User:Labalius/Question about Dido's Birth Certificate
Advice about citing Dido's birth certificate[edit]
This is a copy of a thread that I started at the Reliable sources Noticeboard. I have placed this here so that it can be linked internally without the link going out of date. The original version will eventually be archived.
Dido's Birth Certificate[edit]
The subject of Dido's real name has been the source of a protracted edit war. Although there are reliable sources which state that she was born Florian Cloud de Bounevialle Armstrong, they are undermined by Dido herself stating that Dido is her real name. I have obtained a certified copy of her birth certificate from the General Register Office in London, which must be the final word on her birth name. However, it is not clear to me if I can cite it (am I conducting original research?) or how to cite it (i.e. which citation template should I use? What information should I include?). Is there a precedent that I can follow? Thank you, Labalius (talk) 11:26, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- I don't believe something like that is considered "published", even as a primary source. There's definitely been discussions about documents obtained by, say, the Freedom of Information Act in the USA. If an organization that's considered reliable for obtaining government documents does the requesting and republishes it on its website, it's a published primary source. But an individal requesting a single record and getting a file back, no, that's not published. By the way, wouldnt something like this be covered many times over in People magazine? Squidfryerchef (talk) 14:29, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- As far as i'm concerned, it no more OR than looking up a periodical or newspaper at the library. Correct me if i am wrong but wouldn't this be classed as a legal document which are permissable as sources? if it's official document there's no question as to it's reliability. I think the wording of Wikipedia:No original research, where is refers to unpublished material is misleading what the policy is really there for is to stop people adding made up stuff or hearsay. Obviously this is very different to that. --neon white talk 14:59, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- However, I think the birth certificate bit is unnecessary: there are plenty of reliable sources - News and Books that support "Florian Cloud de Bounevialle Armstrong". These aren't "undermined" by Dido's own statements. From a biographer's point of view, a person's own statements (which may reflect a preferred spin on their biography) don't automatically trump reliable external views. WP:NPOV requires that all significant viewpoints be reported - i.e. her own reliably reported statements as well as reliable external sources - so it's not a case of opting for one or the other. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 15:18, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- Whilst a certificate is an unpublished document, anybody can obtain a copy (at a cost) to check it, and it is indeed a legal document. The certificate has no bearing on her "real" name, because in the UK (despite what some government departments may tell you), you can legally adopt any name you choose as your real name without any formality whatsoever. If she says her real name is Dido, then that is her real name now. Her name at birth can be shown from the certificate, or indeed from the GRO index (Image:Dido birth index.jpg) The name Dido does not appear in her birth record Mayalld (talk) 15:23, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- There is a difference between conducting research (which is what I think has been done here), and introducing original research into an article. That said, I agree with Gordon and Mayalld... the better way to handle this is to mention what all the sources say (her birth certificate, other sources, and Dido herself) without passing judgement. Blueboar (talk) 15:40, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- Whilst a certificate is an unpublished document, anybody can obtain a copy (at a cost) to check it, and it is indeed a legal document. The certificate has no bearing on her "real" name, because in the UK (despite what some government departments may tell you), you can legally adopt any name you choose as your real name without any formality whatsoever. If she says her real name is Dido, then that is her real name now. Her name at birth can be shown from the certificate, or indeed from the GRO index (Image:Dido birth index.jpg) The name Dido does not appear in her birth record Mayalld (talk) 15:23, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- However, I think the birth certificate bit is unnecessary: there are plenty of reliable sources - News and Books that support "Florian Cloud de Bounevialle Armstrong". These aren't "undermined" by Dido's own statements. From a biographer's point of view, a person's own statements (which may reflect a preferred spin on their biography) don't automatically trump reliable external views. WP:NPOV requires that all significant viewpoints be reported - i.e. her own reliably reported statements as well as reliable external sources - so it's not a case of opting for one or the other. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 15:18, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- As far as i'm concerned, it no more OR than looking up a periodical or newspaper at the library. Correct me if i am wrong but wouldn't this be classed as a legal document which are permissable as sources? if it's official document there's no question as to it's reliability. I think the wording of Wikipedia:No original research, where is refers to unpublished material is misleading what the policy is really there for is to stop people adding made up stuff or hearsay. Obviously this is very different to that. --neon white talk 14:59, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- I think people are misreading what she said anyway - she's not saying that Dido is her only name but that's it's not a made-up stage name. I think it's perfectly fine to use a birth certificate as a reference. --Cameron Scott (talk) 15:44, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- If there is evidence that she was usually known by that name by friends and family before her stage career then it is not wrong for her to say it is her "real" name. Surely clarification is the best solution if sources can be found to make the facts clear. Paul B (talk) 15:49, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- But what is "real"? The whole dispute is semantic. The argument is not about what sources say, but about differing subjective definitions of "real name". Better to just drop the issue of "what is real" and report the whole thing in terms of objective descriptions: what sources say about certified birth name and current chosen name. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 16:00, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- It's not a question of subjective definitions of 'real name' but of clarifying the facts - if they are known and can be sourced. If Dido means something specific when she says it's her real name then what matters is clarifying what she means, rather than philosophising the nature of reality. What you appear to be suggesting is exactly what I was suggesting: "report the whole thing in terms of objective descriptions". That is to say, clarify the facts with sources. Paul B (talk) 16:46, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- I agree entirely. Report what the sources say, including what she calls herself now. It isn't up to us to decide what is 'real' in this case. Doug Weller (talk) 16:34, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- But what is "real"? The whole dispute is semantic. The argument is not about what sources say, but about differing subjective definitions of "real name". Better to just drop the issue of "what is real" and report the whole thing in terms of objective descriptions: what sources say about certified birth name and current chosen name. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 16:00, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- If there is evidence that she was usually known by that name by friends and family before her stage career then it is not wrong for her to say it is her "real" name. Surely clarification is the best solution if sources can be found to make the facts clear. Paul B (talk) 15:49, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
- I think people are misreading what she said anyway - she's not saying that Dido is her only name but that's it's not a made-up stage name. I think it's perfectly fine to use a birth certificate as a reference. --Cameron Scott (talk) 15:44, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Thank you all for your valuable advice. I intend to write a section for the Dido article, including a fully-referenced discussion of her name. She certainly was known as Dido by her family during childhood, so "Dido" should not be presented as a stage name. I had no idea that I was allowed to upload a scan of the GRO index, which will be very helpful. I will consider whether the birth certificate itself needs to be referenced, but I am happy that I am not guilty of original research. Labalius (talk) 17:08, 16 October 2008 (UTC)