User talk:Jimbo Wales

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Censored from Wikipedia[edit]

This fellow remains censored from Wikipedia. Maybe now that he has an obituary in the New York Times you can include him? One of many subjects censored improperly by the gangs of bullies that roam here. Not right Jimmy, not right. Floridarmy (talk) 03:39, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/27/us/gerald-walpin-watchdog-fired-over-americorps-inquiry-dies-at-84.html# Floridarmy (talk) 03:40, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

That would be page "Gerald Walpin" as deleted 22 Nov 2010 in "wp:Articles for deletion/Gerald Walpin (2nd_nomination)". So does the deletion seem bullied, to be undone by wp:DR (also must first ask the deleting admin to undelete before post at wp:DR). Also: we'd easily recognize his photo in U.S. news media from Pres. W Bush administration or AmeriCorps, but found little about his 2013 book titled "The Supreme Court vs The Constitution". -Wikid77 (talk) 04:18/04:51, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Update: asked closing admin: I have contacted the AfD closer (see: dif353) to ask for undelete as likely now wp:GNG notable, and restore whole prior article "Gerald Walpin". I wish we had admins to likewise review AfD notability of famous people (hint, hint). -Wikid77 (talk) 05:30/05:32, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
I personally think he's just as notable or non-notable as he was in 2010. "Gangs of bullies" does not in any way seem to characterize the polite and thoughtful discussion that went on in the AfD linked above. What actually does constitute bullying is wild accusations like this one. WP:BLP1E is policy, and with good cause.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:35, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for studying this issue. I agree the notability seems near the 2010 level and could be decided by review of newspaper archives (at libraries?). Looks like the 50-50% AfD !votes should have totaled to "Keep" with request to add old newspaper cites to disprove BLP1E, as wp:GNG notable, but perhaps the closing admin felt pressure to "delete when borderline" and now WP has a hole where The New York Times thinks the guy was a topic, plus his Obama "target" became mayor of Sacramento. -Wikid77 (talk) 17:04, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
The last deletion does not seem right. To begin with, it's a 3 to 4 vote taken as a consensus to delete. And the nominator's premise - that the article was "an attempt to do an endrun around an AFD deletion" of the Gerald Walpin firing article - is directly contradicted by the closer's comment at that AFD that "At the moment, we have an article on Gerald Walpin - this article doesn't need to exist alongside that, and indeed, in its present form, clearly shouldn't." Never underestimate the Wikilawyering capabilities of Delete voters, as in this case, where they literally have deleted two articles each because the other existed. I've noted the delete voters have a whole playbook of tricks like that -- editing an article down to nothing and voting to delete because it doesn't have much content, nominating an image for deletion on Wikipedia while nominating it on Commons for some other issue, removing an image from an article so they can delete it as not in use on Commons (preferably while starting an edit war to get the article locked down in the form without the image). Maybe Keep voters have a playbook, but it's all white magic - building the article, finding sources, getting material. There's nothing to feel guilty about with those sorts of tricks. Wnt (talk) 19:04, 28 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Same tactics have been used to delete useful templates in TfDs closed by non-admin users (then ask admin delete), such as Template:Convert/2 which bypassed a calculation bug in Lua script version of {convert} but deleted as if had no extra value as a template. Then Template:Convert/3 was deleted per false rationale that it followed TfD logic for {convert/2}, when instead it allowed 2 sets of free-form text inside a conversion, as providing a major feature not possible with {convert} nor any other template. For comparison, note the range error "41-41" of 2 different values by Lua {convert} during 2013-2016:
  • {convert/old|105|-|106|F|C} gives: 105–106 °F (40.6–41.1 °C)
  • {convert |105 |-|106 |F|C} gives: 105–106 °F (41–41 °C)
  • {convert/2 |105|-|106|F|C} fixed: 105–106 °F (40.6–41.1 °C)
The correct result range "40.6 - 41.1" was provided by both {convert/old} and {convert/2} even in 2013, while the conversion bug has remained in the protected Lua module of {convert} for 3 years, but proving how use of protected Lua templates can lock-in severe bugs for years. That is the ironic horror, as Lua {convert} can do many features very quickly, except calculate conversions correctly for 3 years. -Wikid77 (talk) 15:13, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
I can see some logic though to not starting a new template when the main one is bugged - surely one template is enough and it needs to be right! Why couldn't you get template editing permission anyway? Testing: 105–106 °F (41–41 °C); 105–106 °F (40.6–41.1 °C); 105–106 °F (41–41 °C). Hmmm, looks like adding a parameter "1" after the last temperature fixes it, so a separate template isn't really required; but the most obvious thing from reading the help page is adding a parameter "precision=1" but that doesn't work. Why not? I think there's a bug here; should be fixed... anyway, we should take this to the template page. Wnt (talk) 18:58, 29 June 2016 (UTC)
The precision problems were much more difficult than just the simple 105-106 case above; and easier to fix in the limited wp:wrapper template {convert/2} than risk altering the main template used in 500,000 pages; see below "Same tactics deleted Template:Convert/2 which fixed Convert bugs". -Wikid77 (talk) 17:37, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
Just to follow up, I should say that after a conversation with User:Johnuniq and User:DePiep at Template talk:Convert, it was decided that the named precision= parameter should be taken out of the documentation. The same thing can be done by putting a number in the next unnamed parameter field as I did above, which is used in a ridiculous number of pages, and they didn't want to complicate things. They indeed don't seem in a rush to fix the 105-106 default behavior, but ... well, it's tricky. I mean, do we want all the temperature tables to go from 96 (37) to 105 (40.6)? It's gonna look like crap and then people have to add -1s at all the entries over 100 Fahrenheit, everywhere the template is used ... God knows how much chaos it will be. I see there's already special code for converting temperature in the module, so I'm thinking this was a feature more than a bug - though yes, that remains debatable. Wnt (talk) 15:18, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
@Wnt: the overrounding as "105 (41)" might seem simpler than "(40.6)", but do we want all the temperature tables to go from 105 (41) to 106 (41), as if both temperatures are identical? If so, a parameter "prec=" could be added to use {{{prec|0}}} across a whole temperature chart. Plus actually, many of our editors have complained of overrounding {convert|100|m} as "100 metres (330 ft)" then showing "101 metres (331 ft)" as if only 1 ft separates 100 and 101 metres; this has been trouble for mountain peaks also: {convert|1300|m} as "1,300 metres (4,300 ft)" but {convert|1301|m} as "1,301 metres (4,268 ft)" as if 1301m were somehow 32 ft (9.8 m) lower than 1300 metres! -Wikid77 (talk) 13:23, 1 July 2016 (UTC)
  • Same tactics deleted Template:Convert/2 which fixed Convert bugs: Please note the tactics (to delete Template:Convert/2) had totally ignored how {convert/2} had corrected the conversion precision, now 3 years ago. These precision problems have been very difficult to fix, beyond the trivial case for 105-106 degrees F. Consider, below, the more-difficult decimal precision of 105.001, solved by the now-deleted {convert/2}:
  • {convert/old|105|-|106|F|C}     gives: 105–106 °F (40.6–41.1 °C)
  • {convert/old|105|-|105.001|F|C} gives: 105–105.001 °F (40.6–40.5561 °C) ← note error where lower 105 converts higher
  • {convert |105 |-|105.001 |F|C} gives: 105–105.001 °F (40.556–40.556 °C)   ← note error as both values convert to same amount 40.556 °C
  • {convert/2 |105|-|105.001|F|C} fixed: 105–105.001 °F (40.5556–40.5561 °C)
Note the extreme precision, needed to correctly convert temperature "105–105.001 °F" as "40.5556–40.5561 °C" with 4 decimal digits of precision, and how many users do you think would know how to force that precision from the current Lua {convert} template? Even for me, with a degree in mathematics (as well as computer science degrees), this had been an extremely difficult precision calculation to fix, as shown by the 4-decimal precision above. In such cases, we don't want users to struggle to overcome the precision bugs in Convert, but Convert/2 had automatically fixed the precision. I think we have reached an intellectual limit, where typical users cannot easily understand the calculations handled by such templates, and cannot make an informed decision about the value of keeping a template. Meanwhile, fixing {convert} to calculate the correct precision will be very difficult, and hence Convert/2 is still needed 3 years later for such cases (and some which are even more complex precision than what I noted above). BTW: Jimbo has been interested in these types of technical, complex limits to our technology, but does not usually have time to research the details. In this case, the template operation is so complex that most users cannot judge when to delete a template, unable to easily understand the technical problems. In the case above, having a high-quality wrapper template, as Convert/2, allowed bypassing {convert} to automatically correct the calculations with high precision. -Wikid77 (talk) 17:37, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
@Wikid77: I'm sorry, but to me it looks like we can just use {{convert|105.000|-|105.001|F|C|4}} = 105.000–105.001 °F (40.5556–40.5561 °C). If adding a "|4" at the end rather than a "/2" at the beginning is the cost to avoid having the fork of a huge complicated module, it seems pretty cheap. Also, I have more tolerance for a deletion in this context than in the context of an article, because it's essentially redundant content that you could keep in userspace anyway - the deletion just means they don't want people adding it until somebody is stuck maintaining both modules. Wnt (talk) 23:51, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── So you thought the corrected calculations in {convert/2} came at the cost of a complete fork of the Lua script Module:Convert, but instead {convert/2} actually worked as a mere wp:wrapper template (or frontend) to {convert}, as so versatile and maintenance-free, that {convert/2} had calculated the correct precision with either the Lua {convert} or the prior markup-based {convert/old} during the past 4 years. But beyond correcting the calculations from {convert}, the {convert/2} wrapper could also correctly calculate 2 separate conversions spread across a sentence. An example would be a change in length, as 2 related values, old and new, within a sentence. See example:

  • The fence length of {convert |100|m|ft} gives:
    The fence length of 100 metres (330 ft)
  • The fence length of {convert/2 |100|was increased to|100.5|m|ft} gave:
    The fence length of 100 was increased to 100.5 metres (328.1 was increased to 329.7 ft)
In that 100-metre example, {convert} gives a value of "330 ft" but {convert/2} correctly shows "328.1 ft" increased to 100.5 m as "329.7 ft". Hence, {convert/2} could also correctly calculate precision for 2 conversions at once in free-form text, as a feature not possible even with the Lua {convert} after 3 years. -Wikid77 (talk) 12:52, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

Request for resources to search recent changes and for a unified ranked backlog[edit]

Jimbo, would you please see [1] and [2]. How can we move forward on searching recent changes and making a unified WP:BACKLOG list? Do the people you are asking for endowment money know we don't have enough to do those things yet? How can the community help you make such improvements? EllenCT (talk) 15:19, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

It's a good idea, but note the meta:2015 Community Wishlist Survey took the top 10 ideas while 97 didn't make the cut (though they said they might try some of those anyway). It might be worth asking whether the resources are available to turn that up to something more like 50%. It may be tempting to start an informal list of ideas (old and new) at meta:2016 Community Wishlist Survey, if you have the time to go through the losing ideas from previous years, and add more, to have a big batch of ideas ready and waiting before the official two-week period starts in November. Wnt (talk) 15:29, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
Would you please do that? I appreciate that you value my judgement, but I am only interested in the improvements which I think will have the greatest benefit per time and effort, and when I last looked through that list, most of the pending ideas did not seem anywhere near these two by that measure. EllenCT (talk) 16:51, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
They did more than "try" some of the others; one is marked "Done" while several others are in active investigation. I was pleased to see how many had some activity.--S Philbrick(Talk) 22:17, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Jimbo, if a benefactor who has not been involved in anti-competitive hiring practices agrees to donate $50 million, I will name my planned unified backlog list after them. Does that help? EllenCT (talk) 16:56, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Well, if the name would be a form of branding, such as the "Donna's Donuts VisualEditor" or such, then I suspect there might be an uproar among the editing community. -Wikid77 (talk) 17:50, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
I would not name my preferred backlog list after non-nutritious food. If you don't think you can trust me, it's your loss. EllenCT (talk) 21:07, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
After having slept on this, Jimbo, I suggest that there are many things the Foundation could name after potential benefactors which would be potentially more attractive to well-heeled donors than the world's biggest to-do list, but my offer stands. EllenCT (talk) 18:57, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

Article about TPO[edit]

Note: The content below is a repost of a comment I made here a week ago which no one responded to before it was archived. I hope to get a response from someone, preferably Mr. Wales, this time around.

I was interested in seeing if anyone has a subscription to The Times and could therefore read this recent article they ran about The People's Operator, as well as hearing Mr. Wales' response to it. Everymorning (talk) 19:12, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Please see page 6 of [3]. EllenCT (talk) 20:59, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
I'm confused--what does CONOISE-G architecture have to do with this topic? Everymorning (talk) 21:16, 30 June 2016 (UTC)
I expect Jimbo to disrupt the field by introducing arguments and evidence at more transitions than simply that of the contract management component to the policing agent. Investors who can't see that may regret their divestment. EllenCT (talk) 21:22, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Editing News #2—2016[edit]

Editing News #2—2016 Read this in another languageSubscription list for this multilingual newsletter

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Philosophical question; how was Italy?[edit]

Jimbo, do you see the isomorphism between arguments in [4] and talk page discussions as e.g. per [5]? Do you see the isomorphism between those and scripts of interacting agents in Lincos (artificial language)? Do you think a Lincos Wikipedia would be more valuable than Wikidata? Why or why not?

By the way, how was Wikimania this year? What was your favorite part? EllenCT (talk) 21:12, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Here are some resources about Wikimania 2016.
(My translation from Italian to English follows.)
For about a week the small village of Esino Lario has brought together more than a thousand Wikipedians on the shores of Lake Como. The objective? To develop together the new frontiers of digital knowledge.
A small village nestled on the mountains of Lombardy, with Lake Como in the background, a few houses and 760 inhabitants: thus appears the little center of Esino Lario (Lecco), which for about a week has nevertheless become the center of the world, or at least of the digital one. Here, in fact, was the 2016 edition of Wikimania, the convention dedicated to the users who contribute to the development of the most famous online encyclopedia of the planet: Wikipedia. This year's convention was the first gathering of Wikipedians organized in Italy.
The objective of Wikimania 2916 "was that of making known to the world that even a little mountain reality like Esino Lario can be part of a shared and global knowledge", the organizers emphasized. Two worlds in contrast, those of Esino Lario and of the colossus of online information, which has made necessary some "special" preparation: in the months preceding the event, lessons in English were in fact organized to facilitate communication between residents and guests.
"An immense thanks goes to all the volunteers", said today Carlo Mario Pensa, president of the Wikimania Committee and of the Museo delle Grigne. And he added: "At the end of Wikimania there will remain a spirit a little different for the young ones, for us, for the territory and the example for our rulers". Iolanda Pensa, the inventor of the initiative, has reaffirmed the concept which has led to "carrying the technological event, in a very remote place, the desire to conquer a challenge".
In conclusion, Wikipedia has brought the eyes of all the world to the little village nestled in the mountains of Lombardy. Esino Lario will be able now to benefit from optical fiber and from free wi-fi, and certainly will be a smarter and more international village.
Wavelength (talk) 20:22, 1 July 2016 (UTC)