Template talk:Video game consoles

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years[edit]

I like the way the earlier templates show the time periods encompassed by the generations. It's helpful to show because the navigation is largely according to time. I made an example at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2013 August 14/consoles-with-years. —rybec 20:51, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

It's unnecessary - this is a navigation template - not an article. --Rob Sinden (talk) 09:16, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
It would aid navigation, especially for readers who aren't familiar with the generations. The previous set of templates included this information. The way I added the years doesn't look cluttered. —rybec 02:46, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
Navboxes are not supposed to include additional information and clutter (although far too many do). It's in chronological order, with the different consoles shown per generation, so I can't see what benefit adding the years would give. That information is available at the articles. --Rob Sinden (talk) 08:04, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
I know this is dated but I like the years in it's current format since it's helpful but compact. However can anyone explain the basis for the years of the generations? Third and fourth generation both run until 2003 and maybe the case can be made that the SNES was still relevent but NES in 2003? c'mon. Maybe it should be based on an aggregate of the peak sales or something: i.e. if from 1989-1996 SNES, Genesis, etc had the most sales (either in consoles or games) then in 1998 the 32-bit/64-bit systems took over the lead until 2003 then those would be the generations. This is just one suggestion, any metric would be better than it's current form though. 3rd (8-bit) should be like '84-'92, 4th (16-bit) should be around '91-'97, 5th (32/64 bit) should be '96-'02, 6th gen should be '01-'08, 7th would be '07-'13 this portion is just my personal feeling but it's clearer than the current years. The current year scheme doesn't help those less familiar with video game history and gives the impression that the NES and Genesis were as relevant in 2002 as N64 and PS2 and they weren't. The last major releases for the NES were around, what, '94? there may have been other irrelevant 8-bit releases or consoles in 2002 but that doesn't mean it mattered in the broad view of things.
I don't want to just change the years without a good grounding and new basis for how the years should be so if anyone else has thoughts or wants to get the ball rolling I think that'd be great.
Tunafizzle (talk) 06:31, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
The years come from the generation articles themselves, the template simply reflects that. I would think that the appropriate venue is to discuss at the article talk pages for the particular generations you think should be changed. -- ferret (talk) 12:20, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

inclusion of Zeebo[edit]

The sources in its article describe it as a gaming console, and partially support its inclusion in the "seventh generation":

  • Wired "Does the world really need a fourth gaming console?"
  • ZD Net "[...] a contrast to more expensive, higher-end devices such as the Nintendo Wii and Sony PS3. [...] analysts think Zeebo will not pose a threat to existing consoles, instead creating a complementary market."
  • Cnet "You probably are familiar with today's leading video game consoles: the Nintendo Wii, Xbox 360, and the PlayStation 3. But a fourth console of this generation, Zeebo, might matter more."

It's described in History_of_video_game_consoles_(seventh_generation)#Home_Consoles_2 and has been categorised in Category:Seventh-generation video game consoles. —rybec 17:18, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

I have already readded it. Before the generation templates were merged this was discussed on the 7th generation template page (Template talk:Seventh generation game consoles) and the consensus was clearly in favor of including Zeebo since there were reliable sources calling it one and those opposing inclusion were never able to find any sources to the contrary nor any evidence to back their other arguments. Unless there has been a recent discussion overturning the results of the older discussion Zeebo should not have been removed in the first place.--64.229.164.69 (talk) 01:51, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
remove it, it doesnt use CDs or physical media. Then i could say that Steambox are also a console and other adroid devices --Crossswords (talk) 13:17, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
Neither of those, CDs or physical media, are requirements for a video game console. This has been rehashed multiple times and the reliable sources have enough coverage that Zeebo got included. SteamBox currently does not have similar support with reliable sources. -- ferret (talk) 14:40, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
Agreed, the main issue here is reliable sources not media. If enough quality sources can be found to support either the Steambox or Android devices as being an X generation console I would not object to their additions either.--69.157.253.160 (talk) 22:32, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

major?[edit]

The new inclusion criterion is vague. —rybec 08:32, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

CPS changer?[edit]

Should this really be included in the list of consoles? Isn't it more of a device for playing arcade games? 76.226.123.180 (talk) 21:04, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Inclusion of Steam Machines[edit]

Not quite sure that Steam Machines fit into the definition of a console, given that unlike traditional consoles, the specifications vary widely from box to box. At its core, a steam machine is just a pre-built PC with off-the-shelf components, whereas something like the PS4 has tailored silicon. Accophox (talk) 12:26, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

It's not released yet, and only mentioned in passing at the generation article. I'd say remove it. --Rob Sinden (talk) 12:40, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Removed, it's simply a family of PCs.--Vaypertrail (talk) 22:16, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

HyperScan[edit]

HyperScan needs sources that name it as a 7th Generation console to be included here. Being released in the same time period isn't how the template is currently organized, as most systems released during the time frame are excluded.

Zeebo is listed because there's multiple sources that specifically refer to it as 7th generation. -- ferret (talk) 14:56, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Oh, wonderful, so you suggest we should just omit it entirely? Makes perfect sense to me. After all, consoles obviously need to qualify to be on a template here. Personally I don't get why consoles are being removed from here due to lack of sources when their time of release fits in with the designated generation. Where do they go, are they just discarded and not included on this console template even though they're consoles? GG360 (talk) 15:20, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
If you want to add in EVERY console released during these time frames, we're going to have to address a LOT of issues with how the generation articles are organized today. Currently, the generations are NOT defined by time frame, but more by hardware iteration. That's why these systems like HyperScan aren't at the top of the articles, but just a footnote in a table of "Other systems during this time frame." I'm not saying that we shouldn't, simply trying to illustrate why the template is the way it is today. It's an effort to match the template to the generational articles, which do not include the Hyperscan as "7th generation" -- ferret (talk) 16:52, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

Please[edit]

Can we order the consoles to their relase date? because this template is a bit confusing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.56.178.239 (talk) 12:50, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

As opposed to alphabetical? Or as opposed to "generations"? -- ferret (talk) 13:24, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
To the first console of it's generation to the latest console of it's generation

Template[edit]

Since Video game consoles do not just include home consoles like PS3, but also handheld game consoles like PSP etc, I have made a separate template for home consoles at Template:Home video game consoles. This page will be for types and generations of video game consoles in general. --Cartakes (talk) 16:58, 1 November 2014 (UTC)

First we need to solve the inconsistency issues by replacing the template. But after that the format of the template (e.g. divided by generations or by vendor/year etc) can still be discussed. If you have a suggestion please leave a message here. --Cartakes (talk) 17:57, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

How to include Dedicated consoles?[edit]

Continuing a thought I touched on over at WP:VG... The new template, hashed out at WP:VG, includes everything except for the Dedicated consoles. They pose an issue because they are not clearly aligned with the generational releases of hardware, since they often act as a repackaging and rebranding of older generations and game content. The exclusion of dedicated consoles from the "All" parameter means they are not listed in the template at the main video game console article, which doesn't include Template:Dedicated video game consoles either.

Could we solve this by having a Generation=Dedicated so they can be included in? Perhaps the Generation parameter should be renamed slightly, or even not have a name at all and just be "1".

Side note: I've created a microconsole category and populated it, and done some touch ups on Template:Microconsole. I also replaced a lot of Category:Video game consoles with the appropriate generational sub-cat. -- ferret (talk) 00:00, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

A parameter may be acceptable for dedicated consoles, although I think we do need to rename it instead of using Generation=Dedicated, since obviously "Dedicated" is not a generation at all. However, if there is a parameter that can be used to display just dedicated consoles, it should be able to do so for other types of consoles too, in order to be consistent. But of course in such case we don't need more detailed information such as generation or vender etc. --Cartakes (talk) 00:35, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Here's an example to start, from my Sandbox, using a new parameter "Type". I literally just copied the existing list from the Dedicated template in without changing the format: {{User:Ferret/sandbox|Type=Dedicated}}

The only thing I don't like about this approach is if we include other types (Which I'm fine with in principal), we have to manage the list in two places: Both the Generational and Type listings. However, if we do that, the four "type" templates can be changed similar to the generation templates, and all maintenance will occur only at THIS template. -- ferret (talk) 00:42, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Feel free to edit at User:Ferret/sandbox with other ideas, or if you want to go ahead and build in the other 3 types to show how it'd look. -- ferret (talk) 00:45, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
It is indeed quite complicated to include both Generational and Type listings in a single template. But even if it does not include other three types, does not it mean that Template:Dedicated video game consoles does not need to be maintained any more since this template already includes dedicated consoles? --Cartakes (talk) 00:48, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
Yeah. If we stop here, Template:Dedicated video game consoles will no longer need to be maintained. We would have four templates: This one, home, handheld, and micro. -- ferret (talk) 00:53, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
As you may already know, I prefer consistencies. There are four types of video game consoles, the other three types each has its own template, logically dedicated consoles should have its own template too. Similarly if this template supports the listing of only dedicated consoles, it should be able to list each of the other three types too. But of course even if it only lists each of these types, it is less detailed than their own templates, such as vendor information. --Cartakes (talk) 01:02, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

@PresN: any thoughts? I personally lean to include all types here, but that causes the template to have some duplication, such as if a new home console arrives, you have to add it to the Generation list as well as the Type list. However, using two templates results in duplication anyways and the same amount of effort of adding in both places. -- ferret (talk) 01:18, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

I have another idea. How about just include its own template for a given type when a type is specified in this template? For example, when Type=Dedicated is specified, then just include the content of Template:Dedicated video game consoles into this template. Similarly for other three types. --Cartakes (talk) 01:27, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
The information still has to be maintained in two places, just the difference of being twice in one template, or once in two templates. -- ferret (talk) 01:30, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
But you should notice that they are formatted in completely different ways. This template formats content by generations, and each of the four type-specific templates format content by vendors for example. There is probably no easy way to mix them into a single maintenance I think. Both types of formations are useful for users of courses. --Cartakes (talk) 01:35, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
There's no way to automate that formatting, no, but both formats can be stored within this template at once. -- ferret (talk) 02:33, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
Interesting. If all four templates are able to be stored within this template with customizable display, I will be fine with it. Either none or all of them. --Cartakes (talk) 02:39, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
I think that it doesn't look like there's any way around listing most of the consoles twice, in two formats, but I think it's okay given that this template shouldn't change often- most generations are over, after all. I'm fine with type=First giving you the first gen consoles, type=Dedicated giving you the dedicated consoles, type=Handheld giving you the handheld consoles but broken up by maker instead of generation, etc. Type=All should give you gens 1-8 + dedicated, I think, since handheld, home, and micro will all be represented already by the gens. --PresN 04:48, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
Very good. I will certainly agree with this approach. Thanks! --Cartakes (talk) 05:02, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

I have completed adding all four types to the template in this diff of my sandbox. Example usage at this diff. I removed the name of the parameter (Generation), see example usage. I placed the types first, as there shouldn't be any new "types" in the near future, though I could be wrong... while we will expect an eventually 9th and 10th generation, etc, so they are at the bottom for expansion.. When this is implemented, the articles that have two templates (I.e. Wii U with Template:Home video game consoles and Template:Video game consoles will need updated again. The 8 generation templates will need "Generation=" removed. The 4 type templates will need to be pointed here. The type articles (I.e. Dedicated console will need Template:Video game consoles removed. Etc, etc. Please review the example and let me know thoughts. -- ferret (talk) 12:50, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Hate to add another wrinkle, but I've just noticed that the first row of the Dedicated console template matches the first generation row of home consoles. Are they home consoles or dedicated consoles? Maybe just need to rename First Generation "home" to "dedicated" ... I think cleaning up things like this will help us in the long run. Secondly, most of the "modern" dedicated consoles listed in that template do not have the template at their article... -- ferret (talk) 14:11, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
Replying to myself, I know. I'm thinking we add an "Other" generation for those consoles with no clear generation. This allows us to remove "type" from the template. First generation "home consoles" can be renamed to "First generation "dedicated consoles", and the row of "modern" dedicated consoles can go under "Other". Other will also give us a place to add things like SteamOS/Steam Machines, Android TV... Platforms with no exact hardware. -- ferret (talk) 15:10, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
Most of the first-generation consoles are probably indeed dedicated consoles. But how about Magnavox Odyssey and Pong (Home version)? They seem to be described as home consoles. In particular, Magnavox Odyssey is described as the "world's first commercial home video game console". --Cartakes (talk) 23:05, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
Note that all the console articles that have been updated to use the new template system (6th-8th gen and half of fifth) use the redirect templates- "Eighth generation game consoles", etc, so we only need to update those for the new parameter style, not the actual articles. --PresN 17:44, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
All consoles listed in 1st-8th generations have the correct template applied. 1st generation in the template now calls them dedicated consoles, not home consoles. --PresN 20:35, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
What do you think of an "Other" generation for the stragglers? Then we can change the last three templates to be "Generation=All" like the main article and call it done. -- ferret (talk) 20:36, 6 November 2014 (UTC)
Generation=Other is probably a good idea. It lists any consoles unclassified by generations. In such case no "store" of other templates are necessary either. --Cartakes (talk) 22:48, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

I have completed going over all pages that are linked to or used Template:Dedicated video game consoles. I have now changed it to display Generation=All, though maybe it should just be redirected as I have also removed every usage of it... Every article linked to it or including it has been updated with the appropriate Generation=. I also cleaned up their categories a bit.

I had to add a few uses I found to the current article. Two of note: The re-released NES and SNES were marked as dedicated consoles though they were not. I added them here in ()s. Another I found was Game Wave Family Entertainment System which claims to be a 7th gen console, yet doesn't seem to fit as a dedicated or micro console. I didn't want to add it under Home so put it under Other, but feel free to change. -- ferret (talk) 17:42, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure about other sources but Logopedia seems to include Game Wave under home consoles. --Cartakes (talk) 20:26, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Handheld game consoles[edit]

Dedicated and Home are now done. The last remaining area of cleanup and consolidation is usage of Template:Handheld game consoles. It's still included in quite a few places.

Thoughts? -- ferret (talk) 17:51, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Wait, I think Template:Home video game consoles and the other three templates can still exist. They are in a complete different formation than this template and such formation (i.e. by vendor) is still quite useful for readers. There is no need to show other three types of consoles in articles like Home video game console and dedicated console either (a list of all consoles of different types is REALLY long and not useful for such articles). --Cartakes (talk) 18:49, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure there's a require that articles linked on a template must contain that template (And vice versa). So if we keep the 3 separate templates, every article will need both templates (This one, and the type specific). Is that what we want? Because we've been moving away from that so far. -- ferret (talk) 19:20, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
I am not exactly sure whether each article should contain type-specific template as well (we may actually try some samples and see if they work well). However, I think it is really a bad idea to use Generation=All in articles except in very extreme cases. By the way, there are four (not three) separate templates, one for each type. --Cartakes (talk) 19:29, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
Yeah I forgot Microconsole temporarily. :) -- ferret (talk) 19:37, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

In order to examine the template problem, I had a re-look at the articles. Let's take Nintendo 3DS as an example. It contains various templates such as Template:Nintendo 3DS, Template:Nintendo hardware and Template:Eighth generation game consoles. It also belongs to various categories including Category:Nintendo 3DS, Category:Handheld game consoles, Category:Eighth-generation video game consoles and a few others. Ideally I think the templates used in the article should roughly correspond to the categories that the article itself belongs to (except for some minor or unimportant categories I think). For example when an article like GreenBrowser belongs to Category:Web browsers, then it is generally expected that there will be a Web browser template within the article (as there indeed is). Now note that the Nintendo 3DS article belongs to both Category:Handheld game consoles and Category:Eighth-generation video game consoles. Obviously both categories are very useful categories. In this sense both the Handheld game console and the Eighth generation game console templates can exist in the article too. The only problem I think is whether the two templates as will be shown the article actually duplicate each other. But currently they look quite different I believe (especially after the reformation of the home console template), and both of them are useful for readers in different ways too. As it also makes things more consistent (e.g. the requirement mentioned above), I think I lean towards it now. Any other thoughts? --Cartakes (talk) 01:46, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

I have checked the "requirement" as mentioned above. According to Wikipedia:Navigation templates, "Navigation templates provide navigation within Wikipedia. They are intended to link articles to each other. That is, every article listed on a particular navigation template generally has the template placed on its page." To follow this rule we indeed need to put template into each applicable article. --Cartakes (talk) 18:29, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Minor consoles[edit]

I'm currently working on List of handheld game consoles, and when I hit the seventh gen consoles I started seeing a bunch of minor consoles that aren't listed in the template. I added a few (Dingoo A320, GP2X, Pandora, but there's still a bunch more both handheld and home consoles listed at History of video game consoles (seventh generation) and History of video game consoles (eighth generation), not to mention the categories, that aren't in the template. Should we go through and add all these? --PresN 00:03, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I think we need to include everything. The party line in the past was kinda "Only big industry leaders" but the fact is those consoles are (apparently) notable, as they have articles. Some might not survive and AFD, but for now.... -- ferret (talk) 00:15, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Seperation of lists of video game consoles[edit]

I was all for Cartakes seperation of different type of consoles, but i think all the different lists should remain on the same page under different secions. Then we can also include List of million-selling game consoles which belongs together with these lists.GeneticOS (talk) 15:04, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

I personally do not object to merge the list of all different types of video game consoles into a single page. One of main reasons for the separation of the list was that the notice in the top of the List of home video game consoles page explicitly mentions that "Before adding to this list, please note: This list is for home consoles only. Handhelds belong on Handheld game console, if notable". I just managed to make the content to be consistent with the notice (there were actually no handheld game consoles ever appearing in the page either, so I just made some cleanup for other types of consoles). However, whether different types of video game consoles should be listed under different sections of the same page is subject to discussion. If we list video game consoles by generations, then a separation of list for different types of video game consoles into sections within the same article makes the page look messy. --Cartakes (talk) 15:30, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
I agree with your reason for the seperation, however besides for List of home video game consoles and list of handheld game consoles, the other lists are kind of small and shouldn't have a page for themselves. And I'm not suggesting we seperate itby generation then console type, rather just console type, then generation. Especially because home consoles are really the only console with generations and the rest of the consoles being based off of those generations. Also if we do this, we can then move home console add-ons to a small section on this page. GeneticOS (talk) 16:11, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Assuming I'm reading what you wrote right, you're saying that instead of list of home video game consoles, list of handheld game consoles, list of dedicated consoles, and list of microconsoles, they should all just be together in list of video game consoles? I really disagree. Home video game consoles alone is over 100 items, and handheld is going to get up there once I add the ones that don't have their own articles. Dedicated consoles is missing a ton of consoles that aren't notable enough for an article, and even microconsoles has 23 items- it seems small in the format that just lists the name and manufacturer, but in a table like list of handheld video game consoles that actually provides summary information, the whole thing will get to a decent length. If all 4 console lists are in the format I'm using in handhelds, a combined list is going to be supermassive.
I'd rather see List of video game consoles as a summary list, with {{main}} tags to the full lists. Like, the home console sections should have a list/gallery of the top-selling consoles in that section, and the full hundred+ should be listed in the child article. --PresN 19:29, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
PresN, you assumed correctly. However it was only based on the fact that the lists were relatively small. If you plan on expanding them then I agree that they should be left alone in their own respective lists.
Also your plan to turn the List of video game consoles into a summary page, works for me. Currently the page is a bit lacking.— Preceding unsigned comment added by GeneticOS (talkcontribs) 20:07, 13 November 2014‎ (UTC)
Yeah, I'd like to fix up the console lists the way I'm doing the handheld one; it's going to be a long-term project, so any help you guys want to give would be nice. --PresN 21:44, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
PresN I would love to help you out in this project. A while back I started a units sold column in the chart. I saw by the video games talk that Czar was meeting a director of some game museum and asked if anyone wants anything from him. You should ask him if he has data on old vg consoles that isnt so readily available. GeneticOS (talk) 23:32, 13 November 2014 (UTC)
Never mind. I asked czar myself.— Preceding unsigned comment added by GeneticOS (talkcontribs) 23:42, 13 November 2014‎ (UTC)

Another to add...[edit]

Probably should be added next to the GameCube, but stumbled on Panasonic Q today when looking at that PSX article. -- ferret (talk) 01:10, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

And another, that I found reading Handheld game console... Tomytronic 3D. This one is missing templates currently and not sure if it is 2nd or (the only) 3rd generation. The article says both 1982 and 1983 currently. -- ferret (talk) 01:16, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
And another, reading handheld some more, in a similar state as Tomytronic: Bandai LCD Solarpower -- ferret (talk) 01:16, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
And another, from Comparison of handheld game consoles... Epoch Game Pocket Computer seems like it belongs under 3rd generation for sure? I suspect this comparison article has a couple more. -- ferret (talk) 01:24, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Panasonic Q isn't really a console, though, it's a Gamecube with a dvd player attached. We don't include the dozen Sega Genesis+whatever combos that got made as distinct consoles either
  • I'd like to see a source to determine if Tomytronic 3D is a handheld or dedicated console- i.e. is it a console you stuck cartridges in, or did you buy a new set for each game? Definitely needs to be added here, though, either way, I'm just curious to sort out where and if it should be in List of handheld game consoles.
  • Bandai LCD Solarpower is definitely a dedicated console, and should be put in it's place accordingly.
  • Why should Epoch be third gen instead of 2nd (where it is now)? Admittedly figuring that out for the early minor consoles is quite difficult. --PresN 07:52, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
  • Regarding Epoch, I missed that it's already in 2nd gen. However the starting year listed for third gen is 1983, and Epoch's article says 1984 release. -- ferret (talk) 15:30, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Microconsole template discussion at TFD[edit]

Please be aware of of a TFD for the Microconsoles template at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2015 February 18. -- ferret (talk) 18:12, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Zeebo is a home video game console[edit]

See more at Zeebo Talk page[1] where i discuss that Zeebo is not a microconsole, but a home video game console, or at least a different animal. Zeebo is not android based, and doesn't have cloud gaming, therefore it is not a microconsole essentially. I'm changing its status to a home video game console. Charmugen (talk) 17:53, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Respectfully disagree. Zeebo is a low cost download only console system that came out before the term microconsole really was established. It clearly fits the model of a microconsole. The things you've brought up like being Android based or having cloud gaming are not "microconsole" features. -- ferret (talk) 17:56, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
How does Zeebo "clearly fits the model of a microconsole" where it neither is Android-based nor has cloud gaming services? If you read the Microconsole wiki page you can see that "android based or having cloud gaming" are features of a microconsole. Microconsole is a term that groups all the Onlive-like consoles and Ouya-like consoles together. Both the OnLive and Ouya gave birth to the term "Microconsoles", and therefore other consoles alike the Onlive and Ouya (ex. G-cluster, flareplay etc.) & (ex. MadCatz MOJO, Gamestick, etc) should be listed in this new category of consoles (microconsole). Of course Zeebo offers digital distribution, but it is on the likes of Nintendo's eShop, Xbox Live Marketplace etc. This is not cloud gaming. Many many articles group Ouya, Onlive, MOJO, as microconsoles, Even Marriot Guy grouped them as such, and I have never seen an article or any other site that considers Zeebo as a microconsole except wikipedia.
Please point out an outside source other than wikipedia that considers Zeebo as a Microconsole, because truthfully everybody that i see except Wikipedia is considering Zeebo as an Actual video game console.-- Charmugen (talk) 18:21, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict)Keep in mind that a microconsole is a "video game console", so when you say "actual video game console", well, yeah. Microconsoles are small lightweight low cost devices that do not have the full hardware capabilities of fully featured home video game consoles. Zeebo does not have physical media, runs an ARM11 processor like many microconsoles, and uses a cellphone game SDK for development. It simply isn't a full home video game console. It also simply hasn't been discussed much by sources since around 2009, 2010, before Microconsole became a term. Most sources clearly compare it as being a device in a similar bracket as the OnLive MicroConsole announced around the same time, such as Engadget. There's dozens of other sources that compare it to OnLive MicroConsole from that time frame, as the only other similar device at the time. -- ferret (talk) 18:57, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
Sorry about that delay. Anyways, what I mean't by "actual video game console" was "home video game console", hence not a microconsole. It's interesting that you and many other sources[2][3][4] give that "old" (as i call it) definition of a microconsole, and how you list 3 reasons why Zeebo is a microconsole, yet you and those other sources don't consider how broad that definition is and that many other home video game consoles out there also technically fit within this definition but are still considered home video game consoles. You listed 3 reasons, but these reasons aren't good enough reasons why Zeebo is a Microconsole, and here is why. But first, lets consider your definition.
Microconsoles are small and lightweight. Not true for all. The OBOX is bigger than the Wii and runs and plays Android games.
Microconsoles are lowcost devices. Not true for all. Look at the retail price of Mad Catz MOJO[5][6] and Nvidia Shield console[7], their prices are higher than that of the GameCube and some other home video game consoles (and that's including inflation for some too)[8]. There are even Home video game consoles that are below 100$ in retail (HyperScan for ex.)[9], and nobody considers them as microconsoles, even today.
Microconsoles do not have full hardware capabilities of fully featured home video game consoles. Not too sure if this can be true or not, since the Nvidia Shield console is considered by many on the likes of PS4 and Xbox One with its streaming capabilities and 4K resolution[10][11]. Someday there may be an Android device that may have full hardware gaming capabilities of that of its current Sony home video game console. What are we to consider then? I say, a microconsole, cause it runs Android and plays Android games (probably these new android games are going to be on par with AAA games). Also, how about the HyperScan, one of the many home video game consoles that didn't have "full hardware capabilites" of its best competitors? HyperScan didn't have full hardware capabilites of PS3, Wii, and Xbox 360 at the time, yet nobody (even today) considers changing its status to microconsoles? How about Steam Machines? The lists goes on and on.
Do you now see why this definition falls apart? But let's go back to your list of reasons why Zeebo is a microconsole:
1. "Zeebo does not have physical media". Well, there is a good chance that the ninth generation of consoles from Sony, Xbox, and Nintendo are going digital only[12], what are we to consider then? If the Nintendo NX comes out digital only, and has full hardware capabilities of a home video game console and runs AAA games, is expensive, doesn't run ARM processors, doesn't use cellphone game SDK for dev., then we wouldn't consider it to be a microconsole, unless it runs Android or is solely cloud gaming. And what are you to consider the actual home video game consoles like Hasbro Netjet[13], Sifteo Cubes[14][15] and Stix? They are digital only consoles yet most people call them home video game consoles and none call them microconsoles, even today? The Hasbro Netjet came out in 2006-2007[16][[17]], yet nobody considered comparing that to Zeebo or Onlive? Hmmm. i wondy why. So, having a video game console that is digital-only does not determine if it is a microconsole or not.
2. Zeebo runs a ARM11 processor. Some portable video game consoles like the Nintendo DS[18] and N-Gage[19] also run a ARM processor, yet are considered "portable home video game consoles". If there was a home video game console version of the Nintendo DS that has ARM processor, many people would considered it to be a home video game console, not a microconsole. You wouldn't call the Nintendo DS a "portable microconsole", but a "portable home video game console". A "portable microconsole" is a device such as the portable Nvidia Shield, that is a portable microconsole. So, having a video game console with an ARM processor does not determine if it is a microconsole or not.
3. So if being digital only and having ARM processor doesn't determine if it is a microconsole or not, having a video game console that uses a specific game development does? Has that been applied anywhere? Lets look at Hearthstone, developed in Unity, its available for both PC and android phones, yet it is considered a phone game on ANdroid, but not on PC, yet the android port is the exact same thing on the PC? Pokemon Shuffle is available for both on your smartphones and Nintendo 3ds, yet nobody considers the Nintendo 3DS a "portable microconsole" because its got a phone game version on Android? Plus, something I should have mentioned in the beginning, Zeebo has exclusive games that can only be run officially on the Zeebo[20]. This is like the LaserActive that had exclusive games that can only be run on the LaserActive, even with its PAC system. I know a majority of people are going to argue that Zeebo plays phone games and has many phone game ports, thus it is a microconsole, but technically these exclusive games on Zeebo aren't phone games. You can say however that these exclusive games are phone-like games, because according to the wiki Zeebo page, these excuslive games use cellphone game SDK for development, but are we going to categories Zeebo into a different category just because it uses cellphone game SDK for development? Take this into consideration. If Zeebo had physical media, nobody would have considered it to be a microconsole, but something akin to a home console version of the Nintendo DS, or GameBoy. Just take a look a the games of Zeebo, HyperScan, and Gamewave, they are pretty much on par with one another. If HyperScan is a home video game console, and Super A'can is a home video game console, then the Zeebo is also a home video game console, since digital only and ARM processors doesn't determine a microconsoles's status and plus Zeebo has exclusive games.
So what does determine a microconsole status? If it is an Ouya-like, or Onlive-like console, that is what I'm arguing about, and Zeebo doesn't fit here, nor does Steam Machines. This is a definition that is narrow and only a few (dozens now) can make it into this list. We can argue more about point # 3 later on if people wish to do so.
However, your statement did make me reconsidered the status of the PS TV as it is more of a home video game console than a microconsole; I won't mind if it gets removed from microconsole status. However, everybody was calling the PS TV a microconsole because of its other features such as PS cloud gaming services, so I had to go with the flow and consider PS TV as a microconsole. I cannot feel the same with Zeebo, since nobody considers it as a microconsole. Yes, Zeebo was compared to Onlive, since they both came out near eachother in the timeframe of 2009-2010, but Zeebo was dropped out when Ouya came in because everybody got a sense that the term "microconsoles" only applied to cloud gaming home devices and android home devices, devices that are indie devs. If many people compare Nividia Shield console to PS4 or Xbox One[21][22][23], it doesn't mean that Nvidia Shield is a home video game console. Same with Zeebo. So, my bottomline conclusion is, Zeebo is not a microconsole, and should be a home video game console, or at least a "different animal". -- Charmugen (talk) 22:29, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
I'd really like for at least one more editor to chime in on this. We've both got our positions obviously, a third voice would be nice. -- ferret (talk) 22:37, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
I'll chime in. Charmugen's response is pretty long, so I'm not really going to get into a point-by-point discussion of either of you, just a general discussion of what a microconsole is/is not, and then if Zeebo fits that definition.
So, what doesn't matter when it comes to the definition? Processor/ARM doesn't matter- there was a big push a few years ago to make full PCs with ARM processors; it's just a technical architecture, nothing definitive about what you build with it. Size doesn't matter- that's just manufacturing details, despite the "micro" name. A PS3 is half just air inside, for cooling, while a slim PS2 is smaller than a book. Physical media doesn't matter- 8th gen consoles all have online stores, with increasing importance (9th gen won't be online-only, because there's still too many people with crummy internet). Inexpensive is an indicator, and useful in the gray areas, but you can make a stripped-down PS3 for sale in Africa and it'd still be a full console, and you can take a microconsole and stuff it with overpowered/priced extras without changing categories (NVidia Shield).
But the Android bit, that's something. Not that it uses Android itself- that's just a name, using iOS wouldn't change anything in that regard. (*cough* AppleTV *cough*) But using an existing operating system in order to sell minimally-modified existing games/apps on your system definitely makes something a microconsole. For me, it's the definitive element- that your console does not stand alone as an island, but is a modification of an existing gaming medium. That's what makes the Shield a microconsole even though it has an expensive graphics card. You don't make Shield games- you make an Android game that can use a controller as an input. But you do make PS4/X1 games- even though you can do ports, the base engine structure has to be changed to make something run on those systems.
So, Zeebo. As far as I can tell, it's a full, standalone device, custom everything, that just happens to be cheap. It's like a cheap, Brazilian Xbox- games are released specifically for the system, they have to be ported if they exist on any other platform, even cellphone games. If you port a Sega Genesis game to the Zeebo, you can't just run the same thing on a cell phone. I'd say it's a home console, even though it's pushing the line. If it turns out that the OS is just straight up a cell phone OS with controller and online store support, then I'd reconsider, but the Zeebo article doesn't make it sound like that.
Steam Machine, incidentally, isn't a console at all- it's a PC with a custom Linux variant running on it, meant to be plugged into a TV and act like a console. I have a computer plugged into my TV- it's not a console either. The hardware is just a PC, and the OS can be run on any computer. --PresN 00:38, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
The key feature for me is it's apparent reliance on Qualcomm's BREW platform. To me, the recent AppleTV revision you brought up is a very similar example. While a game does have to be ported (iOS to TV OS), the two OS's aren't truly different, mostly differing in control interface. -- ferret (talk) 01:23, 14 September 2015 (UTC)
Some people have said, on forums and blogs, that Zeebo runs a "BREW OS" (as some have called it)[24][25], which, as far as I know, has yet to be confirm concretely (at least Zeebo's wiki page doesn't mentions its OS). Zeebo, not just supports BREW, but also supports OpenGL ES[26], which the Nintendo 3DS and other home video game consoles uses.[27] Although many phones uses BREW, according to the Wiki page of BREW, "Brew is described as a pseudo operating system, but not a true mobile operating system."[28] Android, iOS, etc. are described as "true mobile operation system", which BREW isn't according to its wiki page. ALSO, take this into consideration, Zeebo has arcade ports from Data East that haven't yet been ported to any mobile phones, their OS, or anything similar. "In March 2010, Zeebo began releasing a series of classic arcade games. These games were originally created in the 1980s and 1990s by Data East Corp. in Japan and have been modified to run on the Zeebo system."[29] Games like Heavy Barrel, Bad Dudes Vs. DragonNinja, Spinmaster, Street Hoop, etc., all made by Data East, have been ported to the Zeebo (so technically these arcade ports aren't phone games), despite Zeebo's hardware capabilities & SDKs. If you look at the Platforms of the Spinmaster game in its wiki page, nowhere will you see "BREW-based phones/similar devices" but specifically "Zeebo" as one of its list. As you can see, Zeebo acts more like a home video game console than a microconsole with its exclusive games and arcade ports. I do agree that Zeebo is borderline, but in the end, Zeebo seems to squeeze itself in into a Home video game console status with reasons givin above. Now, concerning the 4th Gen Apple TV, it definitely fits within the "Ouya-like" status, but with an iOS. I consider 4th Gen Apple TV a microconsole. If Roku decides to release a gaming-focused set top box, then I would consider it as a microconsole. Its just that all of the "Ouya-like" microconsoles were Android-based before the 4th Gen Apple TV made its announcement, and the previous gen Apple TVs weren't gaming-focused or "microconsoles" like the Ouya. I should probably broaden my definition to, not just include Android-based gaming machines, but also include gaming machines based on other mobile operating systems in direct competition with Android with its phones and/or set top boxes, like the 4th Gen Apple TV with iOS. Now, If someone decides to release a set top box gaming-focused with Blackberry OS, then I probably would consider it as a microconsole. However, in the list of mobile operating systems are the 3DS and PS Vita, which are "portable home video game consoles". That's why I say "mobile operating systems in direct competition with Android with its phones and/or set top boxes" to exclude the 3DS and Vita. However, this is treading in murky water (or gray area so to speak), and my definition isn't concrete yet, so I may tweak my definition here and there.
Sorry, but I probably won't respond until next week. When I respond, I do research as well. Pretty busy here and there, but we got all the time to discuss this, don't we? -- Charmugen (talk) 23:52, 27 September 2015 (UTC)
Sooo... any discussions? Anyone want to comment of Netjet, Sifteo Cubes, and Stix with their likeness towards Zeebo? Because if we are to consider Zeebo as a microconsole, might as well do the same with NetJet, Sifteo Cubes, and Stix? Or are we in agreement that Zeebo is a home video game console like HyperScan, A'can, and PS4? Just came back to comment to make sure I'm here and active. -- Charmugen (talk) 22:18, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
I still firmly believe it belongs more with the modern micro-consoles, but there's a hole in the sourcing for that, so if you want to move it, go for it. -- ferret (talk) 22:30, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
As I expected; I can see why. With all my effort, and I assume you read and understood everything I've said, you still consider Zeebo (firmly) as a microconsole. Interesting. Well, there are some gamers out there who still believes the LaserActive is not a home video game console[30]. There are even some people (journalists) who still thinks that the Piston Xi3 and Steam Link are microconsoles[31][32][33][34][35], which is unfortunate. So, why do you still firmly believe that the Zeebo is a microconsole? Or have you already stated it and still aren't convinced? If so, why? Let's reach to an agreement, shall we? -- Charmugen (talk) 06:03, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
It's irrelevant what my personal opinion is or why I hold that view. We don't need to reach a personal agreement between us. While I still believe it to be a microconsole, I have acknowledged a lack of clear support from reliable sources. Wikipedia is based on WP:V and what can be verified with sources, not personal opinion or even truth. Without sources to back my position, it fails WP:V and your view wins out. Feel free to make your changes whenever you like. -- ferret (talk) 11:57, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
If we were to change the definition of microconsole to include Zeebo, then what are we to consider Nintendo's NX system if it comes out digital only? A microconsole on the "likes" of Ouya? What if Nintendo makes AAA games or similar games far from casual on the NX? Do you know how many Nintendo fans are going to rage about this grouping Nintendo NX to the ulti failure of the Ouya? I'm just being careful, that's all. But I can see why you and other people would want to consider Zeebo as a seperate entity. Perhaps we should create a new category of consoles, the digital only consoles, and have Zeebo and perhaps Nintendo NX on that list, instead of the microconsole list. Perhaps?Charmugen (talk) 18:53, 5 September 2015 (UTC)