User:Nobs01/Evidence

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11 January[edit]

  • 18:10
    • Cberlet creates self-promoting page[1]

18 July[edit]

  • How User:Ruy Lopez found Laird Wilcox Report.[2]
    • "Google shows the words "magdoff", "kant" and "venona" appear on exactly four web pages ("hiss", "ales" and "venona" appear on over 700). One of these pages is Nobs01's Wikipedia entry, so it's really three entries. One is from a white supremacist site, which seems to be quoting from another source. One is from some far-right red-under-every-bed author, who basically accuses pretty much every known figure on the left, whether communist or not, of being a Soviet spy - Alger Hiss, Harry Magdoff, Harry Dexter White, even IF Stone for God's sake. The other is a memo referring to the original Venona message"
      • "far-right red-under-every-bed author", i.e. John Earl Haynes, Library of Congress Manuscripts Division [3]
      • "memo referring to the original Venona message" cryptome
      • "a white supremacist site, which seems to be quoting from another source", i.e. Volksfront publishing Wilcox, The Watchdogs: A Close Look at Anti-Racist "Watchdog" Groups, Editorial Research Service, 1999.

22 July[edit]

  • 07:49
    • 172 (talk · contribs) communicatates on User:Tjive's Talk Page; uses term "we";
      • "I'm among a sizable number of editors with serious doubts about the "Soviet spy" series articles. We're in the early stage of preparing the case for a significant overhaul." [4]
  • 15:12
    • nobs outlines issues to User:172; suggests good faith proposal. [5]

26 July[edit]

27 July[edit]

  • 00:56
    • nobs restates proceedural proposal in second posting:
      • "Let's discuss the credibility of each source cited, then discuss substance."[9]
  • 02:58
    • merge [10]; portion reads: "Magdoff at the time was ending a prolonged leave of absence due to a gall bladder operation, and was unsure of the type of material he could deliver.", sourced to FBI Silvermaster file, Part 2c, pg. 182, (pg. 3 in PDF)
  • 16:39
    • Cberlet charges "original research" [11]

28 July[edit]

  • 21:14
    • nobs complains of Cberlet's demands as "unfair burden" in response to Cberlet's origninal research.[12]
      • "None of the above insertions were sourced, None. And this after the demand was made to footnote and source the material which was removed from the Harry Magdoff article. This is clearly, clearly an unfair burden being demanded."
  • 22:24
    • Cberlet vandalizes page, blanks namespace. [13]

29 July[edit]

  • 01:56, Cberlet proposes at Talk:Harry Magdoff and espionage [14]
    • "How about 2400 characters laying out the case against Magdoff and cited to actual claims in published secondary sources such as Klehr or Romerstein or the published counterintelligence report; and then 2400 characters of rebuttal cited to actual text in published secondary sources".
  • 20:14
    • nobs issues good faith proposal to Cberlet (declared as such) to resolve "a myriad of disputes", including "the persistent vandalism that now is occurring on the Venona project page itself." [15]

30 July[edit]

  • 11:50
    • Cberlet rewrites lead "for accuracy"; changes "U.S. government" to "government agencies" [18]

31 July[edit]

  • 21:51
    • nobs asks Cberlet,
      • "As to this insertion from Schrecker: "documents from more accessible sources", could you qualify (1) what this vague reference refers to, and (2) why it should be included here. [19]
  • 12:56
    • Cberlet begins lengthy debate over what is "covert relationship" [20].
  • 20:43
    • nobs posts on Cberlet's talk page "Dear Sir: I approached you in good faith; please direct any personal sentiments regarding my postings or others to my Talk page"[21]; Cberlet continues blistering personal attacks elsewhere.
  • 20:45
    • "I have no interest in a side conversation."[22]

3 August[edit]

  • 14:33
    • nobs reinsert's approx 135 words of sourced evidence [23]
(two paragraphs, one beginning, "According to...", and "Magdoff's involvement...").
  • 19:42
    • Cberlet declares, "Please carry out all contact with me through the talk pages of specific articles. I have no interest in continuing to engage with you outside the actual editing process. Messages left here will not be responded to." [24]
      • Applicable Precedent Statement of Principal
        • users who are in conflict talk to one another on their respective talk pages [25]

4 August[edit]

  • 17:01
    • Note to Cberlet,
      • "I will address this comment to you once in open forum: please confine your comments to the subjects and issues under discussion. Please confine pointed references of your impressions of a users personal ideological or political persuassions to User Talk pages. Please do not litter these pages up with bitter partisan arguements intended to detract from the substance under discussion. Respectfully, User:Nobs01 [26]

7 August[edit]

9 August[edit]

  • 11:34
    • nobs recieves 65KB e-mail attachment on documented evidence of various sockpuppet trolls of User:Ruy Lopez, whom User:Viajero publicly identified as sockpuppet vandal User:Coqsportif, subsequently banned indefinetely by User:SlimVirgin. Attachment may be made available with permission of two authors.

11 August[edit]

17 August[edit]

  • 13:02
    • Cberlet alters text to "the Soviets were unsure of the type of material he might be asked to deliver." [29]. Changes the meaning from first person primary source documentation to a third party not present. No source provided. Edit Summary reads "[b]alanced text, edited leaps of conclusion".
  • 13:08
    • Unqualified and extraneous secondary materials inserted [30]

22 August[edit]

12 September[edit]

15 September[edit]

16 September[edit]

  • 01:41
  • 01:42
    • In a personal attack subhead entitled ==Nobs has once again misrepresented sources in his espionage paragraphs== Cberlet charges nobs with "misrepresentation", "inaccurate", "biased", and "false"; Cberlet extracts,
      • " 'The following were members of the Victor Perlo Network". That statement is not qualified as "According to Elizabeth Bentley", or 'Elizabeth Bentley has alleged', etc.", says " this is a misrepresentation. " [38]

20 September[edit]

  • 01:27
  • 14:09
    • Cberlet charges at Talk:VENONA project#RFC: references to Venona in other articles, in an edit entitled "The real problem here is a POV warrior crusade" [40], "Work out compromise language with Nobs, and a few days or weeks later check back and see that in many cases he has simply relentlessly revised the text day by day, line by line, to restore his original POV claims."
    • Same posting, next sentence Cberlet states, "Sometimes Nobs simply deletes the fact that some of these people denied the charges [41], [42].
  • 17:13
  • 17:47
    • nobs responds partially to the above with [44], citing Cberlet use of a banned sockpuppet troll to call nobs a POV warrior.
  • 19:36
    • nobs asks "can the allegation of Laird Wilcox not being ethical be substantiated" [45]
  • 19:57
    • Cberlet repeats response already in namespace; issues personal attack, "petty harassment"[46]
  • 20:01
    • nobs poses question again; raises the issue why Wikipedia should publicize an unsourced smear [47]
      • note: this issue was raised on the Talk:Chip Berlet page because of User:Cberlet's refusal to engage in dispute resolution confidentiallly on his Talk page, as per WP, and personal attacks when attempted.
  • 21:40
    • nobs identifies [48] banned sockpuppet troll, the same user Cberlet is in regular communication with [49][50], who called nobs "xenophobic", and the troll inserted material from the neo-nazi IHR cite into the Harry Dexter White article, and exhorts Cberlet to initiate RfM so this matter can proceed to RfArb. nobs reversion to the phrase "stoutly proclaimed his lifelong commitment to the principles of democracy and the ideals of Roosevelt's New Deal" was to the original language of Prof. Roger Sandilands, the original author of the article [51].

21 September[edit]

  • 22:42
    • nobs inserts Counterintelligence Reader [52] into Harry Magdoff article

22 September[edit]

    • Cberlet sends out gangbang invitations, including to multiple sockpuppet troll; message reads,
  • "Someone, not I, has consolidated the discussion over the Venona documents and how to represent them (prompted by the tect written by Nobs on many pages) onto a single page: Talk:VENONA project."

23 September[edit]

  • 12:43
    • Cberlet and nobs agree on proper name for confusing citation [56]. Cberlet states,
      • "OK, so now we agree on the proper cite, even though the gov. gets it wrong... We can spell out NACIC if that makes folks happier."
  • 16:53 nobs ratifies agreement with note of appreciation. [57]. nobs states,
  • "So we agree"

24 September[edit]

  • 04:23
    • nobs fixes reference to agree cite, reinserts Cberlet's language, "government agencies" [58]
  • 14:06
    • Cberlet properly qualifies NACIC as U.S. government agency with quote from abstract [59]
  • 14:55
    • Cberlet deletes "government agencies"; example of several extensive revisions by Cberlet after agreement; deletes National Counterintelligence Center's, Counterintelligence Reader; [60]
  • 17:37
    • nobs instructed on terms of gangbang. No prior consultation. Ordered to stop editing. [61]
  • 17:48
    • Cberlet threatens page protection [62] after nobs reinserted Cberlet's own language; becomes extremely abusive and threatening.
  • 21:43
    • User:Hob posts on User:Cberlet's talk page,
      • "I started that RfC to try to draw some more attention to the situation, from editors who hadn't already been embroiled in it, some of whom might be able to engage with Nobs & you on the actual content issues - which I can't really do, because of my lack of familiarity with the sources." [63]
Wikipedia:Arbitration policy/Precedents#Abuse of processes
Statement(s) of principle states,
  • Requests for comment and requests for arbitration should be used appropriately within the guidelines on that page. They should not be used for frivolous or pointless disputes and should not be used as a forum for personal attacks, harassment, and abuse.

27 September[edit]

  • 18:06
    • Cberlet files RfM; consists of 120 word personal attack, 20 words of issues of substance. [64] [65]

29 Septmeber[edit]

  • 02:24
    • nobs requests of Cberlet evidence RfM is "not an attempt to abuse the process?" [68]
  • 19:41
    • nobs serves notice regarding RfM, "Cberlet: You are free to rewrite the Request for Mediation then, I cannot in good faith and good conscience agree to the blatant falsehoods you have stated " [69]

30 September[edit]

  • 12:46
    • Cberlet files Summary of Dispute; shifts arguement, says,
      • "Magdoff was listed by the FBI as in the Perlo Group." [70] (contradicts his own argument, 16 Sept 01:42, above)
      • breaks agreement; says citation for "The United States Office of the National Counterintelligence Executive (ONCIX) [71] is still in dispute. (See agreement 23 Sept 12:43, above)

1 October[edit]

  • 01:39
    • nobs requests Laird Wilcox material be addressed before entering mediation. [72]
  • 18:56

2 October[edit]

  • 03:12
    • nobs accepts mediation in good faith; suggests discussing sources referenced for "Significance of Venona" article [74]
  • 20:24
    • nobs responds to personal attack by User:Bk0

3 October[edit]

4 October[edit]

  • 03:10
    • Cberlet unsigned comment. [80]
  • 03:13
  • 03:17
    • Cberlet alters text contiguity. [82]
  • 13:09
    • Cberlet complains, " Iam not going to edit multiple pages at the same time. It is unreasonable and a waste of time." [83]

5 October[edit]

  • 13:24
    • mediator advises,
      • "would prefer to see sources (preferably from both of you)" [84]


  • 16:07
    • Cberlet initiates flamewar in Mediation; examples of false claims and shifting arguements made in filing Mediation dispute.[85]
  • 19:26
    • nobs posted noticifation
      • " I would ask that Cberlet not begin editing in other articles which are subject to this mediation. Further, if he were to do so again, I would consider it a breach of an agreement, editing in bad faith, and an abuse of the process." [86]

6 October[edit]

  • 13:40
    • mediator posts next paragraph, asks for comments, questions. [87]
  • 16:02
    • Cberlet creates subhead in mediation, == Who was called a spy, and why? What is a "Covert Relationship" ==; requests sourcing for,
  • 18:36
    • Cberlet posts,
      • "They should not be identified as a spy just because their name has been linked to a code name by NSA/FBI analysts. [90]

7 October[edit]

  • 13:10
    • Cberlet lectures nobs,
      • "What matters is what published secondary sources are cited to document each sentence placed into the Wiki entry." [91]

8 October[edit]

  • 13:06
    • Cberlet proposes unsourced changes [92]
  • 19:41
    • Cberlet presents sourcing not relevent to context of discussion [93], i.e. sourcing critical of other secondary sources & FBI documents, not primary source Venona materials being questioned.

10 October[edit]

  • 02:12
    • Cberlet proposes text in 6 new subheads, all unsourced. [94]

11 October[edit]

12 October[edit]

  • 03:45
    • nobs posts response to proposed text, "workable" [101]

13 October[edit]

  • 21:37
    • Cberlet creates new subpage; deletes sourced material he requested; merges new unsourced text. [102]

14 Ocober[edit]

  • 00:35

15 October[edit]

  • 22:15
    • Cberlet cites self as source, includes promotional book solicitation. [106]


17 October[edit]

  • 05:56
    • nobs closes Cberlet's lengthy "circular arguement" with citation from The Public Eye, a publication of Political Research Associates, co-authored by Mr. Chip Berlet, entitled "Liberal & Neoconservative Cooperation with State Repression" [107]; uses common jargon phrase, "covert relationship"; excerpted:
      • "This overly close and often covert relationship with law enforcement limits criticism by some human relations groups of institutionalized forms of prejudice, discrimination, and oppression. This is especially true with police misconduct that frequently involves racism.76 Some human relations groups engage in questionable activities such as the collection of names and auto license plate numbers of dissidents attending meetings." [108]

19 October[edit]

  • 20:05
    • Cberlet raises issue,
      • "Whether or not the Category:Soviet spies is accurately named"[109]
        • note: this issue was raised earlier and agreed to by User:nobs to negotiate in mediation.

28 October[edit]

    • Cberlet refers to promotional photo "publicity shot" [110]

7 November[edit]

13 November[edit]

17 December[edit]

  • 21:05
    • personal attack by User:Cberlet on nobs; accuses nobs of being "an apologist for antisemites, fascists, and Nazis" [115]

Personal attacks, accusations and innunendo[edit]

I believe both these issues need to discussed [116] [117]. The first user whom Cberlet last solicited here [118] (among 8 others) is identified as the banned sockpuppet vandal [119] who inserted information from the neo-nazi IHR site [120], and refered to me as xenophobic (here's another solicitation from Cberlet's to him [121]). The second user readily admits to a POV because of his lack of understanding of the "actual content issues - which I can't really do, because of my lack of familiarity". Both users in both postings encourage Cberlet to initiate RfM with RfArb as the real objective.

For the record, the me just state, I believe Mr.Bauder misread the inference to Kiko Martinez on the Talk:Chip Berlet page [122], its full excision on this Talk page [123], and the original source [124]. This misreading is stated as such [125][126][127]. I accredit this misreading of the connection between Kiko Martinez and the National Lawyers Guild to a failure to understand the sources, content, or dispute before making the premature decisions you made affecting this case [128][129][130].

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