Template talk:Veganism and vegetarianism

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Writers[edit]

I've removed the writers' section at least twice, but it keeps being restored. It is making the template too long, so that it now has to be collapsed in articles. Lots of people write about vegetarianism and veganism nowadays so it really makes no sense to include them. Someone could create a list or category and we could add a link to that instead. Sarah (talk) 01:10, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

What's the criteria for people or into the "Physicians, academics" section? Would: George_Jacobs_(educator,_vegan) fit in? --Never stop exploring (talk) 14:34, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
It would be good to keep that section devoted to scientists and other academics notable for their focus on vegetarianism or veganism, not just people who've written about it among other issues or who've published recipe books. Sarah (talk) 15:15, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
Sorry, when I wrote those last few words I didn't realize that Jacobs's involvement is to have written recipe books! I apologize if that came across as snark directed at him personally. I meant only that lots of people do this nowadays, and if we were to include all the ones with articles, the template would be very long. So my thinking is to restrict it to people who are notable for focusing on vegetarianism/veganism, and/or who are known for having made some kind of difference to the way people eat or view these issues. Sarah (talk) 23:21, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
No problem, how about creating a complete list of Vegetarian writers and include more, but only select a few or just the list-article for that topic? If everyone is doing films about vegetarians, we can always do a list :) --huggi - never stop exploring (talk) 13:25, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Films[edit]

Hi, what are the requirements to add Films to the template? I added some of the local favourites to the Vegetarian Society (Singapore) article, but I don't like to create redundant content and films are a global thing. Trying to understand the concept, please help. Referenced article: Vegetarian_Society_(Singapore)#Films_about_Vegetarianism_.28selection_only.29 --Never stop exploring (talk) 01:57, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Hi Huggi, I think any films about vegetarianism and veganism would be okay to add, so long as we have articles on them. If it gets to the point where we have too many, we can think again, but for now it should be okay to add them. Sarah (talk) 17:45, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Plant-Based missing?[edit]

Plant-based diet as a term should appear in this template somewhere or it should be the name of the template. A simple Google Search of the term "Plant Based Diet" led to "About 13,800,000 results":

-Classicfilms (talk) 00:54, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, I added the page onto the template and the template to the page. The page itself is little more than a stub, and could easily be merged into the Vegetarian article, and the name redirected to it. Will take a look at it some time soon. Randy Kryn 14:44, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
Hi Randy, that's not a stub, but a dab page, so it ought not to have the template on it. The problem with the term "plant-based diet" is that those who use it do so inconsistently, so it has come to mean all things to all people: veganism, vegetarianism, semi-vegetarianism. I believe it's mostly used now to imply a diet with little meat, i.e. semi-vegetarian. The best thing might be to leave it as a dab page, which is probably the most informative option for readers. Sarah (talk) 15:02, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
I don't know if I quite agree with you Sarah regarding the lack of a definition. The phrase "Plant-Based" is used as an umbrella term to describe a variety of approaches that emphasize plants. Before the references were removed the other day from the "Plant-Based Diet" page, there was a highly respectable reliable source from Kaiser Permanente's medical journal -
Here is a quote from the section of the article titled "Definitions of Plant-Based Diets":
"The following is a brief summary of typical diets that restrict animal products. A key distinction is that although most of these diets are defined by what they exclude, the plant-based diet is defined by what it includes. Vegan (or total vegetarian): Excludes all animal products, especially meat, seafood, poultry, eggs, and dairy products. Does not require consumption of whole foods or restrict fat or refined sugar. Raw food, vegan: Same exclusions as veganism as well as the exclusion of all foods cooked at temperatures greater than 118°F. Lacto-vegetarian: Excludes eggs, meat, seafood, and poultry and includes milk products. Ovo-vegetarian: Excludes meat, seafood, poultry, and dairy products and includes eggs. Lacto-ovo vegetarian: Excludes meat, seafood, and poultry and includes eggs and dairy products. Mediterranean: Similar to whole-foods, plant-based diet but allows small amounts of chicken, dairy products, eggs, and red meat once or twice per month. Fish and olive oil are encouraged. Fat is not restricted. Whole-foods, plant-based, low-fat: Encourages plant foods in their whole form, especially vegetables, fruits, legumes, and seeds and nuts (in smaller amounts). For maximal health benefits this diet limits animal products. Total fat is generally restricted."
It fits the definition of MOS:LIST more than it does WP:MOSDAB and in fact I believe we should make the change. -Classicfilms (talk) 15:36, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
I should add that the references were rightly removed from the Plant - Based page because there is now a style guide rule that states that DAB pages should not have refs (which didn't exist when we first discussed the matter on the talk page a few years ago). However, Lists do not not prohibit refs, a reason why this page should be transitioned over to a List. The fact that Randy was confused as to what the page is indicates that we need to clarify how the Wikipedia discusses the term "Plant Based." -Classicfilms (talk) 15:41, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
Refs have never been added to dab pages; that's not a new thing. As your ref indicates, the diet is all things to all people. It can exclude or include meat, but is also often used to mean veganism, i.e. no animal products at all. Sarah (talk) 15:57, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
Well, we did have this discussion a few years ago and that point never came up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Plant-based_diet/Archive_1#Convert_to_article_plus_reference

Now that it has, the page should be moved to a list so that we can add sources such as the one above. "Vegan" is but one term that falls under the umbrella "Plant Based" and that is something that the Wikipedia should reflect with the numerous sources out there. There really isn't a good reason to keep it as a DAB as opposed to a List. -Classicfilms (talk) 16:03, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

(unindent) I have started an RFC on the Plant - Based page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Plant-based_diet#RfC:_Should_this_article_remain_a_Disambiguation_page.3F -Classicfilms (talk) 16:14, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Poll: Plant-based diet[edit]

I wanna do a poll about Plant-based diet in the template "Veganism and vegetarianism".

Question: As it is not strict vegan or vegetarian, I would like to ask the following question: Removing the semi-vegetarianism section, because it's not related to the topic "Vegetarianism or Veganism" at all? Thanks for your feedback on this. --huggi - never stop exploring (talk) 02:36, 24 August 2015 (UTC) - edited: initially I wanted to add the Plant-based diet, but I support Randy Kryn idea to remove the entire section, if we can find another template to "host" the section: "Semi-vegetarian".

In the 1990s and up to the T. Colin Campbell quotes from 2005 which are quoted in the article, the words 'plant-based diet' was another name for a vegetarian diet. Wikipedia has led in changing that, so it seems that the term can now mean something to do with meat eating. That aside, I'd suggest that, in place of thinking about adding that page to the template, that it and the entire section "Semi-vegetarian" be removed. This template contains links to data about veganism and vegetarianism, so articles concerning these subject's polar opposite - diets which include meat - really have nothing in common with the topic. Thanks for this consideration as well. Randy Kryn 3:08, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
Randy Kryn, I agree with you on the topic of removing the entire section (so I changed the poll) anyway. But in terms of knowledge to the reader, I disagree because where would you see "semi-vegetarianism" elsewhere on Wikipedia? I just had a quick look at: Carnivore and they don't use any template. And because of my personal history I will not add anything like this to the Template:Meat. But maybe you have another creative idea on this? --huggi - never stop exploring (talk) 03:57, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
They all would fit well on the meat template, and yesterday I added 'Plant based diet' to it (if I'm remembering correctly). The term 'Semi-vegetarian' refers to someone who eats meat, and doesn't really, if we were fairly looking at a vegetarian and vegan template as an accurate template, pertain to those subjects. Just because 'vegetarian' is part of its common name doesn't mean it has anything to do with vegetarianism. Randy Kryn 4:06, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
Let's see what others say. And than we should ask the Template:Meat guys, before adding it there :) --huggi - never stop exploring (talk) 04:21, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
We haven't permanently removed semi-vegetarianism from the template for reasons that have already been discussed; see Template talk:Veganism and vegetarianism/Archive 1#Semi-vegetarianism. Stating that semi-vegetarianism has nothing to do with vegetarianism is false; it has more to do with vegetarianism than with meat-eating. Semi-vegetarianism is indeed one of the perspectives of vegetarianism, which is why it belongs on this template in the Perspectives field. Vegetarians comment on semi-vegetarianism, with some supporting it and some objecting to it. And then there people who are semi-vegetarian, but consider themselves vegetarian (as in the case of some pescetarians, since fish is commonly stated not to be meat). Again, see the archived discussion I linked to. And since that discussion included me, Randy Kryn and Viriditas, I have WP:Pinged Viriditas to this discussion. Flyer22 (talk) 06:34, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
Regarding that earlier discussion, I will now go add Eric Andre to the Anne Hathaway template if I can find it. If the section is kept, then with the present definition of 'Plant based diet' (the earliest source on that page is 2005, and there are plenty from the early 1990s which have yet to be heard from) that's where it should go. As for the entry 'Pescetarians', I've actually met people who eat fish who think they are vegetarian, but Wikipedia does not have to give their misunderstanding of English any attention even if there is a source that claims it-is-so (like a source claiming the Lincoln Memorial is actually the Jefferson Memorial, we don't have to give it weight). I'll continue to argue that the term "semi-vegetarian" has nothing to do with the topic of this template, and like a boat listed on an airplane template, it can only hope to someday fly. Randy Kryn 12:34, 24 August 2015 (UTC)
I stand by everything I've stated on this matter, per what WP:Reliable sources state. Just like we address semi-vegetarianism in the Vegetarianism article, for reasons that should be clear to anyone via the text and sources, it should be addressed on this template. Flyer22 (talk) 08:12, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
Please reread my above comment. Realizing that the section will be kept on the template, my main point then became, after expressing surprise and ranting that the term vegetarian has degraded so much lately (I haven't read the books or the literature in a long time), is that the article "Plant-based diet" should be placed in that section. That term, would you believe it, in the last few years is now becoming defined as a diet which can include meat, so it should apparently now be included in the "Semi-vegetarian" section.
But, ranting not quite over, what about placing all of the Semi-vegetarian items, including Semi-vegetarian and plant-based diet, in a "Related" section (except the fish eating vegetarians link, is that even related?) I guess it just looks strange now, with an entire section named 'Semi-vegetarian', which includes a link to the encyclopedic data about the fish, lobster, crab and oyster eating vegetarians, so near the top of the Vegan and vegetarian template. It's like apples and oranges-with-bacon. Randy Kryn 16:00, 25 August 2015 (UTC)
You're saying "plant-based diet" should be listed under "Semi-vegetarianism"? I don't agree, since "plant-based diet" is usually defined to the exclusion of meat. Flyer22 (talk) 07:43, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
"A plant-based diet is a diet of any animal (including humans) based on foods derived from plants, including vegetables, whole grains, legumes and fruits, but with few or no animal products." (with 3 resources stated on Plant-based diet. A few or no animal products means no vegetarianism or veganism possible. Therefore I suggest and agree with Randy Kryn to include it in the Semi-vegetarianism section because it is not exclusively animal free like vegetarianism/veganism. Or do you use other references for this? Thanks! --huggi - never stop exploring (talk) 07:56, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Draft with Types of Vegetarianism: Types of Vegetarianism (fulltime/part-time)

We're talking about grouping things or put things into a class. Because of this, there might be a logic requirement of defining the types of vegetarianism before we group them, as the current article Vegetarianism#Varieties is a bit "diluted" from my POV.

Vegetarians could be divided into two categories in fulltime (eats no meat, +vegan no animal products) and part-time (eats meat at times) treatment:

  • Fulltime vegetarians (also called "hard", "closed", "strict", or "permanent vegetarians"): Template:Cite required
  • Part-time vegetarians (also called "soft", "open", "empirical", or "temporal vegetarians"): Template:Cite required

That's all on that view-point for now. --huggi - never stop exploring (talk) 01:20, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Draft to group: Semi-vegetarianism (came up after the types of vegetarianism) is the Perspective of Veganism and vegetarianism:

(#1: unmentioned here, the one without ovo, lacto, but maybe honey consumption - if you don't agree, let's leave it for the moment)

BUT we're discussion the Semi (meaning "half", not full, <99,999%) vegetarians (which is listed above) with a Non-denominational (religions) and cultural view. I will explain why each article (of course my POV) belongs here:

Reason to list the following articles here is mainly because of:

  • the dimension of Time (half means, it can be Part-time) and
  • the dimension of Circumstance (it is allowed to eat Meat and of course there is no food police who controls that)
    • Economic vegetarianism: The motivation to be economic vegetarian is depending on financial aspects. If the person has enough money, they cannot become an economic-veggie? Of course if you include Sustainability then it's already another dimension. Besides sustainability I'm not aware of any other rule, saying a economic vegetarian cannot eat meat.
    • Environmental vegetarianism: The motivation to be environmental vegetarian is the environment. If the environment is okay no need to be support it anymore? Of course if you include Sustainability then it's already another dimension. Besides sustainability I'm not aware of any other rule, saying a environmental vegetarian cannot eat meat.
    • Vegetarianism and religion I have to admit, that I had a complete different view before I was traveling the world. As of my understanding there is no world religion (which is practiced by a large amount of people, notable) which requires or excludes people who are not 100% vegetarian or even vegan (correct me if I'm wrong). My take on Vegetarianism and religion is, that 99% of these people are part-time vegetarians.

That's all on that view-point POV for now. --huggi - never stop exploring (talk) 01:20, 27 August 2015 (UTC)