added when a user warning is the first thing being added to a user talk page (that seems to be what we're getting at?), but that wasn't really my initiative. Cheers. DonIago (talk) 01:08, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

Template-protected edit request on 14 February 2018[edit]

This template has a missing end tag for <div> and the </div> is misplaced; it doesn't close the <div> tag and is therefore stripped. Anomalocaris (talk) 10:11, 14 February 2018 (UTC)

@Anomalocaris: would you please demonstrate the fix you want in Template:Uw-ublock/sandbox? — xaosflux Talk 20:32, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
Xaosflux: The two lint errors were external to {{Uw-ublock}}. Sorry for wasting your time. —Anomalocaris (talk) 22:03, 14 February 2018 (UTC)


I'm wondering a slight tweaking of the wording of Template:uw-non-free by be needed. As currently worded, the second sentence is "We always appreciate when users upload files.", but this template is often used (at least by me) to also notify users inappropriately adding non-free files to articles as well even when they are not the original uploader of the file. There've been a few cases where I've used this template, when the response has been basically of a "I did not upload the file, so this does not apply to me" nature. If I've been misusing this template, it was totally done in good faith and I'll stop using it in such cases. However, tweaking the second sentence to something like "We always appreciate when users upload files or add them to articles." The current third sentence in the template does mention "or added to a page", but some people seem to only read as far as sentence 2.

While it's true that many non-free files have problems right from the start and the uploader is the person to notify, these mostt often have to do with WP:FCSD and can be resolved using those CSD templates. Many non-free files are actually fine for their original intended use, but problems arise when other editors start adding them to other articles where non-free might not be justified. Anyway, tweaking this template is just a suggestion. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:32, 16 February 2018 (UTC)