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User:Bamse/Jesuit Missions of the Chiquitos work

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copied from de:Benutzer Diskussion:Sanblatt

Die Beziehung der Jesuiten zu der einheimischen Bevölkerung ist ein weites Feld. Das Thema ist zwangsläufig (oft) ideologisch belastet. Einen interessanten Artikel zum Thema findest du in der Historischen Zeitschrift von 1976. Im Ausstellungskatalog: Eckart Kühne (Hg.): Martin Schmid 1694 bis 1772, Missionar - Musiker - Architekt, ein Jesuit aus der Schweiz bei den Chiquitano-Indianern in Bolivien, Luzern 1994 findest du einen Artikel (und weitere Literaturangaben) über die Missionierungsmethoden der Jesuiten. Eine gute Literaturliste findest du unter anderem auch auf de:Jesuitenreduktionen der Guaraní.

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Comments by Redtigerxyz

Images:

  • Images in "World Heritage Missions" do not have any captions. The building(s) displayed in the pic need to be named as a caption
    Should I really add "Church in ..." everywhere? bamse (talk) 10:54, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
    The section is meant to look like a table and looks better without image captions in my opinion. bamse (talk) 09:47, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

--Redtigerxyz Talk 13:35, 9 October 2009 (UTC)


  • Comment a rather good article overall, but it does dance around the colonialism a bit in the history and life section. A few examples:
    • "In the reductions, the Indians were free men." Only a few paragraphs earlier, the article admits that the situation is more controversial and debated. I think it would be better to be concrete and specific about the rights that were and were not had, both in theory and practice, rather than dropping such broad statements.
    • "For the Jesuits the goal was to create cities in the complete harmony of the paradise in which they had encountered the Indians." Do you mean the stated goal? It seems a bit naive, given the obvious motivation for conversion and the proximate economic/trade route motivations mentioned elsewhere in the article.
    • "The Jesuits did not rely on donations, because by right the priests received a fixed income from the community to support their work." My concern is that "by right" obscures the exact manner in which the priests obtained and collected funds for their own income, which I believe is not mentioned and certainly not made clear.
      I don't know if there was a fixed manner for fund collection. Probably it would depend on the place and priest. All this sentence is meant to say is, that by (Spanish) law, the priests were entitled to an income (tax?). From what I understand this is similar to the tithe in medieval Europe but unlike the practise of other orders which relied on donations only. bamse (talk) 16:41, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

There are also many, many uncited sentences in the history section (which I focused on, probably in the rest of the article) and a few uncited paragraphs. It is possible this is because the same reference is used for multiple sentences. For the purpose of clarity, I recommend that <ref name> be used if this is the case. A sentence without a reference should be the exception to the rule. This makes it easier for readers to trace the source and also makes it easier for editors to identify uncited material (including material edited or added at a later date). There is an easy technological fix for using the same reference in multiple places. Savidan 04:15, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Just to clarify, are you asking for every single sentence to be followed by a reference? Nev1 (talk) 19:44, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
That should be the default, unless it is obvious why there should not be one (e.g. the sentence is a simple summary of several cited facts that follow in later sentences). However, I am suggesting that the mere use of the same source for a few consecutive sentences (which I suspect to be the case here) is not a good enough reason not to cite. That makes it hard for the reader to determine whether the source is the preceding or following reference, or whether the sentence is uncited. In addition, things become complicated as other add to the article in the future (e.g. it becomes impossible to distinguish a sentence of original research added at a later date from a sentence simply not in-line cited by the original contributor). Savidan 00:59, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
  • I'll leave this out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:22, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
  • Current ref 37 (Busque...) what makes this a reliable source? Lacks a publisher also
    I added the publisher. Only the pictures from that site (basically Chiquitos Indians with musical instruments) and not the text were meant as supporting source. If it is questioned that the pictures are of Chiquitos Indians or if the source is otherwise considered unreliable, it could well be removed as the statement it references is supported by other sources. bamse (talk) 21:30, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
  • I'll leave this out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:22, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:54, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Oppose. Not well written. Examples of why are below. The whole text is at issue.

Lead:

  • Missions ... the site. Comes as a perplexing surprise that "they" is now rather singular.
  • Link to "Christianity" is far too vague. Can you find a section-link or a daughter article?
  • Enough commas already, so "the area and founded".
  • Awkward sentence themes: "The Jesuits", "They", "The Jesuits". And I noticed "the" was dropped in the first para.
  • "used music in converting"; not "to convert", but during the process of converting, yes?
  • What does "virtual" mean in this context? "and were largely independent of"?
  • "triggered by events in Europe and America"—does "America" mean "the US" here?
  • Three countries linked: can they be to the "Religion" section of those articles? Or the "History" daughter articles? Please dig around to find focused link targets throughout the article.
  • "In the second half of the 20th century, a large restoration project of the missionary churches began." Awkward. Reverse the clauses and bin the comma.
  • Year or decade(s) of tourism establishment? And is the "growing popularity" a reference to tourism? It's unclear. Tony (talk) 12:02, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

PS I can't make out a single thing except "Brasil" in that map. It's a size and resolution problem. Tony (talk) 12:04, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Which map? bamse (talk) 07:20, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
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