Weapons to include
It was clear to me when I added the Sauer 38H and the Mauser HSC that weapons on this list were German made weapons. Germany was notorious for using dozens of foreign-made weapons in their own army as an expedient to home-production including such weapons as the CZ vz.24 and the FN Browning HiPower. A comprehensive list would include these and the many other weapons produced under Nazi occupation.
I believe this would be far beyound the scope of this template and, as such, none of these ancillary weapons should be included. They are of importance and should perhaps be listed along with a cross-reference to their German designations, etc. I do, however, feel that listing it under this template would result in a mind-numbing variety of captured, occupation-produced, experimental, and commercial weapons that were all, at one time, used by German infantry units.--Asams10 23:42, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
- The Vz.24 is different then the numerous other firearms used, due especially to the level of use and to a lesser extent the nature of the Vz. The Vz certainly saw greater use then a number of the german-made weapons among the infantry, as well as the great majority of forgeign used firearms. Firearms that were produced for germany, as well as being used heavily are worth putting in the template because they are representative of german infantry weapons. If the template is to be representative of weapons actually used by german infantry, that it should not be excluded. Certainly, we can add a link the longer list of firearms, a great majority of which do not need to be linked to on the template. Ve3 00:02, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the 24 was used extensively, however, if ther is no distinction between the different types of weapons, this would cease to be a template and either be a laundry list of scores of weapons designations at worse or an incomplete and arbitrary list at best. Perhaps another template should be made for these types of weapons, however I don't think that would necessarily be in the best interest of an encyclopedic format. Maybe an article that lists these ancillary weapons instead. Also, please stop reverting until there is discussion and a concensus.--Asams10 00:34, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
- I think level use is a good distinction, and stops it becoming a 'laundry list' of weapons as you suggest. What is important is that it is reprentative of the major firearms used by the heer, which would include the VZ. If its going to be restricted to german produced weapons then it would have to be re-labeled, but that does not make it very usefull for understanding what was actually used by the infantry. Another template could be made for all the lesser used weapons, or some other category. However, if non german designed weapons weapons notably used by the infantry are excluded then it is similarly incomplete and arbitrary as the reverse situation. Ve3 00:46, 6 May 2006 (UTC) I also ask you to stop reverting, as you are not only reverting the Vz which are still discussing, but also other smaller changes I made. Ve3 00:57, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
- Look we can restrict to only german designed weapons but then it weill include weapons that german infantry hardly touched, yet exclude non-german weapons used notably. If a second template is made this has the reverse problem yet is just as flawed. The solution is to keep the template limited to notably used weapons. Ve3 01:08, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
The reversions go both ways. You're adding something that doesn't belong. You renamed the title bar of the template to fit your view, not the other way around as you suggest in your post above. I interpret German Infantry Weapons to mean those built by Germans and, up until you posted, it was exactly that. Your addition went beyond the scope of the article. Few of the weapons on this list saw 'minor use' by the Germans and many not on the list saw significant use... the CZ-27 pistol for one. That doesn't mean that it should be included on a list of German Weapons. Your addition of a weapon which didn't belong shows only that another category is needed. Feel free to recategorize and make your own template to include the actual usage rates or importance of those weapons, but understand that this is nearly impossible to categorize. How we categorize these weapons is important. The VZ-24 was not a German made weapon and was only a sub-variation license made version of the Mauser model 98 rifle. Heck, so was the M1903 and M1903 rifles WERE used by the Germans (Actually, I realize the 1903 had more to do with the Mauser model 93/95 than the 98, but I was trying to make a point). Does that mean we should put that on the template? If you're going to change the template, you can't do it willy nilly. Change it all, research and post a comprehensive list or leave the list as it is, nearly complete and cohesive.--Asams10 06:31, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
- The template was "German infantry weapons", not "German weapons". It is misleading to exclude weapons that were used heavily by the german infanty, regardless of the origin. Your complaint that it will become indiscriminate, if other types are included is only true if level of use is NOT taken to account, which is not what I am suggesting. THe 1903 was not used significantly by germans, nor where any ordered for prouduction. HOwever, the Vz's were not only captured, but also ordered for production and eqipped many divisions. It may have been a derivative, but there are differences, and this true of other weapons on the template (say the MG 08). Including weapons by level use is representative of German infantry weapons, and is not indiscriminate. Ve3 18:52, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I have added the Dreyse m1907 Pistol - relatively unknown today but designed by Schmeisser and made in Germany, and used in both world wars. Mostly officer-used in WWI, but also used by officers in WWII as well as issued to Volksgrenadier among others, especially after 1944.
--Spencerpklein 2:52, 22 March 2009
I realize this is a point of contention, but since the template does at the moment include notable foreign-made weapons, shouldn't the Ppsh-41 be included? The Germans loved that weapon, with many Germans discarding their German-made smgs, like the Mp-40, in favor of the Ppsh-41. In fact, the Germans apparently re-chambered some Ppsh-41s to use 9mm ammunition and Mp-40 mags.Mmuroya (talk) 22:48, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
German cartridges of WWII?
I would suggest adding the different cartridges (9mm Luger, 7.92x57mm, etc.) used by the German army in WWII in addition to the weapons used.
--RavenStorm 03:01, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Should the MG-13 be added or maybe replacing the mg-08 Crested Penguin 10:18, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
I've changed the "Grenades" section to "Grenades and mines" as the mines selected were often used in a personal anti-tank role and I felt they merited inclusion. The Sanctuary Sparrow 06:58, 29 September 2007 (UTC)